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How were steam engines designed/drawn up/constructed?

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edwin_m

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because coal was available in the UK, oil wasn't - it had to be imported
That's true. But it didn't stop the LMS building many diesel shunters (precursors of the 08) and the GWR building the railcars. There was also a programme of converting steam locos to oil firing about the time of nationalization.
 
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randyrippley

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That's true. But it didn't stop the LMS building many diesel shunters (precursors of the 08) and the GWR building the railcars. There was also a programme of converting steam locos to oil firing about the time of nationalization.
a programme that was rapidly reversed due to lack of foreign currency

That wouldn't be an issue for a steam railmotor (as used by the GWR and many other pre-grouping companies).
but a technological dead end which complicated maintenance
 

webbfan

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The Midland (and Derby Works in early LMSR days) became a bit over-obsessed with standardisation, and used parts designed for Class 2F and 3F 0-6-0s on larger locomotives - for which those parts -, e.g bearings, valves, etc., - were totally inadequate. The LMS Class 7F 0-8-0s ought to have been brilliant freight locos, but turned out to be poor and troublesome and had very short lives (for freight locos). The LMS Beyer Garratts were also ruined for the same reason, but fortunately Fowler managed to block the use of inadequate components on his Royal Scots and 4MT 2-6-4 tanks.
Not sure that Fowler blocked anything that Anderson wanted - he who crippled the Garratts. When Scots and 2-6-4 4P tanks were in design/under construction Anderson must have blinked :) Believe he only narrowly avoided making mess of Horwich Crabs.

Bulleid apprenticed on the LNER and was promoted to assistant to Gresley before accepting the post of CME on the Southern
And Gresley did his apprenticeship at Crewe :)

Snip

The LMSR was in greater need of new locos, to replace old locos, and also to replace unsuccessful designs that were inefficient / expensive to run -- even if some were relatively young; these included the L&YR 4-6-0s, and the LNWR Claughton 4-6-0s, which both remained inadequate despite several attempts to remedy their faults.
Snip
Not sure about Claughtons remaining inadequate or more than one serious official attempt at sorting out faults ! They were certainly adequate when built - despite having smaller boiler than the CME wanted (had to reduce their weight). They kept to time with heavy loads on WCML day after day. LNWR directors/management were more than happy with them. Cooke was aware of their faults and wanted to sort them out but the war and his untimely death put paid to that. Then the take over by L&Y followed by formation of LMS put Claughtons out of favour. Finally they were rebuilt to what they should have been at the start and if remember correctly it was suggested by AJ Powell that the Patriots weren't needed - much cheaper to continue with rebuild of Claughtons.
Agree the L&Y Dreadnaughts were poor permformers, first action by Hughes as new CME was to rebuild them to be slightly less poor performers. They were never in the same league as the Claughtons though.
 
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Eyersey468

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The Great Western Signal Works in the Caversham Road in Reading. Made everything from locking frames and all the gubbins, level crossing gates to signal posts and arms, finials and platform clocks.

I went round it as a schoolchild in the 1950s and my abiding memory is the smell of new sawn timber.
I didn't know the GWR had a signal works at Reading. Every day is a school day as they say
 

Taunton

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It's an interesting debate whether Gresley should have concentrated on bread-and-butter designs rather than the top flight Pacifics.
I think this goes back to 1926 and the loco exchange between the LNER and GWR, when the Castle was given a huge train out of Kings Cross and, timed by Cecil J Allen, beat any known previous loco up to Finsbury Park with such a load, and performed flawlessly for the rest of the week (on South Yorkshire coal, incidentally, Welsh was not sent through for it). The A3 put on the Cornish Riviera the next week lost time. Apparently Gresley had a very uncomfortable meeting at the end with the LNER directors, it's possibly a bit surprising that he kept his job in the longer term and they didn't go after Stanier before the LMS did. The directors set the style for what they wanted.

