HST VP185 Engine Replacements

[Inthewest]

Hello
As I understand it, all HSTs were originally Valenta engines.
FGW tested an MTU engine, which most other operators chose as their replacements but Midland Mainline went for a Paxman VP185 version instead.

Was it Midland Mainline that ordered / started fitting these engines? Or had the franchise passed to Stagecoach then?
Were any of these new engines fitted to the old Teal/Orange livery HSTs or were they all in the new Ocean blue/green when fitted?

 

[43096]

Hello
As I understand it, all HSTs were originally Valenta engines.
FGW tested an MTU engine, which most other operators chose as their replacements but Midland Mainline went for a Paxman VP185 version instead.

Was it Midland Mainline that ordered / started fitting these engines? Or had the franchise passed to Stagecoach then?
Were any of these new engines fitted to the old Teal/Orange livery HSTs or were they all in the new Ocean blue/green when fitted?

HST re-engining is a long story, dating back to 1986.

In terms of VP185s, the first four were fitted in the mid-1990s (3 Great Western, 1 East Coast), quickly followed by 4 more for Midland Mainline in 1995/96. Great Western also fitted 4 more power cars shortly afterwards.

MML then converted 14 more in 2002-04 to give them a 50% Valenta / 50% VP185 fleet. By the time the Stagecoach franchise started there were only 7 of the Midland fleet still with Valentas and these were converted early in the franchise using the engines from the Great Western fleet that had by then received MTUs.

That's a very short summary.

 

[hexagon789]

For 2004 - 18 Midland Mainline power cars with VP185s and 7 FGW according to Platform 5.

 

[43096]

For 2004 - 18 Midland Mainline power cars with VP185s and 7 FGW according to Platform 5.

Yep. What power rating were Platform 5 quoting at the time for the VP?

 

[DB]

The first power cars to get the MTUs were 43004 and 43009 (both of which remain in use with GWR). Last two were 43272 and 43274, which both previously had VP185s. These two remain in use with EMR, but obviously not for much longer.

 

[hexagon789]

Yep. What power rating were Platform 5 quoting at the time for the VP?

2,250hp

 

[Strathclyder]

When discussing HST powerplant replacements, the 4 powercars (43167-170) that received the Mirrlees-Blackstone MB190 in the mid/late 80s warrant a mention; I believe these were the first powercars to be re-engined as @43096 notes above. They weren't spectacularly successful however and the MB190 wasn't fitted to any other powercars. Am open to be corrected here, but didn't one of the above quartet of powercars go on to have a VP185 installed at some point before being MTU-ed (or something along those lines)? 167 seems to ring a bell. Again, am open to be corrected.

For those curious, here is a MB190-fitted powercar (168 to be precise) in service back in 1989 (from the Robert Masterman YT channel). Skip to 3:26 for the clip in question. Contrast and compare with the then-standard issue Valenta powercar at the back!

 

[fgwrich]

The first power cars to get the MTUs were 43004 and 43009 (both of which remain in use with GWR). Last two were 43272 and 43274, which both previously had VP185s. These two remain in use with EMR, but obviously not for much longer.

Those two had a bit of an interesting livery variation too, having been briefly used for Angel / MTU / Brush / First Group promotional scheme, before receiving FGW Barbie with the new headlights (So perhaps the last two in Barbie, but first with the new engine), before receiving the very short lived Dynamic Lines on Power Car schemes for the franchise launch.

43053 & 43056 were also oddballs in the FGW Fleet. These two eventually coming to FGW in late 2009 via many years with Midland Mainline and a short period with GNER / NXEC. Midland Mainline had fitted these two with upgraded electronics & WSP from BRUSH (which laterally became standard across the MML, EC and XC Fleets but not FGW). As such, upon release from it's refurbishment at BRUSH Loughborough, 43053 was briefly numbered as 43253, however was quickly changed back to 053 as no other FGW power cars had been renumbered.

0704-43253

07/04/09 - Cotswold Rail / Advenza Freight Class 47818 "Emily" with First Great Western 43253, 5Z43 Loughborough Brush Works - Swansea Landore

www.flickr.com

 

[Inthewest]

Thank you everyone.

