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How do people afford a car?

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Silver Cobra

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Have you got a bike?
I do and I was using it for around 6-8 months last year to travel between home and the station. However, after I stopped using it over the winter months I ultimately decided not to continue using it anymore and returned to just walking. While I did persevere with it for those 6-8 months, I didn't really gel with it, which is what led to me giving it up entirely. While walking does eat up 2 hours of my day (1 hour each way), I'm happy to stick with doing that.
 
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Bletchleyite

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I do and I was using it for around 6-8 months last year to travel between home and the station. However, after I stopped using it over the winter months I ultimately decided not to continue using it anymore and returned to just walking. While I did persevere with it for those 6-8 months, I didn't really gel with it, which is what led to me giving it up entirely. While walking does eat up 2 hours of my day (1 hour each way), I'm happy to stick with doing that.

Have you considered trying different types of bike? I have never been able to ride a drop barred road bike comfortably, but get on very well with a more "sit up and beg" style design.

If I had to book accommodation for every race I would have been put off as it would be so expensive on top of the race fee and travel, doubling the cost every race. Most regional races cost about £13 to register, and if I can get cheap travel the cost of racing is really low.

But you'd need to look at the whole package. Assuming you'd have the same level of pay (i.e., pretty much, you're either work-from-home or on or near minimum) your rent in Manchester, provided you avoid trendy bits, would likely be about 1/3 of what it would be near the centre of London. Thus, you've potentially got several hundreds of pounds in your pocket a month by living up north that you'd not have in London. And Manchester is now quite expensive for the North; if you lived in say Preston (random example, I'd not necessarily recommend it as it's not that nice) it'd be lower still. You might even find you can afford to buy a house or flat.

Look at it this way: if say you spent £100 on accommodation for each race, and you did one every weekend, that'd cost you £450 a month on average. If renting a 1 bed flat, it is pretty certain it'd be more than £450 cheaper to do so in say a small Northern town than anywhere near central London. Even in Milton Keynes you'll pay about 1/3 to 1/2 London rents, and that's only half an hour in.

That, back to the thread, is one way a car is more affordable outside London. You spend less on housing (quite a lot less if you don't live in one of the very major cities), and the car costs less to park etc.
 
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miklcct

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But you'd need to look at the whole package. Assuming you'd have the same level of pay (i.e., pretty much, you're either work-from-home or on or near minimum) your rent in Manchester, provided you avoid trendy bits, would likely be about 1/3 of what it would be near the centre of London. Thus, you've potentially got several hundreds of pounds in your pocket a month by living up north that you'd not have in London.

Getting the same level of pay is unrealistic. My prior research suggests that the market pay for a software developer with about 3 years of experience is about £55k in London, while only £35-40k outside.

Of course if I am to start my business this won't become part of the equation, but if my office is located in Manchester I will not be able to serve the largest number of clients by undercutting my competitors on price, which necessitates minimising travel cost as well.

Look at it this way: if say you spent £100 on accommodation for each race, and you did one every weekend, that'd cost you £450 a month on average. If renting a 1 bed flat, it is pretty certain it'd be more than £450 cheaper to do so in say a small Northern town than anywhere near central London. Even in Milton Keynes you'll pay about 1/3 to 1/2 London rents, and that's only half an hour in.
If I were to cut £450 from my outer London home rent, it will have to be below £300 pcm up North which I don't think it's realistic.
That, back to the thread, is one way a car is more affordable outside London. You spend less on housing (quite a lot less if you don't live in one of the very major cities), and the car costs less to park etc.
I have got a bike (costing me under £100, although I have spent about £200 in the add-ons and maintenance afterwards!) already with the intention of stop relying on £1.65 buses when I need to go somewhere not served by the direct railways, and now I mainly use the Overground for long-distance travel in London as it only costs me £1.05 per trip off-peak with a Railcard added into my Oyster. My friend also does the same thing to the extent that he even avoids any NR lines on the NR fare scale, such as Wimbledon - Clapham Junction.

