How Often Does a Driver Forget to Stop at a Station and What Are the Consequences?

[185143]

I had a fail to call on my first ever railtour. Forgot about that one, it was the evening leg of a Pathfinder tour from Crewe to Rose Hill Marple. We were, after a late change to the schedule, booked to call at Warrington Bank Quay (much to my annoyance!) However we roared straight through!

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Class 101 Conwy early 1990s driver forgot to stop. Slammed on stopped in the tunnel (Bangor bound) guard gave 3 buzzes reversed we all got off.

We also hit the buffers at Llandudno on a 101 a few months later and all ended up on the floor. As was the thing in them days. Got up, brushed ourselves down and went about our business.

 

[tagun1]

My curiosity led to this thread. It actually happened to me today; my train Kings Cross bound formed of an IC225 set was booked to call at Grantham, but we found ourselves hurtling through the station at almost 100mph when he realised and applied the emergency brakes. Lucky for the driver the signaller allowed him to reverse back into Grantham, but the look on his face on the platform said it all, he was in for some big doo doo when he got to Kings Cross!

 

[Stigy]

My curiosity led to this thread. It actually happened to me today; my train Kings Cross bound formed of an IC225 set was booked to call at Grantham, but we found ourselves hurtling through the station at almost 100mph when he realised and applied the emergency brakes. Lucky for the driver the signaller allowed him to reverse back into Grantham, but the look on his face on the platform said it all, he was in for some big doo doo when he got to Kings Cross!

Why was it lucky for him he was allowed to set back in to the station? Either way he’s had an incident.

 

[43066]

Why was it lucky for him he was allowed to set back in to the station? Either way he’s had an incident.

Indeed. To be honest in that situation I think I’d rather be told to continue onwards, if only to avoid the walk of shame!

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

My curiosity led to this thread. It actually happened to me today; my train Kings Cross bound formed of an IC225 set was booked to call at Grantham, but we found ourselves hurtling through the station at almost 100mph when he realised and applied the emergency brakes. Lucky for the driver the signaller allowed him to reverse back into Grantham, but the look on his face on the platform said it all, he was in for some big doo doo when he got to Kings Cross!

I didn't think setting back / reversing was allowed these days. I thought the driver had to key out , walk to the other cab key in and drive in facing the direction of travel?

Or am I mistaken?

 

[43066]

I didn't think setting back / reversing was allowed these days. I thought the driver had to key out , walk to the other cab key in and drive in facing the direction of travel?

Or am I mistaken?

You aren’t mistaken. Setting back equals changing ends and driving bang road.

 

[Dieseldriver]

Why was it lucky for him he was allowed to set back in to the station? Either way he’s had an incident.

Exactly.

 

[Highlandspring]

I thought the driver had to key out , walk to the other cab key in and drive in facing the direction of travel?

They do, but people who aren’t railway staff tend to talk about “reversing” presumably because that’s what they’re used to from driving cars.

 

[Dieseldriver]

I didn't think setting back / reversing was allowed these days. I thought the driver had to key out , walk to the other cab key in and drive in facing the direction of travel?

Or am I mistaken?

The Driver would have changed ends and driven the train back in the wrong direction back to the platform with the Signallers authority. The driver would have then changed ends once again to continue the journey as normal.
A personal note, I’ve been in this situation as a Driver and it’s not a nice place to be to still have to drive that train to its destination when you’ve just had an incident like this. The journey back I was thinking about the limitation on potential job prospects with that incident now permanently on my record, the investigation, the interview, the action plan and the dent in my professional pride.

 

[6Gman]

That’s interesting.

I remember at my last place after a timetable change we had a spate of misprinted diagrams, missing out a station where every train in passenger service called (Waterloo East). This necessitated a call to the signaller to confirm stopping pattern, otherwise stopping was technically stopping out of course.

It really isn’t cricket to be issued with incorrect diagrams given how seriously errors by drivers are taken. Despite complaints the issue continued until a few drivers simply drove through without stopping, exactly as their diagrams required (and after making appropriate announcements).

Funnily enough the diagramming errors soon stopped after that!

That seems very bad form, especially if not very quickly corrected.

I was thinking more of one-off trains (I had the misfortune to be involved in diagramming charter work toward the end of my career). A colleague missed an ECML stop (possibly Grantham) on a southbound return charter - the late night taxi bills from Peterborough to Grantham, Lincoln, Nottingham and sundry other points rather concentrated minds!

 

[rick9525]

As for missed stations the only one I can remember was a special BBC North West Tonight charter train around 1990/1991 to Carlisle missed Wilmslow. I think the train waited at Stockport (where we boarded) and a taxi brought the stranded passengers.

