How is HS1 domestic doing

[jopsuk]

The "extra" cost really only applies beyond Ebbsfleet- on the 3rd rail network the trains that run onto HS1 can be used by all passengers.

 

[A60K]

And even so, it can be a pretty minimal extra cost to use HS services - taking a CDR from somewhere in North London to Canterbury, I think the difference between HS and non-HS fares can be as little as £2.

 

[Failed Unit]

And even so, it can be a pretty minimal extra cost to use HS services - taking a CDR from somewhere in North London to Canterbury, I think the difference between HS and non-HS fares can be as little as £2.

I thought it was free from most north of London stations due to it now been the Shortest route. I have used any permitted tickets on it and not been questioned many times now. (with no cheaper fare for Not HS1 offered)

 

[jon0844]

If I wanted to go from Hatfield to Gillingham, would an any permitted ticket allow me to use HS1?

 

[Failed Unit]

If I wanted to go from Hatfield to Gillingham, would an any permitted ticket allow me to use HS1?

Yes,

Fares as follows.

Not HS1 (you need to ask for via Bromley)
£23 Off Peak Day return
£28 Off Peak Return
£29 Peak Day return

Fastest Journey time is 1h53 changing at Highbury and Victoria

Any Permitted
£24.70 Off Peak Day return
£28.50 Off Peek return
£33 Peak Day Return

Fastest Journey time is 1h45 changing at Kings Cross only.

That made me think, on the "slower" route you are on the stopper to Moorgate, so if live at somewhere like Hadley Wood the time savings are very small indeed!

 

[A60K]

I thought it was free from most north of London stations due to it now been the Shortest route. I have used any permitted tickets on it and not been questioned many times now. (with no cheaper fare for Not HS1 offered)

I'm talking about North London stations (those that are in the North of London) whereas I think you're talking about North of London stations (those that are to the North of London), if you get my drift!

For the most part, stations within the NSE area (in and outside London) seem to have two fares - 'Any Permitted' and 'Not HS1'. Outside of the NSE generally it's just Any Permitted. It's not a hard and fast rule though, and there are plenty of quirks discoverable on Avantix.

You wouldn't ever be questioned using an Any Permitted ticket on HS1, as it's in the Routing Guide, or as you say it's the shortest route for some journeys.


If you wanted though, you might be able to buy a cheaper Not HS1 ticket, depending on where you travel from.

Curiously, NXEA Advance fares from Suffolk and Norfolk have two routings - '+AP London Ipswich' (cheaper) and '+AP NXEA Plus HS1' (more expensive). I'm struggling to think how tickets with the first routing can be excluded from validity on HS1, given there wouldn't be any reservations on the London to Canterbury leg? Am I being dense?

 

[2030720310]

Hi everyone, I have just been told on another thread that 395s on HS1 don't run at 140mph!!

Is this true?

 

[ukrob]

Hi everyone, I have just been told on another thread that 395s on HS1 don't run at 140mph!!

Is this true?

You were told no such thing. You were told that they are timetabled at 125mph (it is actually 126mph) unless they are running late in which case they will run at upto 140mph. Try it with a satnav/gps device.

 

[royaloak]

Which is what I said on the other thread :roll:

 

[DesireToFire]

I think the 395s are great, find them brilliant for getting to and from nights out in London (wish I could get them to work).

But it has to be said the difference in ride quality between 125 and 140 is very notable, they feel much more comfortable at 125, they (arguably)feel less stable than the Eurostar at 186 at 140, the Eurostar are way ahead in terms of ride quality and sound proofing. But they do have somewhat different purposes and the 395s certainly fit there use very well.

 

[jon0844]

But they do have somewhat different purposes and the 395s certainly fit there use very well.

As a first class, VIP, service (ironic given there's no FC!) that gets more money from commuters.

My work colleague is now paying for HS1 at least once, often twice, a week as he's become used to an extra bit of sleep in the morning and getting HS1! I think SET has been very clever here, as they're getting people to voluntarily pay a premium.