 

[43096]

When discussing HST powerplant replacements, the 4 powercars (43167-170) that received the Mirrlees-Blackstone MB190 in the mid/late 80s warrant a mention; I believe these were the first powercars to be re-engined as @43096 notes above. They weren't spectacularly successful however and the MB190 wasn't fitted to any other powercars. Am open to be corrected here, but didn't one of the above quartet of powercars go on to have a VP185 installed at some point before being MTU-ed (or something along those lines)? 167 seems to ring a bell. Again, am open to be corrected.

43167-170 were the first recipients of the VP185, losing their MB190s at that point.

43167 was further re-engined back to a Valenta as it was non-standard in the GNER fleet. So it has gone Valenta > MB190 > VP185 > Valenta > MTU. The VP185 removed from 43167 was fitted to FGW's 43165 instead, as the 7th VP185 fitted member of the FGW fleet*.

* note that it was actually the 8th Great Western power car to be fitted, as 43173 was converted shortly before being written off at Southall.

 

[Strathclyder]

43167-170 were the first recipients of the VP185, losing their MB190s at that point.

43167 was further re-engined back to a Valenta as it was non-standard in the GNER fleet. So it has gone Valenta > MB190 > VP185 > Valenta > MTU. The VP185 removed from 43167 was fitted to FGW's 43165 instead, as the 7th VP185 fitted member of the FGW fleet*.

* note that it was actually the 8th Great Western power car to be fitted, as 43173 was converted shortly before being written off at Southall.

Ta for that; had seen 167's powerplant history somewhere before (on here I think), but the specific order had gone right out my head.

Have to admit, I never knew that 173 had been converted prior to Southall though. That's a new one on me.

 

[Cowley]

The Mirrlees (MB190) powered ones were regulars in Exeter from what I remember, but without looking at my books were these on NE/SW workings maybe?
I thought they had quite a nice deep down singing kind of sound compared to the raucousness of the rest of the class.
I do remember at least a couple turning up dead and needing to be dragged over the banks to Plymouth though.

 

[43096]

Have to admit, I never knew that 173 had been converted prior to Southall though. That's a new one on me.

There was a photo of it that showed the bodyside of 173 missing after the collision with its new engine very much visible.

 

[hexagon789]

The Mirrlees (MB190) powered ones were regulars in Exeter from what I remember, but without looking at my books were these on NE/SW workings maybe?
I thought they had quite a nice deep down singing kind of sound compared to the raucousness of the rest of the class.
I do remember at least a couple turning up dead and needing to be dragged over the banks to Plymouth though.

They were all concentrated on one depot, though after the experiment concluded they became very unreliable and it was not unusual for the higher power notches to be locked out purely to keep the power car running albeit with reduced output. Must dig out the book for specifics.

 

[DB]

There was a photo of it that showed the bodyside of 173 missing after the collision with its new engine very much visible.

Wasthe engine reused or was it damaged beyond repair?

 

[43096]

Wasthe engine reused or was it damaged beyond repair?

Re-used. It became a fleet spare for Great Western and passed to Porterbrook / EMT.

 

[Cowley]

They were all concentrated on one depot, though after the experiment concluded they became very unreliable and it was not unusual for the higher power notches to be locked out purely to keep the power car running albeit with reduced output. Must dig out the book for specifics.

Yes looking at it they were all allocated to St Phillips Marsh (Bristol) at the time I was thinking.

 

[hexagon789]

Yes looking at it they were all allocated to St Phillips Marsh (Bristol) at the time I was thinking.

...and by all accounts the staff there hated working on them!

 

[Cowley]

...and by all accounts the staff there hated working on them!

That’s interesting. I wonder what the issues were? You’d think that being a newer design they’d be a bit better to work on?
(I know how naive that sounds )

 

[hexagon789]

That’s interesting. I wonder what the issues were? You’d think that being a newer design they’d be a bit better to work on?
(I know how naive that sounds )

Maintenance was a pig essentially; again if I locate my book I can find specifics. There was also cooling issues and exhaust issues, both of which were never fully resolved.

 

[Strathclyder]

There was a photo of it that showed the bodyside of 173 missing after the collision with its new engine very much visible.

I think I know the pic you're referring to. It was a low-res quality copy I stumbled across though, therefore I couldn't properly make out the engine inside.

At any rate, consider me humbled and educated.