With a return ticket costing £3.95 (Railcard-discounted) between Cricklewood and anywhere on the North London Line, half a year of tickets already worth a good bike already if I travel 4 round-trips per week!
 

Ianigsy

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I've managed to reach the age of 50 without ever learning to drive and I live about 12 miles outside Leeds. At the moment it's not really a viable prospect- I can't really afford the lessons or to actually buy the car and couldn't justify the running costs unless I was going to use it to commute every day. Plus I'd also.lose about 90 minutes' reading/napping time on the bus every day!
 

IanXC

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In terms of the question of late rail connections its worth noting that one of the objectives of the May 2018 Northern timetable was to improve 'after 2230' last services, hence:

2231 Hull to Leeds
2231 Sheffield to Leeds via Barnsley
2238 Sheffield to Huddersfield
2242 Leeds to Manchester Victoria
2243 Sheffield to Worksop
2245 Hull to Sheffield
2250 Leeds to Knottingley via Westgate
2250 Huddersfield to Sheffield
2251 Hull to Doncaster
2253 Newcastle to Hexham
2257 Leeds to Blackburn
2300 Sheffield to Hull
2300 Leeds to Hull
2302 Leeds to Sheffield via Barnsley
2305 Sheffield to Doncaster
2311 Leeds to Sheffield via Moorthorpe
2315 Sheffield to Leeds via Moorthorpe
2315 York to Leeds
2318 Leeds to Knottingley via Castleford
2318 Sheffield to Wakefield Kirkgate
2319 York to Selby
2320 Leeds to Skipton
2325 Leeds to York
2327 Sheffield to Manchester Piccadilly
2331 Leeds to Doncaster
2336 Leeds to Ilkley
2339 Leeds to Harrogate

(All these have survived Covid as they're all in today's timetable.)
 

Jozhua

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I live about 2/3 miles from the city centre in Nottingham. 3 min walk to bus stop with services every 15 or so minutes through the night - 5 min walk to tram stop with services every 3-5 minutes until 11/12 at night.

I also have a bike, there are a limited number of places to ride without getting killed, but still enough to be useful.

I chose to live close to my job, with the trade off that I will need to move house should I ever change job (selling/buying property is not easy though, but it is very rent-able)

It is my experience that once you move out of "home", getting a driving license becomes significantly more expensive and difficult, because you lose out on cheaper practice in a relative's car.

Now with inflation and cost of living like it is, it would be financially impossible for me to learn to drive, even on a salary around ~25k.

Getting around Nottingham is a breeze. Nottingham probably has one of the best run transit systems of any city in the UK, especially once you consider it's size. Proper integrated ticketing with smart cards, trams and very well run, clean buses. Did I mention the buses are almost entirely run by the local council? :oops:

Unfortunately, moving around outside of Nottingham becomes more painful. Really been let down by rail service post pandemic, especially to the destinations I want to visit the most. At least travelling to London on business isn't too bad...
 

johncrossley

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Getting around Nottingham is a breeze. Nottingham probably has one of the best run transit systems of any city in the UK, especially once you consider it's size. Proper integrated ticketing with smart cards, trams and very well run, clean buses. Did I mention the buses are almost entirely run by the local council? :oops:

By UK standards, Nottingham is good. However, I wouldn't say it has "proper" integrated ticketing. NCT and TrentBarton have their own separate tickets. Changing between buses means double fare, or more if they are from different companies. The council owned operator still has to follow the rules of deregulation just like any other operator outside London.
 

ChrisC

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By UK standards, Nottingham is good. However, I wouldn't say it has "proper" integrated ticketing. NCT and TrentBarton have their own separate tickets. Changing between buses means double fare, or more if they are from different companies. The council owned operator still has to follow the rules of deregulation just like any other operator outside London.
Nottingham City has very good integrated ticketing within the Robin Hood Network Area. That is the whole of the tram network and buses within the city boundary and extends to areas just outside the city boundary like Arnold, Beeston, Carlton, West Bridgford etc. The smart card is valid on the trams and some bus operators including NCT and TrentBarton and the paper ticket is valid on many more buses and also trains. The daily cap has risen recently and I think it is now £5.60 if you use more than one operator. There are other more flexible tickets available on the smart card valid over multiple days which save money.