I do believe the crews were prepared in different ways, Collett sent his best men from Old Oak Common over the previous week to do multiple trips London to Leeds hanging out of the front droplight, gave them gradient diagrams, and even discussed at length with them and his top inspectors how to handle it. The LNER men were just sent across on the day to be guided by a GWR pilotman.
 

bspahh

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I think this goes back to 1926 and the loco exchange between the LNER and GWR, when the Castle was given a huge train out of Kings Cross and, timed by Cecil J Allen, beat any known previous loco up to Finsbury Park with such a load, and performed flawlessly for the rest of the week (on South Yorkshire coal, incidentally, Welsh was not sent through for it). The A3 put on the Cornish Riviera the next week lost time. Apparently Gresley had a very uncomfortable meeting at the end with the LNER directors, it's possibly a bit surprising that he kept his job in the longer term and they didn't go after Stanier before the LMS did. The directors set the style for what they wanted.

I do believe the crews were prepared in different ways, Collett sent his best men from Old Oak Common over the previous week to do multiple trips London to Leeds hanging out of the front droplight, gave them gradient diagrams, and even discussed at length with them and his top inspectors how to handle it. The LNER men were just sent across on the day to be guided by a GWR pilotman.

Interesting. https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p721368492/hD5626BDA is a photo of Pendennis Castle leaving Kings Cross in 1925.

https://www.steamindex.com/library/allen.htm#exch has a review on a 1950 book from Cecil Allen on the exchange trials:

The locomotive exchanges. 2nd ed. London: Ian Allan, 1950. 176, lix pp.
Ottley 2879: the second edition included a precis of the official report by the Railway Executive on the 1948 exchanges. For other exchanges the 1949 edition is acceptable.
Locomotive practice and performance in the twentieth century.. Cambridge, Heffer, 2nd impression (revised) 1950. xvi, 302 p. + front.+ 64 plates. 151 illus., 7 diagrs., 82 tables.
Includes several chapters, phrased in simple terminology, on the design, mechanics and operation of the steam locomotive, as well as a survey of performance covering the period from about 1910 until the immediate Post-WW2 period. Performance includes City of Truro's record breaking run as well as early test runs with the Merchant Navy class.
In an extensive Foreword he acknowledged photographers: "mention especially Mr. F.E. Mackay, doyen of British express-train photographers, Canon Eric Treacy, Mr. Maurice W. Earley, and my good friends of Rail Photo Service in Boston, U.S.A., who put the whole of their vast collection of spectacular American train "shots" freely at my disposal. Acknowledgment is due also to the Public Relations Officers of British Railways for their assistance in the photographic realm. The ingenious sectional drawings by Mr. A. N. Wolstenholme are a further asset to the book. [then]
Most valuable help has been given by various friends in the revision of the proofs, and in this connection I would accord grateful thanks to Mr. J. Pelham Maitland for his scrutiny of Chapters 1 to 10, Messrs. G. J. Aston, R. E. Charlewood and A. H. Holden for their work on Chapters 11 to 16, and to Mr. Basil K. Cooper for helpful advice on Chapter 19.
I would like to pay my warm tribute to the late Mr. Ernest W. Heffer, who commissioned the book and gave much kindly encouragement during its compilation, but never lived, unfortunately, to see its completion; to his successor, Mr. Reuben Heffer, and Mr. G. Newman, for their ready agreement to all the author's most extravagant requests; and especially to Mr. L.L. Asher, of the publishers' staff, to whose railway enthusiasm the book owes its inception, and whose pleasant company, as cicerone during many lunch-time perambulations of the byways of the beautiful town of Cambridge, will remain one of the pleasantest of recollections of the time during which this volume was in production.
Most of this book was written while there were still four independent railways in Great Britain. Their names often stray into its pages where, more properly, "Regional" titles should take their places. Personally, in common with many others who share equally in the fascination of a railway interest, I cannot but regret that the invigorating competition of the past is now at an end, and that eventually all the locomotive practice of the country is to be forced into a dull mould of rigid standardisation. Fortunately, many years must elapse before all the varied characteristics and lineaments of the past disappear from view, and nothing can extinguish the memories or the glories of the great achievements of byegone days, which this book has attempted to set on record..
 