Imagine if they'd simply spread the premium out so it applied to all tickets, and you simply chose the route you wanted to suit your needs?

 

[DesireToFire]

Imagine if they'd simply spread the premium out so it applied to all tickets, and you simply chose the route you wanted to suit your needs?

It would be interesting I can only imagine they would be an awful lot busier, you certainly don't get anyone standing on them at the moment!

In some ways I think its fair to charge extra for the service, it is nice having a human walking around checking tickets and providing assistance. Though clearly some people have lost out with the new timetables and now have longer journeys on the old route or quicker journeys on hs1 and that isn't quite so fair.

But it is such a different experience traveling on them vs the rather than the 466s (which look rather grubby, thought they are reasonably comfortable). Having only 3 stops between say Gravesend and London vs typically 10+ on the alternate routes is amazing and arriving at the modern and stylish St Pancras station rather than London Bridge is a pretty nice difference.

Like I said I would happily pay the difference but unfortunately for the location I work in it wouldn't make my journey any quicker, it would only add more changes.

 

[466.networkers]

The "extra" cost really only applies beyond Ebbsfleet- on the 3rd rail network the trains that run onto HS1 can be used by all passengers.

The High Speed Premium applies from Gravesend if you're coming from Faversham/Chatham.

 

[jon0844]

Like I said I would happily pay the difference but unfortunately for the location I work in it wouldn't make my journey any quicker, it would only add more changes.

I can't see myself ever using the 'old' route for the occasions I go into Kent - as I'd value the premium to get a seat on a new train and travel from a station next to where I come into (King's Cross). Yes, that is as snobbish as it sounds - but why not?!

But, if I was a commuter using the train every day, I'd be livid to have the other services cut and slowed down to try and force me to use it.

It has many similarities to the congestion charge, especially considering it does keep the numbers down as if it's a charge to keep things exclusive for the wealthier users.

Is the premium covering the (loss of) passengers it would have if the supplement didn't exist?

 

[DesireToFire]

Is the premium covering the (loss of) passengers it would have if the supplement didn't exist?

Thats quite an interesting point, considering they run the other trains as well you'd ass ume they aren't losing out either way..

 

[466.networkers]

The premium is really to pay for the new trains - they don't exactly come cheap y'know!

Rumour has it that SET have ordered one (or 6 depending on where you hear it from) more Class 395s at a cost running into multiple millions.

 

[DesireToFire]

Rumour has it that SET have ordered one (or 6 depending on where you hear it from) more Class 395s at a cost running into multiple millions.

That seems suppressing relative to how busy they seem, though i don't know how busy the ashford trains are and they obviously have the biggest gain all-round.

They certainly seem to run quite a few trains in 12 car formation during the peak times (Can they open all the doors at every station?) but they always have plenty of empty seats.

Maybe for the Olympics?

 

[466.networkers]

That seems suppressing relative to how busy they seem, though i don't know how busy the ashford trains are and they obviously have the biggest gain all-round.

Well, the busiest High Speed service I've been on was the 1955 STP-FAV a week or so ago, most of the seats were full, it was only one unit, so it was pretty busy (earlier problems most probably had an effect on it!)

They certainly seem to run quite a few trains in 12 car formation during the peak times (Can they open all the doors at every station?) but they always have plenty of empty seats.

Recently I have noticed a few Peak short formed services to Broadstairs, 6 vice 12, always due to a train fault, no ideas as to what's causing them, would be interesting to find out ...

Maybe for the Olympics?

That's one of the reasons, also there's bound to be increased frequency, and there are other reasons as well.

 

[DesireToFire]

yeah you've got to give them credit for such new trains they certainly have performed well in the bad weather, but maybe its taken its toll to a certain extent.

Some later evening/night services would be a nice addition, 23:55 really isn't that late leaving London. Having been on the late departures from the other stations I can see why they might not be so keen (I have to confess to getting on a 395 to chatham whilst somewhat drunk and talking excessively to the poor train manager, i bet he was glad when i got off).