Outside of the Robin Hood Network area in the Nottinghamshire County Council area there is only very limited integrated ticketing and no multi operator bus tickets. Journeys outside of the city can be very expensive especially if buses from more than one operator is used. Journeys of only a few miles, where two tickets are required can very often add up to well over £10. This is especially the case in the Mansfield area if you need to buy both TrentBarton and Stagecoach tickets to complete a journey.

I live outside the City boundary and it costs me £6.50 for a TrentBarton day ticket if travelling if after 9am to travel into the city. It’s considerably more on TrentBarton before 9am. Then if I use any other operator within the city, including the tram I have to switch to the Robin Hood Card so it quickly adds up to more than £10. I therefore always use my car to drive to of the park and ride sites within the Robin Hood Card area.
 
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cactustwirly

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I live about 2/3 miles from the city centre in Nottingham. 3 min walk to bus stop with services every 15 or so minutes through the night - 5 min walk to tram stop with services every 3-5 minutes until 11/12 at night.

I also have a bike, there are a limited number of places to ride without getting killed, but still enough to be useful.

I chose to live close to my job, with the trade off that I will need to move house should I ever change job (selling/buying property is not easy though, but it is very rent-able)

It is my experience that once you move out of "home", getting a driving license becomes significantly more expensive and difficult, because you lose out on cheaper practice in a relative's car.

Now with inflation and cost of living like it is, it would be financially impossible for me to learn to drive, even on a salary around ~25k.

Getting around Nottingham is a breeze. Nottingham probably has one of the best run transit systems of any city in the UK, especially once you consider it's size. Proper integrated ticketing with smart cards, trams and very well run, clean buses. Did I mention the buses are almost entirely run by the local council? :oops:

Unfortunately, moving around outside of Nottingham becomes more painful. Really been let down by rail service post pandemic, especially to the destinations I want to visit the most. At least travelling to London on business isn't too bad...

It's the same in Reading, the council run buses within Reading are ok.
The buses that run outside to places like Bracknell are awful and basically unusable unless you are desperate (also run by Reading buses)
They use clapped out 12 year old buses, charge ridiculously expensive fares and the buses are often 20 minutes late, or they miss out your stop, the drivers are rude as well.
It's also so slow, so I only use it when we go for drinks after work. I prefer to drive as I can get to work in a sensible time and it works out cheaper than the bus.

My colleagues are considering getting cars so they don't have to rely on the awful bus service.
 

pitdiver

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Nottingham City has very good integrated ticketing within the Robin Hood Network Area. That is the whole of the tram network and buses within the city boundary and extends to areas just outside the city boundary like Arnold, Beeston, Carlton, West Bridgford etc. The smart card is valid on the trams and some bus operators including NCT and TrentBarton and the paper ticket is valid on many more buses and also trains. The daily cap has risen recently and I think it is now £5.60 if you use more than one operator. There are other more flexible tickets available on the smart card valid over multiple days which save money.

Outside of the Robin Hood Network area in the Nottinghamshire County Council area there is only very limited integrated ticketing and no multi operator bus tickets. Journeys outside of the city can be very expensive especially if buses from more than one operator is used. Journeys of only a few miles, where two tickets are required can very often add up to well over £10. This is especially the case in the Mansfield area if you need to buy both TrentBarton and Stagecoach tickets to complete a journey.

I live outside the City boundary and it costs me £6.50 for a TrentBarton day ticket if travelling if after 9am to travel into the city. It’s considerably more on TrentBarton before 9am. Then if I use any other operator within the city, including the tram I have to switch to the Robin Hood Card so it quickly adds up to more than £10. I therefore always use my car to drive to of the park and ride sites within the Robin Hood Card area.
I thoroughly agree fares outside the City boundary are high> I live just outside Mansfield so i am aware as my daughter uses the buses.Fortunately I have an ENCTS card plus priv rate on NationalTail
 

johncrossley

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Nottingham City has very good integrated ticketing within the Robin Hood Network Area. That is the whole of the tram network and buses within the city boundary and extends to areas just outside the city boundary like Arnold, Beeston, Carlton, West Bridgford etc. The smart card is valid on the trams and some bus operators including NCT and TrentBarton and the paper ticket is valid on many more buses and also trains. The daily cap has risen recently and I think it is now £5.60 if you use more than one operator. There are other more flexible tickets available on the smart card valid over multiple days which save money.

