How does the lack of direct train services between large towns in Northern England compare with the South?

[RT4038]

Which is why it isn't the first choice to be cut- however cutting the more lightly-used services still has a negative impact.
Our hypothetical Featherstone resident won't be on the Leeds train because they'll just drive all the way into Leeds, so the Leeds train still carries fewer people, meaning less farebox revenue in total and more congestion on the M621.

I don't think anyone has suggested that cutting the more lightly-used services will not have any negative impact. (It is not the Beeching era and before where so many trains had so few passengers). However, if you've got to cut something clearly it is more sensible to cut those services with the least negative impact. This is more likely to be the peripheral services that don't serve the major conurbations.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

The key thing here though is it has to a relatively frequent and a quick service otherwise it won't be successful, 1 train each way a day isn't worth doing for example

 

[RT4038]

The key thing here though is it has to a relatively frequent and a quick service otherwise it won't be successful, 1 train each way a day isn't worth doing for example

I am unsure what this statement is referring to?

 

[Requeststop]

Us lot definitely see the South West as separate to the "South". Going to London is an event (and incidentally, Birmingham has zero connection with the area). Bristol is the major centre, and in turn it's notable how many commercial businesses in both Bristol and Cardiff have offices and work in the opposite city. Gloucester-Swindon-Salisbury-Bournemouth is regarded as the boundary.

Interesting, as one from the far South, (99.999%) of Great Britain is north of where I come from, I see the North/South divide as being somewhat different. Yes we are most definitely the South West and resent being bundled up with the South East in the North/South argument. As to Bristol being the major centre, well Bristol is 200 miles away from my home village, and we have nothing in common with it. To me the South West is basically a line west of Ilfracombe to Dorchester. The rest is either the West or the South.

Talking about regional differences in train travel between majorish towns. I just did a search on RTT for a journey from St Ives to Newquay. Not an unreasonable journey during this period during the summer holidays. I took my departure at random at 13:30 via St Erth and Par (of course) the earliest I could get to Newquay would be 17:05. Not particularly good for a direct road journey of 31 miles.
Barnstaple - Taunton at 50 miles takes 2 hrs 30 mins on average.

We along the withered arm are used to it, and we don't complain unlike our friends from up Norf for whom complaining is in the blood. Such a shame that Folks from the South East don't seem to have second homes, forcing out locals in places I suppose like Bacup, Castleford, and North Shields. They come down to the far South West where we're likely not to complain too loudly and the weathers better and they don't use the trains.

 

[yorksrob]

Interesting, as one from the far South, (99.999%) of Great Britain is north of where I come from, I see the North/South divide as being somewhat different. Yes we are most definitely the South West and resent being bundled up with the South East in the North/South argument. As to Bristol being the major centre, well Bristol is 200 miles away from my home village, and we have nothing in common with it. To me the South West is basically a line west of Ilfracombe to Dorchester. The rest is either the West or the South.

Talking about regional differences in train travel between majorish towns. I just did a search on RTT for a journey from St Ives to Newquay. Not an unreasonable journey during this period during the summer holidays. I took my departure at random at 13:30 via St Erth and Par (of course) the earliest I could get to Newquay would be 17:05. Not particularly good for a direct road journey of 31 miles.
Barnstaple - Taunton at 50 miles takes 2 hrs 30 mins on average.

We along the withered arm are used to it, and we don't complain unlike our friends from up Norf for whom complaining is in the blood. Such a shame that Folks from the South East don't seem to have second homes, forcing out locals in places I suppose like Bacup, Castleford, and North Shields. They come down to the far South West where we're likely not to complain too loudly and the weathers better and they don't use the trains.

Don't worry - I might be Up Norf, but I'm still happy to complain about the lack of railways in withered arm territory

The sooner the missing link between Okehampton and Bere Alston is reinstated the better !

 

[AM9]

Interesting, as one from the far South, (99.999%) of Great Britain is north of where I come from, I see the North/South divide as being somewhat different. Yes we are most definitely the South West and resent being bundled up with the South East in the North/South argument. As to Bristol being the major centre, well Bristol is 200 miles away from my home village, and we have nothing in common with it. To me the South West is basically a line west of Ilfracombe to Dorchester. The rest is either the West or the South.

