How, in practice, does a wheelchair user travel on a DOO service (no second member of staff) from an unstaffed station?

[py_megapixel]

Something I've been wondering for a while. I know it's been a contentious topic of debate, but a lot of the coverage seems to be about the potential impacts, with very few real stories. The DOO TOCs websites are rather vague on this issue.

With TOCs like Southern having a large proportion of their route without a passenger-facing member of staff, how do they accommodate wheelchairs?
Are they not still required to make reasonable adjustments to allow them to travel in the same manner as an able-bodied passenger?
Ultimately - if push comes to shove - who puts the ramp down if a wheelchair user needs to access a DOO train from an unmanned station?
Can anyone on here state whether or not this actually works in practice?r

 

[320320]

On board ticket examiner does it, if there’s one on the service, if not they wait on another train if possible, otherwise control may ger them a taxi.

 

[Bald Rick]

Something I've been wondering for a while. I know it's been a contentious topic of debate, but a lot of the coverage seems to be about the potential impacts, with very few real stories. The DOO TOCs websites are rather vague on this issue.

With TOCs like Southern having a large proportion of their route without a passenger-facing member of staff, how do they accommodate wheelchairs?
Are they not still required to make reasonable adjustments to allow them to travel in the same manner as an able-bodied passenger?
Ultimately - if push comes to shove - who puts the ramp down if a wheelchair user needs to access a DOO train from an unmanned station?
Can anyone on here state whether or not this actually works in practice?r

It certainly works for the few wheelchair users I see using the DOO services (with no other on board staff) I use. One of four things happen:

1) station staff deploys the ramp
2) specially dispatched assistance deploys the ramp (assuming they had been booked)
3) driver deploys ramp
4) wheelchair user assisted on to train by co-travellers

There is a fifth way, which I have seen more times than I care to remember, is that the wheelchair user gets out of the wheelchair, walks on / off the train carrying wheelchair, and then sits back down in it.

 

[Need2]

Something I've been wondering for a while. I know it's been a contentious topic of debate, but a lot of the coverage seems to be about the potential impacts, with very few real stories. The DOO TOCs websites are rather vague on this issue.

With TOCs like Southern having a large proportion of their route without a passenger-facing member of staff, how do they accommodate wheelchairs?
Are they not still required to make reasonable adjustments to allow them to travel in the same manner as an able-bodied passenger?
Ultimately - if push comes to shove - who puts the ramp down if a wheelchair user needs to access a DOO train from an unmanned station?
Can anyone on here state whether or not this actually works in practice?r

As far as I'm aware the wheelchair user would have to phone the toc/stations in advance and pre-book assistance. You cannot just turn up at an unmanned station and expect help!

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Certainly from the stations I use, platform staff utilise the ramp that is stored somewhere on the platform. I presume they have been advised through an advance booking by the passenger concerned. Platform staff usually know where in the train the wheelchair accommodation is (i.e. near the disabled toilet...)

There are no staff at an unmanned station and it is not the responsibility of the driver - therefore, as I understand it, a wheelchair passenger cannot board/alight at an unmanned station

 

[Need2]

There is a fifth way, which I have seen more times than I care to remember, is that the wheelchair user gets out of the wheelchair, walks on / off the train carrying wheelchair, and then sits back down in it.

 

[30907]

There is a fifth way, which I have seen more times than I care to remember, is that the wheelchair user gets out of the wheelchair, walks on / off the train carrying wheelchair, and then sits back down in it.

Many wheelchair users can of course (sometimes/regularly) walk short distances and are (like a relative of mine) used to being accused of faking disability.
Not casting aspersions on your understanding, but I wouldn't like a forum reader to misinterpret your post.

 

[flitwickbeds]

On Thameslink, it is a requirement to book in advance. A (free) taxi will take you to a suitable station where staff deploy a mobile ramp up to a specific carriage on the train. They then phone ahead to the destination station to inform them the passenger is on board and they will then be ready to deploy the ramp to get them off. Perhaps with another taxi depending on final destination.

 

[matt_world2004]

As far as I'm aware the wheelchair user would have to phone the toc/stations in advance and pre-book assistance. You cannot just turn up at an unmanned station and expect help!

TfL stations accept unooked wheelchair assistance

 

[Bald Rick]

Many wheelchair users can of course (sometimes/regularly) walk short distances and are (like a relative of mine) used to being accused of faking disability.
Not casting aspersions on your understanding, but I wouldn't like a forum reader to misinterpret your post.

Yes, sorry, I should have qualified the post with that distinction.

 

[py_megapixel]

There are no staff at an unmanned station and it is not the responsibility of the driver - therefore, as I understand it, a wheelchair passenger cannot board/alight at an unmanned station

On Thameslink, it is a requirement to book in advance. A (free) taxi will take you to a suitable station where staff deploy a mobile ramp up to a specific carriage on the train. They then phone ahead to the destination station to inform them the passenger is on board and they will then be ready to deploy the ramp to get them off. Perhaps with another taxi depending on final destination.