It depends what you call "very good". Integrated ticketing should mean that you can make a single journey involving a change of bus or tram at the same price as a single journey undertaken on a single vehicle. That isn't the case in Nottingham. If you change from one bus to another you pay twice. If you change from a bus to a tram you pay twice. Even London doesn't have "very good" integrated ticketing, in my view. Yes, you can change from one bus to another, or even between bus and tram for £1.65. But if you change from bus to tube you pay twice.
 

Stewart2887

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I've just bought a new VW Golf, hard to get these days. Two years servicing £200, insurance for wife and myself £220 pa. Living in a rural area public transport is OK if we want to go to Oxford or Swindon. car will do me for years, couldn't justify an electric for holidays etc Local Stagecoach do ~£6 rangers Oxford/Swindon/Bristol/Cheltenham but thats only any good if you want to go there. Local shops etc more important, I wouldn't want to be denied these things. Working from home means the car is parked up most of the week. Until I have to go back to the office...
 

Jozhua

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Good points made about city boundaries affecting fares. It is quite funny to see how drastically downhill things go once outside of the Nottingham city zone, where the council is more involved with public transport affairs.

Interesting points about driving to a RH area and then travelling from there.

It's so frustrating - a simple, fair, fare system is one of the easiest ways to make your transport system attractive to riders. In this aspect, most UK operators fail miserably.

I have said that it is in the best interest for operators to work together - their main source of competition is the car, not other buses. Some are probably aware of that, but the UK anti-competition laws trip them up on even making schedules/fares work better.

There is an element of "destructive" competition to public transport which makes fully deregulated privatisation quite a challenging prospect.

User experience is so so underappreciated. Cars are expensive to run, get caught in traffic and obviously have a host of negative impacts on our cities, but the user experience is pretty great. You hop in and you just go.

Using the tram in Nottingham is great - it comes so frequently I rarely check timetables. Missing one is not a huge deal. I actually often take pretty long journeys on the tram that *could* be faster by train, but because the tram involves no changes and comes frequently enough I don't have to work around it, I take the tram every time.
By UK standards, Nottingham is good. However, I wouldn't say it has "proper" integrated ticketing. NCT and TrentBarton have their own separate tickets. Changing between buses means double fare, or more if they are from different companies. The council owned operator still has to follow the rules of deregulation just like any other operator outside London.
Trent Barton accept Robin Hood within the Robin Hood area. Not super great for going to IKEA though!

Hoping that better ticketing can be sorted now the deregulation rules are being revised somewhat.
It depends what you call "very good". Integrated ticketing should mean that you can make a single journey involving a change of bus or tram at the same price as a single journey undertaken on a single vehicle. That isn't the case in Nottingham. If you change from one bus to another you pay twice. If you change from a bus to a tram you pay twice. Even London doesn't have "very good" integrated ticketing, in my view. Yes, you can change from one bus to another, or even between bus and tram for £1.65. But if you change from bus to tube you pay twice.
Very good by UK standards!

I guess the blessing is right that most people will be doing a return journey, so the charge twice thing ends up balancing itself out.
 

johncrossley

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Nottingham is particularly affected by boundary issues because much of the urban area is outside the boundary.
 

Bletchleyite

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Nottingham is particularly affected by boundary issues because much of the urban area is outside the boundary.

We have a very strange approach to city boundaries in the UK, being seemingly unwilling to change them as cities grow. That Ormskirk is not in the Liverpool City Region for example is nuts, and were it in Germany it absolutely would be.
 

