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Hourly Wigan to Liverpool trains on a Sunday

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Mikey C

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Yes I'm a spoilt Londoner, but I was still shocked travelling from Blackpool to Liverpool on Sunday morning (11:32) that only an hourly service operates on the Wigan to Liverpool (via St Helens Central) corridor on Sunday. With Liverpool playing at 4:30pm that day, the 6 car 331 was completely rammed, and desperately slow at stations as people tried to cram themselves on. Not helped by the short platforms meaning everyone was cramming on the same parts of the train.

Firstly it seems mad to spend all the money on electrification and shiny new trains, and then run so few of them on Sunday full stop.

Are any extra services laid on when Liverpool or Everton play on a Sunday? It does seem that when a game is at 4:30, a lot of people will arrive early and make a day of it, so the extra traffic is for a longer period than just the usual before and after match traffic you usually get.
 
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AMD

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It should be two per hour per the original May 2018 plan but that was never realised, and is unlikely to be for a while as there's barely enough traincrew to cover the service as it is.
Also as an aside Mon-Sat is still only 2 per hour (1x semi fast to Blackpool & 1x stopper to Wigan), and there's no prospect of resumption of the second stopper until at least next May.
It has to be also noted that internally train crew (conductors particularly) don't like pairs of 331s on this route, specifically because most of the train doesn't fit on anywhere (apart from Wigan, St Helens & Lime St).
 

AM9

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It should be two per hour per the original May 2018 plan but that was never realised, and is unlikely to be for a while as there's barely enough traincrew to cover the service as it is.
Also as an aside Mon-Sat is still only 2 per hour (1x semi fast to Blackpool & 1x stopper to Wigan), and there's no prospect of resumption of the second stopper until at least next May.
It has to be also noted that internally train crew (conductors particularly) don't like pairs of 331s on this route, specifically because most of the train doesn't fit on anywhere (apart from Wigan, St Helens & Lime St).
Another brownie point for ordering those trains in a hurry. :)
 

Starmill

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They've got SDO, haven't they?
They do. But Northern have never got the short platform information onto screens at stations, one of the few TOCs who don't do so. Which means that it's entirely reliant on the onboard automatic announcements and screens. This information isn't provided until your stop is next, and sometimes, those give no information at all.

If you're in coach six from Liverpool and you need to be in coach four to leave at, say, Eccleston Park, you might not physically be able to make it through the train. I've had that happen to me at Clapham Junction where I was on an over-formed train i.e. I was in a coach that was off the platform but the warning wasn't given until we were approaching the station, and it was too crowded for us to make it forward through the train to a door that opens.

Yes I'm a spoilt Londoner, but I was still shocked travelling from Blackpool to Liverpool on Sunday morning (11:32) that only an hourly service operates on the Wigan to Liverpool (via St Helens Central) corridor on Sunday. With Liverpool playing at 4:30pm that day, the 6 car 331 was completely rammed, and desperately slow at stations as people tried to cram themselves on. Not helped by the short platforms meaning everyone was cramming on the same parts of the train.

Firstly it seems mad to spend all the money on electrification and shiny new trains, and then run so few of them on Sunday full stop.

Are any extra services laid on when Liverpool or Everton play on a Sunday? It does seem that when a game is at 4:30, a lot of people will arrive early and make a day of it, so the extra traffic is for a longer period than just the usual before and after match traffic you usually get.
As suggested by AM9 above, two trains per hour were introduced between Manchester and Wigan via Atherton and between Liverpool and Wigan via St Helens Central in 2017 and 2018, but these did not survive.
 
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scrapy

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They've got SDO, haven't they?
When only one door from the rear set is on the platform dwell times are unreasonably long and passengers want to stay near the front door of the fourth carriage so won't move down backwards as means they are further from the exit at Lime St and when busy reliant on the conductor being able to get through the train to the correct door to make the most of SDO.

SDO (and ASDO if it's a system that works, and northerns doesn't) are great at odd stations where maybe one or two doors are off a platform, but not for a full route where the vast majority of stations are two short for more than 4 cars.