Talking about regional differences in train travel between majorish towns. I just did a search on RTT for a journey from St Ives to Newquay. Not an unreasonable journey during this period during the summer holidays. I took my departure at random at 13:30 via St Erth and Par (of course) the earliest I could get to Newquay would be 17:05. Not particularly good for a direct road journey of 31 miles.
Barnstaple - Taunton at 50 miles takes 2 hrs 30 mins on average.

We along the withered arm are used to it, and we don't complain unlike our friends from up Norf for whom complaining is in the blood. Such a shame that Folks from the South East don't seem to have second homes, forcing out locals in places I suppose like Bacup, Castleford, and North Shields. They come down to the far South West where we're likely not to complain too loudly and the weathers better and they don't use the trains.

In June we had two pleasant weeks staying in St Ives and fully appreciate what you are saying about rail travel in Cornwall. We travelled down and back by train (just under 324 miles each way) and there was no shortage of other (non-locals) on the trains. Whilst in Cornwall we travelled around, both on bus and train, and were surprised at the low fares down there.
I do understand your problem with getting around in Cornwall by train. I planned to visit Looe but the journey was just too difficult: the core mainline service is OK, - one through train to Paddington or Cardiff and a slow all stops to Plymouth. However for getting onto or off the branches (except from the St Ives and Falmouth lines) is all wrong. The timetable is constructed so that the mainline acts as a feeder for the branches going westwards and the branches feed the through trains going eastwards. That means that taking a westward train to Liskeard get there just after the branch line train departs. similarly, coming back up the branch, the train gets there to pick up passengers that have been dropped of the mainline, but the mainline train is long gone and iot's nearly an hour to the next one.
The buses were OK except that on some of the hourly seervices, there would be missing ones. For us it was the T2 from Redruth back to St Ives, there was an extra hour to waste.
However, lovely county and the people were fine, - can't say the same for all the visitors!

 

[RT4038]

Interesting, as one from the far South, (99.999%) of Great Britain is north of where I come from, I see the North/South divide as being somewhat different. Yes we are most definitely the South West and resent being bundled up with the South East in the North/South argument. As to Bristol being the major centre, well Bristol is 200 miles away from my home village, and we have nothing in common with it. To me the South West is basically a line west of Ilfracombe to Dorchester. The rest is either the West or the South.

Talking about regional differences in train travel between majorish towns. I just did a search on RTT for a journey from St Ives to Newquay. Not an unreasonable journey during this period during the summer holidays. I took my departure at random at 13:30 via St Erth and Par (of course) the earliest I could get to Newquay would be 17:05. Not particularly good for a direct road journey of 31 miles.
Barnstaple - Taunton at 50 miles takes 2 hrs 30 mins on average.

To be fair, you wouldn't leave at 13h30 though, the connections being leave St Ives at 12h03 to arrive 14h17 or 14h33 to arrive Newquay at 17h05.

I took a look at the 1961 timetable, (with the more direct line via Perranporth still open) where the equivalent departed at 12h50 changing at St Erth and Chacewater arriving at 15h21, 13h40 changing at St Erth and Truro getting in at 16h06 or 15h25 (St Erth and Chacewater) getting in at 17h40. Slightly more frequent, but not any faster.

 

[yorksrob]

In June we had two pleasant weeks staying in St Ives and fully appreciate what you are saying about rail travel in Cornwall. We travelled down and back by train (just under 324 miles each way) and there was no shortage of other (non-locals) on the trains. Whilst in Cornwall we travelled around, both on bus and train, and were surprised at the low fares down there.
I do understand your problem with getting around in Cornwall by train. I planned to visit Looe but the journey was just too difficult: the core mainline service is OK, - one through train to Paddington or Cardiff and a slow all stops to Plymouth. However for getting onto or off the branches (except from the St Ives and Falmouth lines) is all wrong. The timetable is constructed so that the mainline acts as a feeder for the branches going westwards and the branches feed the through trains going eastwards. That means that taking a westward train to Liskeard get there just after the branch line train departs. similarly, coming back up the branch, the train gets there to pick up passengers that have been dropped of the mainline, but the mainline train is long gone and iot's nearly an hour to the next one.
The buses were OK except that on some of the hourly seervices, there would be missing ones. For us it was the T2 from Redruth back to St Ives, there was an extra hour to waste.
However, lovely county and the people were fine, - can't say the same for all the visitors!

