How would the Underground look today if these stations closed?

[Scotrail12]

Was reading through the Down Street Wikipedia page and found this:

1. The report recommending closure recorded that the station had an annual usage of 1,236,250 passengers and takings of £5,005. The other stations considered for closure were York Road (closed 1932), Brompton Road (closed 1934), Regent's Park, Mornington Crescent, Hyde Park Corner, Gillespie Road (now Arsenal), Gloucester Road and Covent Garden.

As you can see, they suggested 9 stations for closure back in 1929, most of which were on the Piccadilly Line. 3 of them did close (Down Street, Brompton Road & York Road) however the other 6 remain open to this day.

Just for a bit of speculation - how do you think that the tube network would look today if the other 6 stations closed in the 30s? Would they have reopened? Would new stations have been built? Would they have upgraded other stations? What are your thoughts? Covent Garden in particular seems like a weird one to close in hindsight.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Covent Garden in particular seems like a weird one to close in hindsight.

In some aspects, it makes sense. High operational costs and low station capacity with the lifts, however the area is already very well served, which, at a guess, would've begged a question of its need.

 

[Snow1964]

You also have to remember that many of these were fairly close to other stations, and the adding of escalators (which slope, unlike lifts which are vertical) often meant new entrances ended up nearer the stations proposed for closure.

As Down Street has been mentioned, the new Green Park station entrance (on corner of Stratton Street) is rather nearer Down Street than the original entrance in Dover Street (even though it uses same stairs to platforms). Effectively station entrance moved making other one less needed

Also by 1929 was plan for longer trains, and all the Cockfosters extension stations had longer platforms than those that closed, so avoided cost of lengthening tunnel platforms at some stations.

 

[Scotrail12]

In some aspects, it makes sense. High operational costs and low station capacity with the lifts, however the area is already very well served, which, at a guess, would've begged a question of its need.

The station is always really busy though (except for recently when there has been no tourists - it was actually closed for a while).

 

[Belperpete]

Was reading through the Down Street Wikipedia page and found this:

1. The report recommending closure recorded that the station had an annual usage of 1,236,250 passengers and takings of £5,005. The other stations considered for closure were York Road (closed 1932), Brompton Road (closed 1934), Regent's Park, Mornington Crescent, Hyde Park Corner, Gillespie Road (now Arsenal), Gloucester Road and Covent Garden.

Regents Park, Mornington Crescent, Hyde Park Corner and Covent Garden I can understand. But a bit surprised that Gloucester Road was slated for closure. There is a lot of housing north of Cromwell Road that neither Earls Court or South Ken are particularly well-sited for.

 

[hermit]

Mornington Crescent did close in 1992 when its lifts were life-expired. At the time LT said they couldn’t afford to replace them, and as I recall permanent closure was mooted. However, work was eventually carried out and it was reopened in 1998 following refurbishment. The ceremony was carried out by Humphrey Lyttelton and other members of the ‘I’m Sorry I Haven’t A Clue‘ team. I’ve often thought that visits from the programme’s fans must have boosted the station’s passenger figures a bit.

 

[edwin_m]

At the time Covent Garden would have been a trader's market not the tourist honeypot it is today. As such I imagine the station would have been very quiet and as mentioned it's close to others.

For some reason the Piccadilly was built with a closer stop spacing than other lines so was a good candidate for closing some of them. Although unless alternate ones were closed that would have led to some very uneven stop spacings. Hyde Park Corner is only 250m from Knightsbridge (and the former entrance is west of the current one, now part of a hotel) but I wonder if it was a choice between closing it and closing Down Street rather than closing both.

Paris Metro has a much closer stop spacing but it's at a much shallower level than the Tube lines in London. So stations would have been cheaper to build and also quicker to access, whereas the time taken to get down and back up at Piccadilly stations means a one-station hop can take longer than walking.

You also have to remember that many of these were fairly close to other stations, and the adding of escalators (which slope, unlike lifts which are vertical) often meant new entrances ended up nearer the stations proposed for closure.

Thinking about this, perhaps they missed a trick and they could have closed half the Piccadilly stations but installed escalators at both ends of the others, sloping up away from the platforms. This would have provided twice as many station entrances, giving similar coverage at ground level but with the train stopping only half as many times.

It's also a shame the former lift shafts can't be re-used for PRM access (although this would invalidate my previous suggestion!). However most of them went to a lower lobby from which there were steps to the platform, not right to platform level.

 

[Belperpete]

Hyde Park Corner is only 250m from Knightsbridge (and the former entrance is west of the current one, now part of a hotel) but I wonder if it was a choice between closing it and closing Down Street rather than closing both.

Just how busy is Hyde Park Corner station? Looking on a map, it is largely surrounded by parkland: Hyde Park (obviously!), Green Park and Buckingham Palace Gardens. There are very few areas that don't look to be almost equally well served by either Knightsbridge or Green Park stations.