The plan was never to run 6 cars on this route and it's supposedly a stop gap til Dec 22 when the 6 cars will move east. Frequency will have to increase certainly Monday to Saturday as 3 and 4 car trains just haven't the capacity.
 
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Mikey C

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It should be two per hour per the original May 2018 plan but that was never realised, and is unlikely to be for a while as there's barely enough traincrew to cover the service as it is.
Also as an aside Mon-Sat is still only 2 per hour (1x semi fast to Blackpool & 1x stopper to Wigan), and there's no prospect of resumption of the second stopper until at least next May.
It has to be also noted that internally train crew (conductors particularly) don't like pairs of 331s on this route, specifically because most of the train doesn't fit on anywhere (apart from Wigan, St Helens & Lime St).
It would make life a lot easier I imagine if the 331s had been fitted with end gangways, like the 196s, thus enabling people to spread themselves between units.
 

Urban-Savage

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Any danger of the twice hourly Wigan / Lime St Stopper being reintroduced Mon to Sat - the hourly service is woefully inadequate for the less principle stations along the route like Prescotwhich now is a sizeable commuting area.

What is reason for the delay in re introduction?
ta
 

Bevan Price

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You were lucky to have a 6 coach train. Pre-electrification, you often got 2 coach Pacers or 150s on Sundays when Everton or Liverpool had home matches, (or when there were other events in the city centre). Passengers left behind at intermediate stations was not uncommon. .
 

Starmill

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What is reason for the delay in re introduction?
Nobody is particularly eager to fund the cost of providing additional driver and conductor diagrams, and, to an extent, funding the cost of the additional maintenance mileage. Same goes for a large number of services which have been tacitly abandoned permanently.
 

Mikey C

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Nobody is particularly eager to fund the cost of providing additional driver and conductor diagrams, and, to an extent, funding the cost of the additional maintenance mileage. Same goes for a large number of services which have been tacitly abandoned permanently.
Maybe they should stop running trains altogether, thus further reducing staff costs, and removing all the wear and tear on the trains and infrastructure...
 

TheSel

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Maybe they should stop running trains altogether, thus further reducing staff costs, and removing all the wear and tear on the trains and infrastructure...
You forgot to mention that another benefit of this 'solution' would be a significant reduction in the lost revenue due to fare evasion! ;)
 

Starmill

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Maybe they should stop running trains altogether, thus further reducing staff costs, and removing all the wear and tear on the trains and infrastructure...
Of course, that's exactly what Grant Shapps and Rishi Sunak would do if they thought they could get away with it.

While I couldn't agree more with the implication here, which is that there should be much higher funding for public transport generally, I am also of the view that achieving the best value for money with the funding that the railway industry already has is the best way to secure more in the future, rather than just demanding it. I'm aware that's not a popular take on this forum because it means some difficult trade-offs need to be made, but that's what everyone in the public sector faces.
 

Mikey C

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Of course, that's exactly what Grant Shapps and Rishi Sunak would do if they thought they could get away with it.

While I couldn't agree more with the implication here, which is that there should be much higher funding for public transport generally, I am also of the view that achieving the best value for money with the funding that the railway industry already has is the best way to secure more in the future, rather than just demanding it. I'm aware that's not a popular take on this forum because it means some difficult trade-offs need to be made, but that's what everyone in the public sector faces.
This line isn't a sleepy backwater line though

It's one which has been (expensively) electrified in recent years, presumably because it's considered an important local or strategic route. You don't electrify lines if you expect to run a bare minimum service on them
 

Starmill

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This line isn't a sleepy backwater line though
Same goes for hundreds of routes and stations nationally which are facing service cuts.
You don't electrify lines if you expect to run a bare minimum service on them
One of the reasons why it's next to impossible to get any money to electrify any routes in this country, yes.

presumably because it's considered an important local or strategic route.
Really it was just good luck.
 

XAM2175

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... presumably because it's considered an important local or strategic route ...
Really it was just good luck.
The main rationale was to allow TPE to run all-electric services between Liverpool and the north WCML / Scotland, was it not? Electrifying local/interurban services along that stretch just happened to be a bonus.
 