Tim M

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I don't think anyone would have been copying drawings. I can just about remember at the start of my career when things were drawn by hand on what looked like tracing paper, and could be copied by putting them on top of some special paper then passing them through a machine with a UV tube inside. I think this was quite an old technique. The resulting copy was blue except where there were lines on the master, presumably the origin of the term "blueprint". The originals would have been filed away and the prints given to the people doing more detailed designs of components to show how they fitted together, and ultimately to those making the components themselves.
Engineering drawings would be produced on translucent tracing paper, latterly this would have been a polyester film. The lines and text would use either pencil or ink. Printing copies on paper or linen (for durability) used the dyline process as described on this link. This was common for many engineering purposes, my own being signalling where drawings could be A4 up to A1 or even A0 extended in size, the latter being for long track plans or complex interlocking circuit diagrams.

The use of A4 and A3 photocopy machines and Computer Aided Design saw the end of dyline printing for smaller drawings, and roll plotters virtually eliminated the dyline system.

I still have a piece of linen that was once a drawing, once the chalk like substance is soaked out in water it makes a good duster.

 

coppercapped

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because coal was available in the UK, oil wasn't - it had to be imported
True, but irrelevant.

By 1939 there were 2 million private cars, nearly half a million goods vehicles and 90,000 buses registered for use on the road. The petrol and gasoil/diesel for these was refined from imported crude oil (although some came in already refined) which meant that there was more than sufficient fuel readily available for the emerging secondary services.

Engineering drawings would be produced on translucent tracing paper, latterly this would have been a polyester film. The lines and text would use either pencil or ink. Printing copies on paper or linen (for durability) used the dyline process as described on this link. This was common for many engineering purposes, my own being signalling where drawings could be A4 up to A1 or even A0 extended in size, the latter being for long track plans or complex interlocking circuit diagrams.

The use of A4 and A3 photocopy machines and Computer Aided Design saw the end of dyline printing for smaller drawings, and roll plotters virtually eliminated the dyline system.

I still have a piece of linen that was once a drawing, once the chalk like substance is soaked out in water it makes a good duster.

For what it's worth the largest sheets of drawing paper I saw were at Boeing Aerospace's plant in Seattle in the mid-1970s. The sheets, and drawing boards, must have been about 25 yards long and six foot high. Several draughtsmen worked on them at the same time using traditional drawing tools, rules, set squares and the like.

We shall never see the like again... :'(
 
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Taunton

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a programme that was rapidly reversed due to lack of foreign currency
Curiously this often-quoted reason didn't apply elsewhere. Cars and trucks were appearing in quantity (particularly the latter, where those discharged from the military often bought a surplus truck, but would need to fuel it). Shipping had almost wholly changed over from coal to oil fuel, and did not seem impacted. Aviation was getting going, and the RAF was still huge. There was also a lot of home heating by paraffin, something long gone.

In the UK, however, oil fuel for steam locomotives was rather wasteful. Even in the USA it was, unless the residual heavy oil was readily available from the refineries, particularly in the western USA, it was essentially a waste product that was burned. Although the oil conversion programme never seemed to work properly anyway (Gerry Fiennes in his books describes first-hand issues with it) I do suspect the foreign exchange bit as something of a smokescreen to conceal a programme which just was not useful. I suspect the government of the era and their associates in the coal mining industry may have had a view as well.
 

DerekC

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True, but irrelevant.

By 1939 there were 2 million private cars, nearly half a million goods vehicles and 90,000 buses registered for use on the road. The petrol and gasoil/diesel for these was refined from imported crude oil (although some came in already refined) which meant that there was more than sufficient fuel readily available for the emerging secondary services.

I think the impact of WWII has to be considered here. Oil from the Middle East was cut off and all supplies had to come across the Atlantic in face of U-boat attacks - hence rationing. There was a big push to cut private car use, focus on domestic supplies of energy (i.e. coal in a train or pedal power on your bike!) wherever possible. I suspect that pyschology went on for some time after the end of the war.
 

coppercapped

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I think the impact of WWII has to be considered here. Oil from the Middle East was cut off and all supplies had to come across the Atlantic in face of U-boat attacks - hence rationing. There was a big push to cut private car use, focus on domestic supplies of energy (i.e. coal in a train or pedal power on your bike!) wherever possible. I suspect that pyschology went on for some time after the end of the war.
I think that there does seem to be a confusion about the availability of oil fuel after the war. I think several events have been conflated which give the impression of extended rationing and the situation has become an urban myth.