Are either of these policies legal, technically?

I was under the impression that turn-up-and-go access to the same level as able-bodied passengers was required (edit: where physically possible, obviously stations without lifts just can't provide this)

You cannot just turn up at an unmanned station and expect help!

Except that's exactly what wheelchair users were doing for the past few decades. The help came from the conductor on the train.

Why is the railway industry just complacent with a backward step in passenger accessibility?

 

[flitwickbeds]

Are either of these policies legal, technically?

I was under the impression that turn-up-and-go access to the same level as able-bodied passengers was required.

I don't know. If you turn up at Flitwick Station you're not getting onto the platforms anyway due to the lack of lifts. So in any case you're going to need to somehow get to Luton or Bedford where there are staff on the platform who can deploy a ramp.

 

[Skimble19]

On Thameslink, it is a requirement to book in advance. A (free) taxi will take you to a suitable station where staff deploy a mobile ramp up to a specific carriage on the train. They then phone ahead to the destination station to inform them the passenger is on board and they will then be ready to deploy the ramp to get them off. Perhaps with another taxi depending on final destination.

It isn’t a requirement to book in advance, but it is strongly recommended. A wheelchair user could arrive and use the station help point to contact control or call the Assisted Travel team, who would arrange for a taxi to the nearest staffed station, although this obviously takes a lot longer than booking and having a taxi pre-booked to collect the passenger at a specified time.

 

[py_megapixel]

I don't know. If you turn up at Flitwick Station you're not getting onto the platforms anyway due to the lack of lifts. So in any case you're going to need to somehow get to Luton or Bedford where there are staff on the platform who can deploy a ramp.

In which case I believe a taxi to Luton would be reasonable... but only, in my opinion, if the wheelchair user can turn up and request one there and then rather than phoning in advance.

 

[robbeech]

You cannot just turn up at an unmanned station and expect help!

You cannot just turn up at an unmanned station and GET help. but you should be able to expect it.

Why is the railway industry just complacent with a backward step in passenger accessibility?

Who can/will stop them?
They will be exempt for as long as they need to be exempt for.

That all said, it's likely not something that crops up as often as we think, as on board staff or the driver will likely just get on with it.

 

[Gloster]

On the Copenhagen S-Tog system the wheelchair user waits where the first door will be, the driver gets out and operates the fitted ramp, the wheelchair user goes up the ramp, the driver closes things up and returns to the cab. So I am told, the main problem is if the driver forgets where the passenger is getting off.

 

[Starmill]

Relevant companies should have a Disabled Persons Protection Policy for customers to refer to.

As far as I'm aware the wheelchair user would have to phone the toc/stations in advance and pre-book assistance. You cannot just turn up at an unmanned station and expect help!

Well, the clear position is that you can expect help, and there may or may not not be enough effort to comply with the law by providing that help by one means or another.

If the company cannot provide any staff whatsoever, because there are none onboard but the driver where the driver cannot help, and none at the station, they would need to arrange alternative transport. They cannot turn someone needing assistance away for no reason other than that they did not book, unless advance booking is a requirement for any traveller. Companies can and usually do ask politely for travellers to book assistance in advance.

 

[323235]

This is the biggest flaw with DOO trains- disabled passengers should be able to get on a train whenever and wherever they want , without having to arrange assistance. It is just another extra hurdle to deal with and given they have modified all trains to be PRM-TSI compliant and accessible for all, it's not in any way unreasonable.

 

[DorkingMain]

This is the biggest flaw with DOO trains- disabled passengers should be able to get on a train whenever and wherever they want , without having to arrange assistance. It is just another extra hurdle to deal with and given they have modified all trains to be PRM-TSI compliant and accessible for all, it's not in any way unreasonable.

Indeed. Never mind all the on-board situations which are 100x easier to resolve with a guard vs having the driver shut the cab down and getting out.

When I was with SWR, it was always surprising how many passengers would turn up requiring unbooked assistance. Not just wheelchairs either - elderly passengers, visually-impaired passengers, people with mental health difficulties...

 

[Metal_gee_man]

Follow Disability campaigner Doug Pauley on YouTube to see his issues with PRM and lack of assistance

I'm of the opinion that if assistance has been booked and no-one assists then the passenger should block a doorway and stop a train from departing until someone qualified to use a ramp actually does their job. No 3rd party passenger help or travel beyond destination should be accepted.
Disabled passengers should be demanding of equal travel opportunities and shouldn't be quiet about it.

 

[DorkingMain]

Follow Disability campaigner Doug Pauley on YouTube to see his issues with PRM and lack of assistance

I'm of the opinion that if assistance has been booked and no-one assists then the passenger should block a doorway and stop a train from departing until someone qualified to use a ramp actually does their job. No 3rd party passenger help or travel beyond destination should be accepted.
Disabled passengers should be demanding of equal travel opportunities and shouldn't be quiet about it.