Slightly different, one Bank Holiday Monday around 2003/2004 I was catching an early morning train to work in Bredbury from Marple. It was during the Trent Valley works on the WCML so Midland Mainline were running direct trains to Piccadilly through the Hope Valley to add capacity. My train was delayed by a late running HST which then decided to breakdown after passing Bredbury. This meant my train was diverted via Hyde Central on a fast run to Piccadilly. I asked the guard would he make a special stop at Woodley so I could still arrive at work albeit with a longer walk. He agreed and I was able to alight
The HST must have subsequently got going again as I walked passed Bredbury station the next Marple departure had just arrived.

 

[Zontar]

The Driver would have changed ends and driven the train back in the wrong direction back to the platform with the Signallers authority. The driver would have then changed ends once again to continue the journey as normal.
A personal note, I’ve been in this situation as a Driver and it’s not a nice place to be to still have to drive that train to its destination when you’ve just had an incident like this. The journey back I was thinking about the limitation on potential job prospects with that incident now permanently on my record, the investigation, the interview, the action plan and the dent in my professional pride.

Presumably that was a lot of worry/shame to carry....did it damage you in the grand scheme of things or for the long run?

I do sympathise with people in this situation, must be awful feeling.

 

[swaldman]

It’s only a true failure to call if it’s on the driver’s diagram and they’ve blown through it. It’s also a very big deal if it happens, full safety of the line incident, taken off, investigation, medscreen etc.

I was wondering about this. If the driver has missed the stop but has not broken any speed limits, gone through any signals at danger, etc., ie has not done anything dangerous.... I can see that it's a big deal from a commercial perspective (I know how I'd feel as a passenger!), but I'd hope a lesser issue from a driver's career perspective than a safety violation?

 

[flitwickbeds]

I was wondering about this. If the driver has missed the stop but has not broken any speed limits, gone through any signals at danger, etc., ie has not done anything dangerous.... I can see that it's a big deal from a commercial perspective (I know how I'd feel as a passenger!), but I'd hope a lesser issue from a driver's career perspective than a safety violation?

But if the driver is not paying attention enough to know (a) which station they're stopping at next, and/or (b) where that station is in terms of braking distance etc - then what else are they missing?

 

[swaldman]

But if the driver is not paying attention enough to know (a) which station they're stopping at next, and/or (b) where that station is in terms of braking distance etc - then what else are they missing?

I'm not sure that follows - they might be fully situationally aware, hence safe, and just misremember whether they're meant to stop or not.
*shrug* Not really interested in arguing it, was just curious as to whether it's a big deal.

 

[43066]

I'm not sure that follows - they might be fully situationally aware, hence safe, and just misremember whether they're meant to stop or not.
*shrug* Not really interested in arguing it, was just curious as to whether it's a big deal.

It is a big deal in the sense it’s treated as a safety of the line incident, and will be on drivers’ personal records disclosed to new employers by previous TOCs. Whether it should be is debatable, exactly as you say I’d suggest it’s inconvenient rather than unsafe.

 

[flitwickbeds]

I'm not sure that follows - they might be fully situationally aware, hence safe, and just misremember whether they're meant to stop or not.
*shrug* Not really interested in arguing it, was just curious as to whether it's a big deal.

To be honest I'm not sure it necessarily follows either - drivers are human, humans make mistakes. I was kind of playing Devil's Advocate. But I don't see any other way for someone paid so much to be professional and safety-critical, to say "well you weren't paying attention and/or you didn't know where you were supposed to be stopping, but it's OK, no action needed".

 

[MotCO]

To be honest I'm not sure it necessarily follows either - drivers are human, humans make mistakes. I was kind of playing Devil's Advocate. But I don't see any other way for someone paid so much to be professional and safety-critical, to say "well you weren't paying attention and/or you didn't know where you were supposed to be stopping, but it's OK, no action needed".

But if it was an irregular calling pattern, or an infrequently called-at station, and it was a single mistake, then maybe it's a 'tea with biscuits' meeting. If it was one of many 'fail to calls' by the driver, then you can forget the biscuits and probably the tea as well!

 

[185143]

I had a fail to call at Carlton on an EMR Newark Castle semi fast once. The driver carried on, after reporting it at Lowdham, and was taken off duty at Newark with a spare driver being taxied out to work the train back. He looked absolutely gutted.

 

[James James]

Will ECTS end any remaining reversing back - I have read that setting up a cab takes quite a long time??

ETCS does have a reversing mode - it was designed for getting out of tunnels the way you came without a cab switch to be fair - but it's not like they don't know that trains need to go backwards sometimes.