We regularly visit the branches from Penzance. St Ives always seems to be easy, given connections. Falmouth usually involves 20 - 30 min wait at Truro and Looe we have to check for the connection.

 

[Deerfold]

During the Covid period, though I can't recall the exact time it was pulled. During 2021 I think, as it wasn't stopped at the start of the lockdowns. Strictly speaking it hasn't been culled entirely, a few journeys a day run as buses during the peaks.

There's one in the morning peak and two in the evening peak from Huddersfield to Castleford via Wakefield.

Peak is pushing it a bit in the other direction. There's just one a day from Castleford just before 1900 (15 minutes before the bus from Huddersfield arrives...).

 

[AM9]

We regularly visit the branches from Penzance. St Ives always seems to be easy, given connections. Falmouth usually involves 20 - 30 min wait at Truro and Looe we have to check for the connection.

But when I wanted to go down the Looe branch, I could get to Liskeard at 11:42, but the shutlle left at 11:36 so as there's not a lot to dao at Liskeard, I went somewhere else.

 

[yorksrob]

But when I wanted to go down the Looe branch, I could get to Liskeard at 11:42, but the shutlle left at 11:36 so as there's not a lot to dao at Liskeard, I went somewhere else.

Yeah, we usually end up waiting 40 mins to an hour on the way. There was a pub at Liskeard but it went a few years ago.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

We along the withered arm are used to it, and we don't complain unlike our friends from up Norf for whom complaining is in the blood.

If you don't complain, don't be surprised if you don't get the attention. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, as they say...

Resorting to tired stereotypes won't help your case either to be honest. If the issue in the south west is second homers, they should be the target of your ire.

 

[Bald Rick]

Such a shame that Folks from the South East don't seem to have second homes, forcing out locals in places I suppose like Bacup, Castleford, and North Shields.

to be fair, I have a friend here in St Albans who has a second home in North Shields!

(pedants note, technically St Albans isn’t in the South East).

 

[Jimini]

to be fair, I have a friend here in St Albans who has a second home in North Shields!

(pedants note, technically St Albans isn’t in the South East).

We've got a flat in South Woodford (London (just)) and a house in Stivichall in Coventry. Nothing wrong with having a second property if it works. Work dictates that we probably spend an equal amount of time in both.

 

[Wolfie]

Zonal products generally require validity in every zone you cross, not just the ones at the ends. I would be surprised if this was valid.

Absolutely.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

There's no direct service between Croydon and Bromley either. Some journeys require interchange, that's the nature of the beast.

The difference being Huddersfield to Wakefield, Huddersfield to Halifax, Huddersfield to Castleford, Castleford to Brighouse (etc) are all entirely doable very easily by direct trains if the willpower to run the services exists.

Croydon to Bromley isn’t doable. Comparable might be something like Swanley to London Bridge, or Orpington to Sidcup, or even Brixton to Streatham or Tulse Hill to Balham. All doable, just no services.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Plymouth isn't well-served to towns along the South coast. Exeter is better in that it has direct trains to places such as Basingstoke and Salisbury.

 

[dk1]

Plymouth isn't well-served to towns along the South coast. Exeter is better in that it has direct trains to places such as Basingstoke and Salisbury.

Wasn’t that long ago that SWT (now SWR) served Paignton/Plymouth several times daily & Penzance on the weekend. The latter however was quite unreliable.

 

[Starmill]

I wouldn’t term it huge, or even moderate, and that is certainly not borne out by the data (which I accept is not public).

The same data suggests that rail had between single figure percentages and fractions of a percentage point market share for journeys from most of the East Midlands and South Yorkshire to Bedford, Luton and Luton Airport and that the changes have made it worse.