Agree. Block the doors, pull a passcom, whatever needs to be done. TOCs shouldn't be shirking their responsibilities, ever.

Let them pay with sacred delay minutes for doing so.

 

[CyrusWuff]

There has to be a bit of give and take when it comes to passenger assistance on DOO trains. For example, I'm aware of a case where a TOC had to send a member of staff on a two hour round trip to accompany a passenger requiring assistance because they were unable to contact anyone at the destination station. Had the customer boarded a train just five minutes later, no assistance would have been required at the destination as the train would have arrived at a different platform there.

 

[LowLevel]

There has to be a bit of give and take when it comes to passenger assistance on DOO trains. For example, I'm aware of a case where a TOC had to send a member of staff on a two hour round trip to accompany a passenger requiring assistance because they were unable to contact anyone at the destination station. Had the customer boarded a train just five minutes later, no assistance would have been required at the destination as the train would have arrived at a different platform there.

No, there does not. The industry choosing to operate a two tier (well, more than that but two tier will do for simplicity) whereby on one large proportion of trains no matter what happens someone will be there to assist. On another, by choice, someone won't be. That is up to the industry to deal with. It no doubt wasn't even considered when DOO was implemented.

 

[BayPaul]

I do find it difficult to understand why better / more systems that don't require a staff member can't be installed / provided / required, for example:

• Low floor trains like 745/755 that have level boarding
• Trains with one low-floor level boarding door
• Humps on platforms, with a moving ramp if required to allow level boarding
• Built-in ramps at one train door, similar to on a bus, that can be deployed by the driver on request.

Equality really shouldn't require pre-booking assistance, waiting for taxis or even needing to call a member of staff. In an ideal world a passenger in a wheelchair should have as similar an experience to anyone else as possible - i.e. turn up, get on train. Clearly this isn't possible everywhere, but one of the above doesn't sound at all impossible where a station has decent access from platform to street.

 

[Revilo]

Agree. Block the doors, pull a passcom, whatever needs to be done. TOCs shouldn't be shirking their responsibilities, ever.

Let them pay with sacred delay minutes for doing so.

What about all the other passengers who will then be delayed, some of whom may also be disabled? Or don’t they matter.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

What about all the other passengers who will then be delayed, some of whom may also be disabled? Or don’t they matter.

Oh they matter, but who's fault is the delay, don't dare say its the disabled person's fault, if the railways were properly staffed and trains operated by a competent person delays wouldn't be necessary

 

[Bald Rick]

This may be controversial... but I really struggle to grasp the mindset of anyone who, knowing they will need help to complete a certain activity because they have a different level of ability than is typical, deliberately sets out on that activity without asking for that help.

I write this as the father of someone with a disability.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

This may be controversial... but I really struggle to grasp the mindset of anyone who, knowing they will need help to complete a certain activity because they have a different level of ability than is typical, deliberately sets out on that activity without asking for that help.

I write this as the father of someone with a disability.

I believe the law does suggest that if you need help you should ask for help to gain access but that shouldn't be legally need to be pre-booked! If a disabled person gets on a train a conductor should be available to get them off the other end and if its DOO the station that boarded them should make sure there is someone the other end as part of their legal obligations, the problem is many accessable stations aren't manned, or maybe a change of on board staff halfway through the journey resulting in a lack of communication so the wheelchair user gets forgotten. This is what many users experience and its not fair or legal so that's why wheelchair users must make a noise and make a stand and be disruptive to be heard

 

[flitwickbeds]

This is the biggest flaw with DOO trains- disabled passengers should be able to get on a train whenever and wherever they want , without having to arrange assistance. It is just another extra hurdle to deal with and given they have modified all trains to be PRM-TSI compliant and accessible for all, it's not in any way unreasonable.

So, lifts/level access at every single one of the 2,500+ stations to/from every platform then? And a backup lift in case the first one is broken down? That's, back of a fag packet calculation, 100,000 new lifts. Including at Teesside Airport, Denton, Buckenham...

 

[Bikeman78]

Something I've been wondering for a while. I know it's been a contentious topic of debate, but a lot of the coverage seems to be about the potential impacts, with very few real stories. The DOO TOCs websites are rather vague on this issue.

With TOCs like Southern having a large proportion of their route without a passenger-facing member of staff, how do they accommodate wheelchairs?
Are they not still required to make reasonable adjustments to allow them to travel in the same manner as an able-bodied passenger?
Ultimately - if push comes to shove - who puts the ramp down if a wheelchair user needs to access a DOO train from an unmanned station?
Can anyone on here state whether or not this actually works in practice?r

I've travelled extensively on DOO trains and I've hardly seen any wheelchair users on them. Occasionally they travel from one staffed station to another. I expect most people know which stations it is not practical to use.