Dai Corner

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We have a very strange approach to city boundaries in the UK, being seemingly unwilling to change them as cities grow. That Ormskirk is not in the Liverpool City Region for example is nuts, and were it in Germany it absolutely would be.
Bristol is another example, where the urban area extends far into what is now South Gloucestershire but was previously Northavon and Kingswood and before that Gloucestershire. None of the Local Government reorganisations have taken the opportunity to tidy it all up.
 

Bletchleyite

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Bristol is another example, where the urban area extends far into what is now South Gloucestershire but was previously Northavon and Kingswood and before that Gloucestershire. None of the Local Government reorganisations have taken the opportunity to tidy it all up.

There's also a very strong argument that Watford should be in Greater London. There are loads of such examples.
 

NewClee153

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I live an approximately 20 minutes away from Smethwick Rolfe Street, and 25 minutes away from the (preferred and more popular) Smethwick Galton Bridge. To avoid an unnecessary 5 minute drive from my door to the Smethwick Galton Bridge, I cycle to the train station - which takes about 10-15 minutes (even quicker to Rolfe Street)

Even more fortunately, working from home, and having a partner that lives quite local and close to a train station means I can often go 5 days or more without even touching my car

This is priceless in terms of petrol, but having a car - which takes up most of my money - is almost unavoidable these days, or so it may seem
 

E27007

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I think you're assuming "low cost" is the priority. In car purchase it almost never is; it is a lifestyle choice based around both what sort of vehicle is needed/wanted and what image someone wishes to project (e.g. a high value consultant showing up to a customer site in a dented old ex-British Gas van is probably not what they want to portray). Just like most people don't go around in Tesco Value T-shirts and jeans (though some of course do!)



It is a fallacy, because if I drive a mile less this week I don't pay 50p less. The model does not work. It's just one used for calculating expense payments as a means of giving a contribution to the fixed costs proportional to the amount of business usage.
Not a fallacy, a figure of 50 p a mile might work for a modest car 6 to 10 years old assuming it is reliable and depreciates at £1000 / year and 5000 miles / year of driving, of the 50p, petrol will be 20 p per mile leaving 30 p for everything else ,depreciation, maintenance , insurance, MoT, Ved, wear and tear such as tyres and brakes.
A new car, eg Honda Jazz, a reasonable car to own, frugal, rteliable and not expensive compared to premium brand cars, looked at the Honda website, £21000 OTR, or a 3 year PCP contract, for 24000 miles over the three years, deposit £5000 + (37 x £199) payments == £12340, gives 51 p per mile, if you only do 18,000 miles over 3 years, then 68 p / mile.
51p and 68p / mile are just the basic ownership cost, NOT including fuel, servicing, insurance, or VED,
 

43066

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Not a fallacy, a figure of 50 p a mile might work for a modest car 6 to 10 years old assuming it is reliable and depreciates at £1000 / year and 5000 miles / year of driving, of the 50p, petrol will be 20 p per mile leaving 30 p for everything else ,depreciation, maintenance , insurance, MoT, Ved, wear and tear such as tyres and brakes.
A new car, eg Honda Jazz, a reasonable car to own, frugal, rteliable and not expensive compared to premium brand cars, looked at the Honda website, £21000 OTR, or a 3 year PCP contract, for 24000 miles over the three years, deposit £5000 + (37 x £199) payments == £12 340, gives 51 p per mile, if you only do 18,000 miles over 3 years, then 68 p / mile.
51p and 68p / mile does NOT include fuel, servicing, insurance, or VED,
Note with a PCP you do not own the car at the end of thge deal you hand it back or buy it for a residual value, around 50% of the price when new, for the £21000 Jazz around £11500.

People would almost always be better off taking out a personal loan for £16000 than doing a PCP. The payments would be a little higher but you’d own the vehicle outright at the end and would be able to borrow at a lower rate of interest. You also wouldn’t suffer interest charged on the deferred balloon amount.

Or better yet simply buy one that’s four or five years old.
 