Starmill

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The main rationale was to allow TPE to run all-electric services between Liverpool and the north WCML / Scotland, was it not? Electrifying local/interurban services along that stretch just happened to be a bonus.
Unfortunately not. You can't build an electrification business case on the basis of three trains per day! In this case EMUs already have a route from Liverpool to Wigan via Newton-le-Willows so that wouldn't generate noticeable benefits for electrification from Huyton to Wigan North Western via St Helens Central.
 

XAM2175

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Unfortunately not. You can't build an electrification business case on the basis of three trains per day!
Well, not a good one, anyway :p

And yes I'd forgotten the existing route so carry on please, everybody, nothing to see here!
 

frodshamfella

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This line isn't a sleepy backwater line though

It's one which has been (expensively) electrified in recent years, presumably because it's considered an important local or strategic route. You don't electrify lines if you expect to run a bare minimum service on them
Isn't this a real pathetic state of affairs....keep hearing that well used phrase "levelling up " !!
 
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As someone who lives on the line, the downgrading to an hourly service has created issues for me, personally. Not necessarily due to the reduction in service - I'd rather have a reliable hourly service, than an unreliable half hourly one - but the connections for journeys between Garswood/Bryn & Euxton/Leyland (a route I take several times a week) are terrible, often requiring a wait of over an hour in Wigan to make an "official" connection.

Edit: typo corrected
 
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As someone who lives on the line, the downgrading to an hourly service has created issues for me, personally. Not necessarily due to the reduction in service - I'd rather have a reliable hourly service, than an unreliable half hourly one - but the connections for journeys between Garswood/Bryn & Euxton/Leyland (a route I take several times a week) are terrible, often requiring a wait of over an hour in Wigan to make an "official" connection.

Edit: typo corrected
I've witnessed this routes fortunes from late BR through to the current post covid timetable. Although I am now an infrequent user as I don't live locally anymore.

I Can say it's always been a bit like snakes and ladders with the timetables and rolling stock allocation. I can understand why the pax get frustrated.

Can you remind me ( my brain is a bit fuzzy now I'm old) which year the Sunday service all stations started up? One that gave Bryn / Eccleston Park a service for the first time in living memory please?
 
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Can you remind me ( my brain is a bit fuzzy now I'm old) which year the Sunday service all stations started up? One that gave Bryn / Eccleston Park a service for the first time in living memory please?
From memory (the oracle that Wikipedia agrees,) it was the December 2017 timetable that saw these trains introduced. I do however remember them being cancelled quite a lot, though.
 

geoffk

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Maybe they should stop running trains altogether, thus further reducing staff costs, and removing all the wear and tear on the trains and infrastructure...
Also the Lime Street to Warrington BQ service is still "missing", meaning big gaps in service at Huyton and only an hourly service at Whiston, Rainhill and St. Helens Junction. Living now in Devon, I see that we are not too badly off here and even have a reopening to look forward to.
 
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glynmonhughes

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Yes I'm a spoilt Londoner, but I was still shocked travelling from Blackpool to Liverpool on Sunday morning (11:32) that only an hourly service operates on the Wigan to Liverpool (via St Helens Central) corridor on Sunday. With Liverpool playing at 4:30pm that day, the 6 car 331 was completely rammed, and desperately slow at stations as people tried to cram themselves on. Not helped by the short platforms meaning everyone was cramming on the same parts of the train.

Firstly it seems mad to spend all the money on electrification and shiny new trains, and then run so few of them on Sunday full stop.

Are any extra services laid on when Liverpool or Everton play on a Sunday? It does seem that when a game is at 4:30, a lot of people will arrive early and make a day of it, so the extra traffic is for a longer period than just the usual before and after match traffic you usually get.
Welcome to our world!
 

childwallblues

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Also the Lime Street to Warrington BQ service is still "missing", meaning big gaps in service at Huyton and only an hourly service at Whiston, Rainhill and St. Helens Junction. Living now in Devon, I see that we are not too badly off here and even have a reopening to look forward to.
Lime Street to Warrington Bank Quay is supposed to restart in December.
 
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