But I also can't imagine a cab switch takes all that long with a good implementation - after all a lot of SBB trains have ETCS and can manage a turnaround in minutes. Disclaimer: most of those trains are actually running using legacy signalling systems except when on the ETCS L2 train lines, but all new deliveries are 100% ETCS (or 100% ETCS domestic, alternative signalling systems internationally).

 

[Meerkat]

But I also can't imagine a cab switch takes all that long with a good implementation

In an article about Shrewsbury signalbox it mentions about it taking 4 mins to set up the cab on a reversing ETCS train. So doing that twice would be an issue

 

[craigybagel]

In an article about Shrewsbury signalbox it mentions about it taking 4 mins to set up the cab on a reversing ETCS train. So doing that twice would be an issue

2 minutes is probably closer to reality. It's frustrating compared to every other unit where you can just key in and go, but it's not as bad as 4 minutes.

Plus future installations of ETCS equipment are likely to come from a more reputable supplier than Ansaldo.....

AIUI, bidirectional signalling is a lot easier to implement under ETCS, so it might actually turn out to be advantageous in a station overrun.

 

[James James]

In an article about Shrewsbury signalbox it mentions about it taking 4 mins to set up the cab on a reversing ETCS train. So doing that twice would be an issue

Like I said, I've seen an entire turnaround happen quite quickly in Switzerland, I think it was 3-4 minutes from arrival to departure _including_ walking along the train and waiting for passengers to do their thing and waiting for scheduled departure. Wouldn't be possible if it actually took 4 minutes to boot up...

But that reminds me of something more relevant: I think I did once see a loco doing a run-around on an ETCS L2 line, without any special delays that I could see. A loco isn't an MU but still...

So as craigybagel hints at, don't worry about what existing systems in the UK are like... there's a whole world of people already using ETCS for more significant operations out there.

 

[flitwickbeds]

But if it was an irregular calling pattern, or an infrequently called-at station, and it was a single mistake, then maybe it's a 'tea with biscuits' meeting. If it was one of many 'fail to calls' by the driver, then you can forget the biscuits and probably the tea as well!

Arguably a driver on autopilot is worse than someone simply forgetting to stop or misreading a diagram. Also worse for the customer experience - as those stations will have less trains stopping and therefore passengers are delayed even more than the bigger station one stop down the line which has quadruple the services.

 

[WL113]

Anyone remember the opening day of the new Sandwell and Dudley station in 1984? Dignitaries on the platform, brass band playing, the very first train due to call is approaching.... It ran straight through without stopping!!!

 

[D6130]

Anyone remember the opening day of the new Sandwell and Dudley station in 1984? Dignitaries on the platform, brass band playing, the very first train due to call is approaching.... It ran straight through without stopping!!!

Exactly the same thing happened with Haddenham & Thame Parkway in 1988 and Bentley in 1991. However, in both those cases the driver had not been informed and so was not to blame.

 

[bluesfromagun]

Back when Scotrail had the temporary 365s, I saw two overshoot the short platform 3 in Dunblane, it's a 25mph loop off the down line, one simply had the front set off doors maybe 1/4 of the way over the slope at the end of the platform. The driver opened his door and after looking down carefully at the position, walked to the back of the train and drove it back quite a bit further than was strictly necessary. Everyone was standing around impatiently at the doors as this was carried out!

Another time the train overshot by just over half a coach, similar process ensuing.

Anyone have a clue why this might have happened with 365s so much, given I haven't seen it was the DMUs before or the 385s since?

That's truly bizarre. Dunblane is very much on an uphill gradient and they would've certainly arrived (has to be a terminator if it was an EMU) to a red. Must've been something weird with the unit brakes, because the hardest thing at Dunblane is not stopping short rather than the other way around!

 

[tagun1]

They do, but people who aren’t railway staff tend to talk about “reversing” presumably because that’s what they’re used to from driving cars.

It’s been 4 years since I was last a railway staff. Complete change of industry, forgot my lingo. Yes he did key out and change ends.

 

[warwickshire]

Last Wednesday in October 1990
47535 on a charter liverpool Lime Street to Carlisle via crewe and stockport and Manchester Victoria.
In order at Carlisle to name a class 90 locomotive BBC north west.
And as well at Carlisle to have a ceremony to celebrate the introduction off class 90 and loco hauled push and pull dvt class 821 services on the wcml.
However as well as various mps.
Press . And even the public was invited to this special train and event.
For a free ride via a bbc radio north west competition name the bird used on the side off intercity services ie the swallow.
HOWEVER on the day the wilmslow call was NOT on the driver's schedule card.
And train sailed through didn't call.
Train held at stockport for 45 minutes so.
So those at missed at wilmslow had taxis to stockport.
Including bbc journalists and stuart hall himself the bbc radio Manchester presenter that named the class 90 bbc north west at Carlisle.
Interesting day and good day out