 

[edwin_m]

Just how busy is Hyde Park Corner station? Looking on a map, it is largely surrounded by parkland: Hyde Park (obviously!), Green Park and Buckingham Palace Gardens. There are very few areas that don't look to be almost equally well served by either Knightsbridge or Green Park stations.

I've used it several times and it didn't strike me as especially quiet, despite that lack of catchment and the need to access it by a rather forbidding network of subways under the road junction. But going by the figures linked below it's in the bottom third of inner London stations, with Knightsbridge also only on the Piccadilly but having three times as many passengers.

London Underground Performance Reports – London Datastore

data.london.gov.uk

Down Street has a similar problem with half its potential catchment being in Green Park, but closing both of them would have created a gap of at over a mile between stations. This sounds too much for Central London, longer than any of the central area stop intervals on the Victoria Line where it was deliberately decided to space them further apart.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

The station is always really busy though (except for recently when there has been no tourists - it was actually closed for a while).

These proposals weren't put forward with today's level of ridership though.

 

[Howardh]

Mornington Crescent did close in 1992 when its lifts were life-expired. At the time LT said they couldn’t afford to replace them, and as I recall permanent closure was mooted. However, work was eventually carried out and it was reopened in 1998 following refurbishment. The ceremony was carried out by Humphrey Lyttelton and other members of the ‘I’m Sorry I Haven’t A Clue‘ team. I’ve often thought that visits from the programme’s fans must have boosted the station’s passenger figures a bit.

Yes, me a couple of weeks ago. Tapped in, had a look round, with the intention of a trip to Chalk farm. Got to Chalk farm, was closed!! Presumably due to covid which made me wonder why Mornington Crescent remained open? Googe St was also closed.

 

[Scotrail12]

These proposals weren't put forward with today's level of ridership though.

True. I wonder if that means they would have reopened it eventually. Not sure if that's ever happened, even the proposed plans to reopen York Road haven't led to much.

Yes, me a couple of weeks ago. Tapped in, had a look round, with the intention of a trip to Chalk farm. Got to Chalk farm, was closed!! Presumably due to covid which made me wonder why Mornington Crescent remained open? Googe St was also closed.

Mornington Crescent and most of the lift/emergency stairs Northern Line stations were closed, they reopened them in phases. Not sure why Chalk Farm wasn't among the first to reopen though since it has such a short spiral staircase as opposed to Belsize Park which has nearly 4x the number of steps and remained open the entire time.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

True. I wonder if that means they would have reopened it eventually. Not sure if that's ever happened, even the proposed plans to reopen York Road haven't led to much.

Very likely they would've just carried out further upgrades to the surrounding stations. Probably would've been cheaper than upgrading a closed station, and its platforms with line closures, to modern safety standards at time of reopening.

 

[Mojo]

Hyde Park Corner is a very quiet station. It’s problem is that for most of the year it is extremely quiet and thus does not warrant investment (for example in a third escalator to replace the central staircase), except for 6 weeks during winter (Winter Wonderland) and for irregular days during the summer when where is a concert on in the park or the weather is nice.

 

[Scotrail12]

Mornington Crescent did close in 1992 when its lifts were life-expired. At the time LT said they couldn’t afford to replace them, and as I recall permanent closure was mooted. However, work was eventually carried out and it was reopened in 1998 following refurbishment. The ceremony was carried out by Humphrey Lyttelton and other members of the ‘I’m Sorry I Haven’t A Clue‘ team. I’ve often thought that visits from the programme’s fans must have boosted the station’s passenger figures a bit.

I think there were other issues with Mornington Crescent - I saw a video of it in the early 90s and it seemed very neglected, they probably had to carry out a lot of other work to make replacing the lifts and reopening worthwhile. Apparently they got rid of the old spiral stairs for some reason.

 

[Mikey C]

Was the proposal to close the whole of Gloucester Road, or just the Piccadilly Line deep platforms? While there would be a saving from removing the deep platforms and lifts, the subsurface Circle/District station would have been cheap to operate

 

[Scotrail12]

Was the proposal to close the whole of Gloucester Road, or just the Piccadilly Line deep platforms? While there would be a saving from removing the deep platforms and lifts, the subsurface Circle/District station would have been cheap to operate

My guess would be Piccadilly only for the reasons you mentioned.

Glad that most of these stations avoided the axe - the Piccadilly is definitely the line with the most character on the Tube network.

 

[PTR 444]

Imagine how busy Leicester Square would be with tourists if Covent Garden had closed...

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Imagine how busy Leicester Square would be with tourists if Covent Garden had closed...

On the other hand, would Covent Garden be as tourist-centric as it is today had the tube station closed?

 

[greyman42]

Imagine how busy Leicester Square would be with tourists if Covent Garden had closed...

I think the tourists would split between Holborn and Covent Garden depending on which direction they come from. I regularly use Holborn when going to Covent Garden to avoid the wait and jostle for lifts.