From July 1942 no petrol was available to the general public for personal use at all, only for ‘official’ uses. The military was never short of fuel - there might have been local supply difficulties but at a strategic level fuel was available.

Rationed quantities became available again to the general public in June 1945 immediately after the end of the war in Europe. A couple of years later the winter of 1946-47 was long and cold - coal stocks froze, there were power cuts and blackouts; potato stocks froze and rotted and potatoes were rationed which had never happened during the war. In 1947 there was also a strike of transport and dock workers which meant that petrol was again no longer available to civilian users.

Petrol became available again in 1948 on ration; rationing finally ended in 1950. It was briefly re-introduced as a result of the Suez crisis in 1956 but lifted by mid-1957.

At the end of 1946 there were 1.770 million cars licensed for use on the road, which clearly had dropped from the 2 million registered in 1939 - but only by around 250,000. The number rose to 1.98 million at the end of 1950 - when petrol rationing stopped - and to 3.1 million by the end of 1955.

Even allowing for the restricted mileage possible when rationing was in force these numbers show that there was never a significant shortage of oil fuel in the country after the war, and especially not for the very small quantities which would have been needed for railway purposes. I suspect that what had happened with the coal-to-oil burning fiasco was that the Ministry of Fuel and Power wanted to buy the oil directly from the producers and supply it to the railway companies and the Treasury had no dollars available for the transactions, oil being priced in dollars. However companies such as Shell, Esso, National Benzole and others obviously could pay for oil at this time as they sold it quite happily to the private motorist who could only pay in sterling. I suspect an early application of spin…and it has become an urban myth.
 

Peter C

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Apologies all for not responding again recently - the forums have stopped giving me notifications for the thread. :)
I've read through all of the posts and I just wanted to thank everyone for sharing so much about all sorts of engine design - I thought I'd get a few basic response but I've learnt a whole load of stuff through this!

-Peter
 

Taunton

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I suspect that what had happened with the coal-to-oil burning fiasco was that the Ministry of Fuel and Power wanted to buy the oil directly from the producers and supply it to the railway companies and the Treasury had no dollars available for the transactions, oil being priced in dollars. However companies such as Shell, Esso, National Benzole and others obviously could pay for oil at this time as they sold it quite happily to the private motorist who could only pay in sterling.
Oil, like anything, is priced in whatever the supplier wants. Although world oil price has typically been shown in US dollars, there are plenty of oil producers in what was the "Sterling Area". Kuwait and Bahrain, for example, were, and the oil production from there provided much of the UK demand at the time. Aden likewise. Now Aden seems middle-of-nowhere, no oil, but was a UK colony and had huge oil bunkers (from Saudi etc) which many ships through Suez called at to refuel, apparently because it was cheap there. It was also priced in Sterling.
 

edwin_m

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Oil, like anything, is priced in whatever the supplier wants. Although world oil price has typically been shown in US dollars, there are plenty of oil producers in what was the "Sterling Area". Kuwait and Bahrain, for example, were, and the oil production from there provided much of the UK demand at the time. Aden likewise. Now Aden seems middle-of-nowhere, no oil, but was a UK colony and had huge oil bunkers (from Saudi etc) which many ships through Suez called at to refuel, apparently because it was cheap there. It was also priced in Sterling.
However, if the market is dominated by buyers prepared to pay in dollars, and the dollar strengthens, then the sellers of oil to buyers with pounds will want more of them to match what they would get if they sold to someone with dollars instead. I think that's the issue rather than the mechanics of getting hold of dollars to buy stuff with.
 

webbfan

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Hello :)
I've found myself reading more and more about steam engines recently, particularly those built at Swindon by the GWR. Whilst reading through various books by O. S. Nock, Cecil J. Allen and others,
...
Snip
....
-Peter
Should warn you that Nock was a very good writer and Railway Journalist but not a good researcher or serious historian. He does tend to tell a good tale but it doesn't always match the later information that emerges from serious research. Don't think he lied the same way that Stretton did but maybe glosses over some facts and misinterprets some peoples motives or reactions.
So enjoy reading but take with a pinch of salt. Then consult more serious books.
 