Looking at the timetable it doesn't look like the track maintenance is done in the middle of the day anymore, so I guess that might limit late night possibilities.

 

[EWS 58038]

I think it will take a couple of years before the service will be a great succes. Yes I used the first ever Class 395 preview service from St. Pancras to Ashford and was impressed.

But look at Grand Central, their first year in service was crap. They only lost money as poeople were not sure about the company, the were still unknown to the public and no-one knew what to expect from them.

Today their services are running at a profit, with a double class 180 spotted yesterday between London and Sunderland... and this 180 didn't fail and had passengers onboard. So GC now sometimes need a 10 coach train. Who would have sayd that two years ago?

Same rules aply to SET Highspeed. It takes a time for people "finding" the train.

 

[jon0844]

Can you really compare HS1 with GC? I mean, it's a new line but an existing TOC running through existing stations and a couple of new ones, and one that has advertised it heavily. Because of the timetable changes, HS1 is replacing some services that went into Victoria.

A lot of people feel forced to use it and pay more. If there wasn't a supplement, I think we can conclude that it would already be very busy - possibly overcrowded - leaving the old route half empty. I'm not sure how many all-new travellers are counted in all of this, during the off-peaks, for leisure purposes. As I said, for irregular travel, the premium seems acceptable. It is in effect like upgrading to first class.

Everyone who has used HS1 seems to think that it has a totally different feel to it, which is nice, but at the end of the day - is it right for a train operator to do this? Imagine if FCC users had to pay more to go on a 377 over a 319?

 

[EWS 58038]

Let me put it this way.

In the Netherlands we opened the HSL-Zuid between Amsterdam and Rotterdam. A distance of about 50 Kilometers.

Our "FYRA" train runs 1ce per hour in both directions during 15 hours. Thats 30 trains in total per day over the line.

The TOC "NSHispeed" has to pay an annual sum of 168.000.000 + inflation per year to use the line. This is a roughly 25.000. euro's PER TRAIN.

Recent figures show the average usage is below 15% during most of the day becouse people have to pay a 7,40 premium per single for a 20 minutes shorter route. People do not accept this level of service with old coaching stock, which is noisy and unreliable. Making this service a big fat money eating pig at the expanse of the national TOC "NS" user without actually using the service.

Can't believe SET Highspeed is doing worse....

Actually, I think SET will turn the business into a profit within three years.

 

[Pumbaa]

Hang about. SET have persuaded the Govt to let them get up to 6 new Javelins, but Virgin can't get their all their Pendos lengthened to avoid logistical nightmares from 2011?

Spherical objects.

 

[466.networkers]

Hang about. SET have persuaded the Govt to let them get up to 6 new Javelins, but Virgin can't get their all their Pendos lengthened to avoid logistical nightmares from 2011?

Spherical objects.

It's only a rumour at the moment Pumbaa, nothing concrete yet.

 

[anonymous0101]

I think the 395s are great, find them brilliant for getting to and from nights out in London (wish I could get them to work).

But it has to be said the difference in ride quality between 125 and 140 is very notable, they feel much more comfortable at 125, they (arguably)feel less stable than the Eurostar at 186 at 140, the Eurostar are way ahead in terms of ride quality and sound proofing. But they do have somewhat different purposes and the 395s certainly fit there use very well.

They usually run at 140 mph as the timings are so tight. I think the articulation the Eurostar has gives them a smoother ride.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Quite a few interesting points in this thread:

Firstly, I've used the 395s quite a bit and I would say that although slower than Eurostar, they actually feel faster and are somewhat more fun to ride on. Yes, I do think the articulation on the Eurostar is where the difference comes in that respect.

Secondly, most of the HS1 services do seem to run up to at least 135mph and a large number do touch the full 140mph. But there is quite a bit of slack in the timetable because yes, it is timed for 126mph. During the second snow period this year I caught a late running up service at Ashford; roughly 20 minutes down. The driver very expertly took it to the limit ( and, I stress, not over the limit at all ) and in combination with the slickest, best-executed station stops I have ever seen at Ebbsfleet and Stratford, recovered about half the deficit by arrival at St Pancras.