 

[Mojo]

I think the tourists would split between Holborn and Covent Garden depending on which direction they come from. I regularly use Holborn when going to Covent Garden to avoid the wait and jostle for lifts.

When Covent Garden was operated as “exit only” during the summers of 2013 and 2014 due to lift replacement works, Leicester Sq was unbelievably busy on weekends, in particular during the post-theatre rush which falls at around 21.45-22.30.

The station also had to implement a one-way system and also very frequently was required to close to incoming customers due to overcrowding on the Eastbound Piccadilly line platforms.

 

[Scotrail12]

When Covent Garden was operated as “exit only” during the summers of 2013 and 2014 due to lift replacement works, Leicester Sq was unbelievably busy on weekends, in particular during the post-theatre rush which falls at around 21.45-22.30.

The station also had to implement a one-way system and also very frequently was required to close to incoming customers due to overcrowding on the Eastbound Piccadilly line platforms.

I wonder why they operated it as exit only. To prevent overcrowding there, they should maybe relax a bit more with regards to the stairs, there are so many signs telling people not to use them when they could easily be used by more people so that that crowds can move quicker. Obviously those in poor physical fitness should have to take the lifts but it's common sense.

I bet that TfL wishes it was possible to convert the station to escalator use.

 

[holborncentral]

Mornington Crescent did close in 1992 when its lifts were life-expired. At the time LT said they couldn’t afford to replace them, and as I recall permanent closure was mooted. However, work was eventually carried out and it was reopened in 1998 following refurbishment. The ceremony was carried out by Humphrey Lyttelton and other members of the ‘I’m Sorry I Haven’t A Clue‘ team. I’ve often thought that visits from the programme’s fans must have boosted the station’s passenger figures a bit.

I have a feeling Mornington Crescent would have closed permanently if it hadn't been for Radio 4 listeners and the Mornington Crescent game. They probably helped it to stay open.

 

[Mojo]

I wonder why they operated it as exit only. To prevent overcrowding there, they should maybe relax a bit more with regards to the stairs, there are so many signs telling people not to use them when they could easily be used by more people so that that crowds can move quicker. Obviously those in poor physical fitness should have to take the lifts but it's common sense.

It was because the lifts were being replaced, in 2013 they did one shaft and in 2014 the other shaft, so on each occasion only 2 were available. This was accompanied by significant amounts of publicity stating that crowding would cause prolonged waits to exit and customers should use other stations.

 

[Hadders]

I wonder why they operated it as exit only. To prevent overcrowding there, they should maybe relax a bit more with regards to the stairs, there are so many signs telling people not to use them when they could easily be used by more people so that that crowds can move quicker. Obviously those in poor physical fitness should have to take the lifts but it's common sense.

I bet that TfL wishes it was possible to convert the station to escalator use.

Covent Garden has 193 steps. It really isn't sensible to encourage passengers to use the steps to exit the station. Most would manage ok but there would be significant minority who would think they could manage the climb only to stop half way up for a breather or give up all together and have to turn round and go back. This isn't really what you want in a very busy station full of tourists.

 

[Mikey C]

I have a feeling Mornington Crescent would have closed permanently if it hadn't been for Radio 4 listeners and the Mornington Crescent game. They probably helped it to stay open.

The horribly overcrowded Camden Town would have been a factor too!

 

[BayPaul]

I could certainly see the logic in closing the elevator served platforms on the Pic at Gloucester road. It always seems lightly used whenever I pass through, and it seems silly that both the District and Pic serve the same stations between South Ken and Hammersmith (apart from West Ken). Personally even now I would make Picadilly fast, and also go non stop through baron’s court, but add in Turnham Green, for better interchange, Though I understand that the elderly signalling makes that impractical. I wonder if there will be thoughts of doing this in the future, to save platform edge doors.

 

[Scotrail12]

Covent Garden has 193 steps. It really isn't sensible to encourage passengers to use the steps to exit the station. Most would manage ok but there would be significant minority who would think they could manage the climb only to stop half way up for a breather or give up all together and have to turn round and go back. This isn't really what you want in a very busy station full of tourists.

I get your point given the length of stairs. That said, I've always noticed that they seem to discourage people using emergency stairs at other stations. A few years back, they closed a number of lift only stations for 6-8 months to replace the lifts. I always wondered why they didn't leave the likes of Lancaster Gate (78 steps) or the Piccadilly line Gloucester Road (83 steps) open during lift replacement by use of the stairs, even if exit only. 193 at CG is obviously a lot but almost everyone should manage 78 or 83 steps?

 

[MikeWh]

but almost everyone should manage 78 or 83 steps?

Really? You're talking 6-7 times the number of steps to go upstairs in a normal house. Plenty of older people struggle with one set, which is why many of them move to bungalows.

 

[A Challenge]

Surely if Covent Garden was exit only through lifts, you could allow entrance form the stairs (possibly with warnings still), as going down is much easier?