Peter C

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Should warn you that Nock was a very good writer and Railway Journalist but not a good researcher or serious historian. He does tend to tell a good tale but it doesn't always match the later information that emerges from serious research. Don't think he lied the same way that Stretton did but maybe glosses over some facts and misinterprets some peoples motives or reactions.
So enjoy reading but take with a pinch of salt. Then consult more serious books.
Ah OK - thanks very much :)
I did notice that a lot of what he wrote was more anecdotal than serious facts and he does go on a bit but I didn't know the details of his writing.
Are there are other authors you'd recommend in the same subject?

-Peter
 

Eyersey468

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Should warn you that Nock was a very good writer and Railway Journalist but not a good researcher or serious historian. He does tend to tell a good tale but it doesn't always match the later information that emerges from serious research. Don't think he lied the same way that Stretton did but maybe glosses over some facts and misinterprets some peoples motives or reactions.
So enjoy reading but take with a pinch of salt. Then consult more serious books.
I hadn't realised that either. Who was Stretton by the way? Not a name I recognise
 

webbfan

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Yep, thats the one. Very good description of why to avoid him by Harry Jack - have a look here :- http://www.lnwrhg.com/articles/stretton/stretton1.php

Most of my reading concerns the LNWR - can give some excellent suggestions for there. But in my humble opinion the best author on any topic in British Railways has got to be Michael Rutherford. https://www.steamindex.com/library/ruthford.htm. Mostly he wrote in the magazine Backtrack, but his articles are well worth reading - as is Backtrack itself. If you go to any heritage railway copies over a year old can be purchased from 10-50p. The first issue is as interesting as their latest. Have read all of them at least once when purchased and will go through again and again !
 

Taunton

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Regarding UK oil burning locomotives, it always seemed strange that 10 years after the 1948 scheme was terminated somewhat prematurely, the WR had another go with 57xx class pannier tank 3711, which worked out of Old Oak Common as an oil burner. Supposedly for one-man operation, but the Class 08 diesel did that, and more than enough of those had already been ordered, so quite why, or how the expenditure was authorised, is not apparent.
 

edwin_m

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Regarding UK oil burning locomotives, it always seemed strange that 10 years after the 1948 scheme was terminated somewhat prematurely, the WR had another go with 57xx class pannier tank 3711, which worked out of Old Oak Common as an oil burner. Supposedly for one-man operation, but the Class 08 diesel did that, and more than enough of those had already been ordered, so quite why, or how the expenditure was authorised, is not apparent.
Interesting. Did they also fit some kind of deadman arrangement, which I've never heard of on a steam loco but I always assumed would be essential to eliminate the second crew member?
 

Clarence Yard

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It was one of those ideas that took so long to be authorised and come to fruition, that the moment for it had long since been overtaken by events.

I was told that the idea was to keep relatively recently built locos in traffic rather than build new. 3711 was the test bed.
 

krus_aragon

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Yep, thats the one. Very good description of why to avoid him by Harry Jack - have a look here :- http://www.lnwrhg.com/articles/stretton/stretton1.php
An interesting read. I think I'd seen a title or two of his, but not happened to pick them up. I have however, read a few of Nock's titles, and found them engaging and interesting, if a little limited in scope.

I now find myself wondering about the accuracy of Nock's titles such as 'Premier Line': where did he get the locomotive lists; are they subject to the same inventiveness as Stretton's? He lists a number of stopwatch-at-the-window timings made by himself and others of LNWR locomotives; might there be any fabrications among them?
 