Now obviously the only real ones that used to be stronger and are now weaker because of the changes are from Nottingham, Beeston, Loughborough or Leicester to Bedford, Luton or Luton Airport. And the rail market is small enough in the first place that overall there's clearly net growth already in most of the markets or there will be in a few years (depending on the industrial relations position).

Overall I don't disagree that this means the changes were a good thing but let's also not try to kid ourselves that the rail service is actually competitive outside of the narrow market for which it was optimised, carrying large numbers of office commuters every weekday between Bedford or Luton and central London. It can still do that very well. Unfortunately that's not what the market actually wants any more.

Isn't it common to fly for leisure every few months?

Yes if you're in a high income decile. Balanced out by nearly all of the people in the bottom income deciles flying less than once per year or never.

Wasn’t that long ago that SWT (now SWR) served Paignton/Plymouth several times daily & Penzance on the weekend. The latter however was quite unreliable.

Given that Salisbury and Basingstoke aren't actually large draws, but Southampton and Portsmouth are, more trains between Plymouth and Westbury would probably be more useful than through trains to Salisbury. There are few good connections at Westbury.

 

[Irascible]

If you don't complain, don't be surprised if you don't get the attention. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, as they say...

Resorting to tired stereotypes won't help your case either to be honest. If the issue in the south west is second homers, they should be the target of your ire.

In lockdown there were some instances of rather more direct targeting.

I've included Minehead as a proper south-west place because people in mid Devon did/do tend to go there to work - now there's a rail trip that's always been roundabout. Generally the Quantock-Blackdown line ( coincidentally the border of the old celtic kingdom of Devon ) is where I draw it, because people either side tend to look different directions.

Plymouth isn't well-served to towns along the South coast. Exeter is better in that it has direct trains to places such as Basingstoke and Salisbury.

Still a big pain from Exeter anyway - Bournemouth is pointless, and I wonder how much faster going to Salisbury for Portsmouth/Southampton is than Westbury. Where would you go from Basingstoke arriving from the west? ( genuine question, I've no idea ). Neither of them have direct trains to anywhere near the south coast but each other & Penzance, which is what the OP was asking for - Basingstoke & Salisbury definitely aren't the south coast!

 

[dk1]

Given that Salisbury and Basingstoke aren't actually large draws, but Southampton and Portsmouth are, more trains between Plymouth and Westbury would probably be more useful than through trains to Salisbury. There are few good connections at Westbury.

Agreed but it made a pleasant alternative to Paddington & some decent connections could be had along the route & at Clapham Jcn. The loco-hauled Brighton to the West Country of yesteryear where always good to travel on.

 

[Skipness]

Where the North seems to have been badly served is by idiot closures in lesser populated areas which have damaged the inter-connectability and resilience of the network (e.g. Scarborough-Whitby, Harrogate-Northallerton, Hull-York, Colne-Skipton, Penrith-Keswick-Workington)

I can confirm that the second most asked question at Whitby station is “when is the next train to Scarborough?”

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I can confirm that the second most asked question at Whitby station is “when is the next train to Scarborough?”

Would have been March 1965 presumably?

 

[Kent99]

Essex is pretty terrible in terms of connections East - West.
Chelmsford/Braintree/Colchester can’t travel to Cambridge/Peterborough without a lengthy journey time via the later or via London…
Nothing between Chelmsford/Colchester - Basildon Southend without changes

Not to be all rose-tinted-glasses but Braintree - Bishops Stortford closure and Sudbury - Gt Shelford eliminated any useable East-West connections. Also means East Anglia to the midlands is difficult, unless you can get to stansted or cambridge and sit on a turbostar for hours on end …

 

[Roger100]

I don't follow this. There are 16 direct trains from Durham to Liverpool, all calling at Manchester, tomorrow between 04.53 and 20.18. You said you can get to Durhsm by bus or drive. This sounds like a very good service to me.

There are plenty of trains from Durham, although you've got to get there first. The earliest bus from Hartlepool to Durham arrives about 08:20 which is fine if that's as far as you want to go. If you sprint up the hill to the station you can get to Manchester at about 11:20. You can get to London from Hartlepool over an hour earlier. Or Edinburgh even earlier, if you are lucky.