Bletchleyite

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People would almost always be better off taking out a personal loan for £16000 than doing a PCP. The payments would be a little higher but you’d own the vehicle outright at the end and would be able to borrow at a lower rate of interest. You also wouldn’t suffer interest charged on the deferred balloon amount.

Or better yet simply buy one that’s four or five years old.

Sshh...let them keep buying new cars so there are cheaper used ones for us! If they stop we have to pay more.

Not a fallacy

I don't think you actually read my post, because your reply doesn't actually say anything at all about the reason why a per mile model is a fallacy, and a per month plus per mile one is closer to reality.

To say it very simply - it is a fallacy because if I reduce my car use down to zero miles I am still paying a very large chunk of money for buying it and periodic servicing and tax and insurance. That sum cannot sensibly be applied to a mileage model.

This week I have not left the house because I have COVID. My car is still costing me money sat doing nothing.
 

cactustwirly

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Sshh...let them keep buying new cars so there are cheaper used ones for us! If they stop we have to pay more.



I don't think you actually read my post, because your reply doesn't actually say anything at all about the reason why a per mile model is a fallacy, and a per month plus per mile one is closer to reality.

To say it very simply - it is a fallacy because if I reduce my car use down to zero miles I am still paying a very large chunk of money for buying it and periodic servicing and tax and insurance. That sum cannot sensibly be applied to a mileage model.

This week I have not left the house because I have COVID. My car is still costing me money sat doing nothing.

Exactly, my timing belt is due for a replacement soon. It's a labour intensive job so it isn't cheap to do.
As there is a time and mileage interval, it still costs the same regardless of how many miles you do. Unless you do mega miles
 

Snow1964

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People would almost always be better off taking out a personal loan for £16000 than doing a PCP. The payments would be a little higher but you’d own the vehicle outright at the end and would be able to borrow at a lower rate of interest. You also wouldn’t suffer interest charged on the deferred balloon amount.

Or better yet simply buy one that’s four or five years old.

You are better off doing both, letting your dealer give you a PCP price, which often comes with deposit contribution, servicing incentives etc. Could be saving of £1-3k

Then between day 1 and 14 of PCP starting (when you pick up car), you ring up the manufacturers finance company, settle in full (having got money at good rate bank loan), and for the PCP just pay a token bit of interest for few days, but not getting charged any exit penalties (first 2 weeks seem to be like a distance selling so can change your mind, penalty free). They let you keep all the incentives.

VW Group certainly do this, not advertised though as don’t want everyone doing it as the incentives are subsidised by the other customers who run the PCP to its term.
 

43066

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You are better off doing both, letting your dealer give you a PCP price, which often comes with deposit contribution, servicing incentives etc. Could be saving of £1-3k

Then between day 1 and 14 of PCP starting (when you pick up car), you ring up the manufacturers finance company, settle in full (having got money at good rate bank loan), and for the PCP just pay a token bit of interest for few days, but not getting charged any exit penalties (first 2 weeks seem to be like a distance selling so can change your mind, penalty free). They let you keep all the incentives.

VW Group certainly do this, not advertised though as don’t want everyone doing it as the incentives are subsidised by the other customers who run the PCP to its term.

Agreed. So long as your credit rating is good enough, as you’d be making two applications for significant credit in a short space of time. As you say there’s nothing they can do to stop you simply paying the whole thing off with no penalties during the cooling off period.

I can’t remember whether this is RailUK Forums or PistonHeads. ;)
 

Bald Rick

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Exactly, my timing belt is due for a replacement soon. It's a labour intensive job so it isn't cheap to do.
As there is a time and mileage interval, it still costs the same regardless of how many miles you do. Unless you do mega miles

A timing belt failure is a pretty rare event. Typical replacement intervals are 5 years / 60k miles. But you can always stretch that.
 

Royston Vasey

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Agreed. So long as your credit rating is good enough, as you’d be making two applications for significant credit in a short space of time. As you say there’s nothing they can do to stop you simply paying the whole thing off with no penalties during the cooling off period.

I can’t remember whether this is RailUK Forums or PistonHeads. ;)
Nobody would ever ask the question in the title on PistonHeads!
 
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