Taunton

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Cecil J Allen said it was impossible for Nock to have done his prodigious book and magazine output combined with his senior position as Chief Mechanical Engineer at Westinghouse in Chippenham, and that he must have one or more writers ghosting for him; "devilling for him" was Allen's expression.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Thanks for the update on Stainier Webbfan. I didn't realise that he had been at the GWR for quite a while - I thought it had only been a brief stint.
Slightly off the subject, but interesting anecdotally, when Stainer retired he bought a house on the main Chorleywood road. This is only a few miles from my home, and a bit of research identified it as a large white house! Not earth shattering, but it was fun finding out!

I thought Rickmansworth - but interesting (for me) , to know where it was.

Gresley of course lived in Salisbury Manor twixt St Albans and Hatfield , a moated house with local Mallards in residence. No doubt he got a car to Hatfield for his commute to the Kings Cross office. The house was on the market a few years ago.....not ridiculous price either.

Going back to Stanier - his influence on the LMS was outstanding , and his comfortable cab design was incredible compared to the appalling GWR cabs. (ditto Bulleid) , they cared for the workforce , seats on GWR main line loco's were only considered post WW1 if you believe the likes of Bill Meyrick on his excellent writings on Neyland GWR.
 

webbfan

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An interesting read. I think I'd seen a title or two of his, but not happened to pick them up. I have however, read a few of Nock's titles, and found them engaging and interesting, if a little limited in scope.

I now find myself wondering about the accuracy of Nock's titles such as 'Premier Line': where did he get the locomotive lists; are they subject to the same inventiveness as Stretton's? He lists a number of stopwatch-at-the-window timings made by himself and others of LNWR locomotives; might there be any fabrications among them?

No one has ever suggested Nock was anything like as inventive as Stretton. Or indeed knowingly published any untruths. No idea where his lists came from, but he had a lot of acquaintances !

I thought Rickmansworth - but interesting (for me) , to know where it was.

Gresley of course lived in Salisbury Manor twixt St Albans and Hatfield , a moated house with local Mallards in residence. No doubt he got a car to Hatfield for his commute to the Kings Cross office. The house was on the market a few years ago.....not ridiculous price either.

Going back to Stanier - his influence on the LMS was outstanding , and his comfortable cab design was incredible compared to the appalling GWR cabs. (ditto Bulleid) , they cared for the workforce , seats on GWR main line loco's were only considered post WW1 if you believe the likes of Bill Meyrick on his excellent writings on Neyland GWR.

But Gresley was buried in Netherseal near the villages named after the family in Derbyshire - only a few miles from Leicestershire (where I live).

Don't think Stanier designed much on the LMS, he was a very good judge of character and built an excellent team - except perhaps ES Cox. Most of the design came from his chief draughtsman - Tom Coleman - although Ivatt was the man interested in Cabs and labour saving devices. Believe Ivatt even built a full size wooden prototype so could get feel of layout.
 
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Bevan Price

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I think that there does seem to be a confusion about the availability of oil fuel after the war. I think several events have been conflated which give the impression of extended rationing and the situation has become an urban myth.

From July 1942 no petrol was available to the general public for personal use at all, only for ‘official’ uses. The military was never short of fuel - there might have been local supply difficulties but at a strategic level fuel was available.

Rationed quantities became available again to the general public in June 1945 immediately after the end of the war in Europe. A couple of years later the winter of 1946-47 was long and cold - coal stocks froze, there were power cuts and blackouts; potato stocks froze and rotted and potatoes were rationed which had never happened during the war. In 1947 there was also a strike of transport and dock workers which meant that petrol was again no longer available to civilian users.


Yes, that awful winter of 1946/47 led to coal shortages, see:


That was the reason for converting some steam locos. to oil firing. Generally, the results of the conversion were not brilliant, because combustion arrangements designed for coal fires differ from those required for oil firing. Doubtless they could have improved steam loco designs to make them perform better with oil firing (as happened, for example in Germany), but the UK coal shortages eased, and the need for oil-fired steam locos - using imported oil - ended.

Needless to say - and probably aided by the pro-tory newspapers - the Labour government was blamed for the bad winter and its consequences, and lost a lot of seats at the next election.
 

The Crab

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"

"Don't think Stanier designed much on the LMS, he was a very good judge of character and built an excellent team - except perhaps ES Cox. "

What do you think Cox's shortcomings were?
 
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