 

[antharro]

I live down on the south coast, near Bournemouth/Poole. For London, Manchester and anywhere on the SWML we're very well connected. And we're one change from Portsmouth, Brighton and Salisbury. But if I want to go west it's not as easy; the journey times are longer, the route is often going in the wrong direction before it joins up with a route going in the correct direction (Bournemouth -> Basingstoke/Reading -> Exeter for example). Taking Exeter as an example, once changes and travel time to get to the station are thrown in, it can take nearly 4 hours to get there. It's a 2 hour drive if the traffic's favourable.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I live down on the south coast, near Bournemouth/Poole. For London, Manchester and anywhere on the SWML we're very well connected. And we're one change from Portsmouth, Brighton and Salisbury. But if I want to go west it's not as easy; the journey times are longer, the route is often going in the wrong direction before it joins up with a route going in the correct direction (Bournemouth -> Basingstoke/Reading -> Exeter for example). Taking Exeter as an example, once changes and travel time to get to the station are thrown in, it can take nearly 4 hours to get there. It's a 2 hour drive if the traffic's favourable.

Could you not change at Southampton then Salisbury for Exeter rather than going all the way to Basingstoke, or do the timings not match up for that route?

Still be difficult to match driving even if the connections are good, admittedly.

 

[Irascible]

Could you not change at Southampton then Salisbury for Exeter rather than going all the way to Basingstoke, or do the timings not match up for that route?

Still be difficult to match driving even if the connections are good, admittedly.

A very long way from the direct connections the thread is about, too...

 

[William3000]

What is undoubtedly true is that the rail network was reduced markedly less in the south-east than in other regions in the Beeching contractions and later.
Connectivity was severely reduced in the north, the west, rural East Anglia, Wales and Scotland, but not in the home counties.
One of the few SE closures was the Maidenhead-High Wycombe line north of Bourne End - I suspect even that is much regretted now.

One of the major problems in the area north of London is the lack of east/west connectivity. East West rail will solve that as long as interchange facilities are good.

Isn't the M25 for trains there already though in the form of the lines used by London Overground trains?

Not much use for people in Cambridge or St Neots wanting to get to Bedford, MK, or Northampton

That's not true! There were many closures north of London that reduced connectivity, for example:

Princes Risborough-Thame-Oxford
Bletchley-Oxford
Welwyn-Luton-Leighton Buzzard
Bedford-Northampton
Bedford-Hitchin
Bedford-Sandy-Cambridge
Cambridge-St Ives-Huntingdon-Kettering
Peterborough-Wellingborough-Northampton
Peterborough-Market Harborough-Rugby
Bishops Stortford-Braintree
Cambridge-Haverhill-Sudbury

In particular, the ECML/MML are across the road from each other in London, but, going north, the first rail route linking the two is Peterborough-Leicester. Between London and Peterborough/Leicester six routes going east/west between the ECML and MML were closed.

Most of the routes you have cited are in East Anglia or the East Midlands though. I agree the South East got away more unscathed.

I live in Kent, which is one of the worst connected county on the entire Network, in regards to long-distance services. Gatwick Airport is close to where I live yet to get there I would need to take at least three trains, none of which seem timed to connect with each other. Getting to Paris or Marseille on the train from where I live involves less changes than getting to Edinburgh or Exeter, which is absolutely laughable. Really an Ashford to the north Crosscountry service would be really useful, or a 'Thameslink 2' going via the West London Line and going into Kent. At the moment, getting out of Kent is difficult as is getting around it as well. Unfortunately it's always been like that, as the railways here weren't designed very well.

Kent is one of the best - if not the best county in the UK in terms of rail connectivity. It retained more of its lines than any other county in the UK.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

There are plenty of trains from Durham, although you've got to get there first. The earliest bus from Hartlepool to Durham arrives about 08:20 which is fine if that's as far as you want to go. If you sprint up the hill to the station you can get to Manchester at about 11:20. You can get to London from Hartlepool over an hour earlier. Or Edinburgh even earlier, if you are lucky.

What trains are there in the morning from Hartlepool to York?