Thirdly, about the passenger volumes - there is an intense burst of additional down services out of St Pancras for the evening peak, but these all depart close to 17.00. I have observed these, and travelled on them, and found them quite lightly loaded. Since most people leave work between 17.00 and 17.30 ( and then have to get to St Pancras! ) I consider that this "burst" of services should be re-timed for either 30 or 60 minutes later. I mentioned this to SET and the reply came that my comments have been passed on to the train planners.

Finally, has anyone any idea as to whether or not the remaining classic services - both peak and off peak - in and out of Victoria are rather crowded or not following the timetable change? If they are, then that would be a good indication that the balance of services is not right.

 

[jon0844]

If the trains are running at 140mph but timed for 125/6mph then doesn't that just mean they sit at stations for ages?

What do passengers think about this?

 

[A60K]

Between Stratford and Ebbsfleet the difference between 125 and 140 is only about 1 minute, between Ebbsfleet and Ashford only about 2 minutes. All it takes is a slightly late departure from any of the stations to make going above 125 necessary.

I'm not sure of the exact financial penalties for late running on HS1, but believe they are higher than on the classic services. If a SE HS service delays a Eurostar for say 3 minutes it potentially loses its path through the Channel Tunnel, and subsequently on the LGV south of Lille. That can easily cause a 15-20 minute late arrival at Paris Nord.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Yes, that's true - I've even seen up 395s held at Stratford for up to 5 minutes to allow Eurostars to pass!

They are rather strict on the pathing; on one occasion in February a down 395 "sat down" at Stratford for about 20 minutes with some kind of minor fault; the following service was sent through non-stop even though a number of people were waiting for it.



Edited to add: 395 005 doesn't seem to have been running for some months?

 

[anonymous0101]

Quite a few interesting points in this thread:

Firstly, I've used the 395s quite a bit and I would say that although slower than Eurostar, they actually feel faster and are somewhat more fun to ride on. Yes, I do think the articulation on the Eurostar is where the difference comes in that respect.

Secondly, most of the HS1 services do seem to run up to at least 135mph and a large number do touch the full 140mph. But there is quite a bit of slack in the timetable because yes, it is timed for 126mph. During the second snow period this year I caught a late running up service at Ashford; roughly 20 minutes down. The driver very expertly took it to the limit ( and, I stress, not over the limit at all ) and in combination with the slickest, best-executed station stops I have ever seen at Ebbsfleet and Stratford, recovered about half the deficit by arrival at St Pancras.

I wonder if there is more time allowed in the Up direction? I generally travel in the down direction. From a cab ride I've had its impossible to maintain full speed constantly like Pendolino's and Class 91s can on their respective lines due to the gradients on the line. The Class 395s are not powerful enough to maintain even a 200 kph (125 mph) balancing speed on the steepest gradients of 1 in 40.

Thirdly, about the passenger volumes - there is an intense burst of additional down services out of St Pancras for the evening peak, but these all depart close to 17.00. I have observed these, and travelled on them, and found them quite lightly loaded. Since most people leave work between 17.00 and 17.30 ( and then have to get to St Pancras! ) I consider that this "burst" of services should be re-timed for either 30 or 60 minutes later. I mentioned this to SET and the reply came that my comments have been passed on to the train planners.

Finally, has anyone any idea as to whether or not the remaining classic services - both peak and off peak - in and out of Victoria are rather crowded or not following the timetable change? If they are, then that would be a good indication that the balance of services is not right.

Well I use the classic services as I cannot use HS1 in the peak on my Priv pass and to be fair at the moment i would say they are not too overcrowded. However they are a lot slower with extra stops at Longfield and Meopham, as well as either calling at Newington or Teynham. This is obviously because stopper that used to run from Victoria to Faversham now terminates at Rochester.