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Hydrogen Class 614 - It moves!

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AMD

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The hydrogen 614 (ex 314) at Bo'ness has been seen moving under it's own power!
 
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Techniquest

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Impressive, but what a noisy beast!

I know basically nothing about this scheme, but it is certainly interesting. The output that can be seen coming from the coach nearest the camera, what is that? I'm not sure what the by-product from using hydrogen is, it sure looks harmless but I'm just wondering what it is.
 

hexagon789

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Impressive, but what a noisy beast!

I know basically nothing about this scheme, but it is certainly interesting. The output that can be seen coming from the coach nearest the camera, what is that? I'm not sure what the by-product from using hydrogen is, it sure looks harmless but I'm just wondering what it is.
Water vapour! ;)

Given the hydrogen is reacted with oxygen...
 

Techniquest

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Water vapour.
As for the noise, it's certainly no worse than any existing diesel.

Water vapour! ;)

Given the hydrogen is reacted with oxygen...

Thanks both, it's been a few too many years since I last looked at chemistry! I was strongly of the impression it was water vapour, but I could not get the tired brain to remember for sure. Obviously, now you mention it, it's super obvious :lol: Too many long days, short nights and nowhere near enough sleep!

As for the noise, I guess so. I think I was expecting something quieter!
 

rangersac

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Strange that it's so noisy. Fuel cells are basically silent in operation, so aside from traction motor noises and compressors I can't think of what the loud fans are for?
 

Irascible

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Thanks both, it's been a few too many years since I last looked at chemistry! I was strongly of the impression it was water vapour, but I could not get the tired brain to remember for sure. Obviously, now you mention it, it's super obvious :lol: Too many long days, short nights and nowhere near enough sleep!

As for the noise, I guess so. I think I was expecting something quieter!
It's a little more fun to think of it as steam :)

The fans? sound about as loud as the air compressors in the vid, for reference ( if you can remember what the compressors on those units sounded like - noticeable but not *that* loud ). Unless you've got some pro gear then camera mics can have all sorts of auto-gain.
 
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gc4946

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Let's hope once it finishes its role as a hydrogen demonstrator, it gets preserved
 

Domh245

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Strange that it's so noisy. Fuel cells are basically silent in operation, so aside from traction motor noises and compressors I can't think of what the loud fans are for?

The fuel cell itself is near silent, but there's a bunch of equipment supporting it such as cooling fans, compressors and driers that will make noise.
 

Purple Train

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Very impressive that it's moving. I don't think it's dreadfully noisy (and I say that as someone who got very frightened by the noise of the Class 323 traction motors as a young child), it's just noisier than a regular 314.
I'm very much looking forward to seeing how other projects come to fruition, and how similar/different they are.
 

102 fan

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Just playing devil's advocate here. What would happen if an accident ruptured the hydrogen tank in a tunnel?
 

BigB

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The fuel cell itself is near silent, but there's a bunch of equipment supporting it such as cooling fans, compressors and driers that will make noise.
It also moved last week but under battery power - the air compressors seemed to be the items making the most noise (I was standing next to it as it moved by). When it moved yesterday I was more aware of the track noise as it crossed pointwork etc. than any sound from the auxiliary equipment though was not quite as close.

Unlike the other UK hydrogen test trains, all equipment is skid mounted below the train, and so seats are fitted in the carriage space ( The old commuter seats being replaced with Pendelino 2+2 seating ahead of the first demo runs with invited guests).

Personally I believe it to be far more worthy of preservation than some other items, but it does take up a lot of room!
 

pdeaves

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Just playing devil's advocate here. What would happen if an accident ruptured the hydrogen tank in a tunnel?
The gas would escape upwards. I can't remember the exact details but I have seen convincing evidence that it will be no worse than any other combustible fuel source. Yes, we all know about Hindenburg but it's very different. As I say, though, I can't remember how it all works. The experts gave a very technical talk, I am a non-expert!
 

102 fan

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The gas would escape upwards. I can't remember the exact details but I have seen convincing evidence that it will be no worse than any other combustible fuel source. Yes, we all know about Hindenburg but it's very different. As I say, though, I can't remember how it all works. The experts gave a very technical talk, I am a non-expert!

Upwards in a tunnel doesn't really exist. How is the Hindenburg different. Same gas, same risk, and in the conditions I said, also a confined space. If they're that sure, let's have a nuclear fuel type destructive test.
 

D821

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I'm no expert, but a fire from rupture in a pipe would be different to a bag of gas made of flammable material, surely? I'm not saying it would be without risk, but we drive round in cars with tanks full of highly flammable petrol.
 

102 fan

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I'm no expert, but a fire from rupture in a pipe would be different to a bag of gas made of flammable material, surely? I'm not saying it would be without risk, but we drive round in cars with tanks full of highly flammable petrol.

That petrol isn't pressurised.

And very quickly, too.

And when it hits the roof of a tunnel, where does it go?

I don't doubt this could be the future, but I'm genuinely concerned as to the fuel. Have any tests been done to show what happens to the tanks in an accident? If the gas simply rises away, then let us see that. That would settle the matter once and for all.
 

norbitonflyer

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. How is the Hindenburg different. Same gas, same risk, and in the conditions I said, also a confined space.
The 614 isn't covered in a highly inflammable waterproof coating. It is that, not the gas (which rapidly dispersed) that did the damage in the Hindenberg.
 

mpthomson

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Upwards in a tunnel doesn't really exist. How is the Hindenburg different. Same gas, same risk, and in the conditions I said, also a confined space. If they're that sure, let's have a nuclear fuel type destructive test.
A tunnel isn't an enclosed space, it (obviously) has portals at either end. It's different to the Hindenburg in that way, which in any event actually burned due to a coating on the skin, not as a result of the hydrogen it contained (that's not how hydrogen combusts) which rapidly dispersed.

Hydrogen chemistry and combustion are very well understood, and the right simulation packages would easily show what was likely to happen in such an event to people involved in the project development if the risk was deemed great enough to warrant that. There's no need for a real life demonstration just to appease people who don't understand the science.
 

bluenoxid

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Are there any spare Peaks that can be driven into a full fuel tank in a tunnel?

Good to see this progress. Is there any capability of Hydrogen trains having multiple power sources. Will this unit demonstrate that?
 

Royston Vasey

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Are there any spare Peaks that can be driven into a full fuel tank in a tunnel?

Good to see this progress. Is there any capability of Hydrogen trains having multiple power sources. Will this unit demonstrate that?
I knew we shouldn't have scrapped 45015 :)

I don't doubt this could be the future, but I'm genuinely concerned as to the fuel. Have any tests been done to show what happens to the tanks in an accident? If the gas simply rises away, then let us see that. That would settle the matter once and for alall.
Loads and loads, in automotive applications. Search for Toyota Mirai Hydrogen crash test. They shot it with a bullet even, and the gas just hissed away. Not to say it couldn't ignite.

Hydrogen tanks are well established at many scales. Companies like Linde have been storing liquid hydrogen at 875 bar for industry for decades, it being a critical chemical reagent for chemicals and refining.
 
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37201xoIM

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Hmm, if the fans are running constantly that implies it must be generating significant waste heat - how come? That implies inefficiency... Is it a product of the actual hydrogen + oxygen reaction itself being exothermic? In similar vein, I assume that water vapour / steam coming out just below solebar level is at a low temperature? Otherwise I think I've spotted an issue...!
 

102 fan

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It seems hydrogen is now blameless as it is seen as green. Much like plastic went from being the antichrist prior to 2019 to our saviour during covid.

And there's no need for the condescension. It may make you feel superior saying 'There's no need for a real life demonstration just to appease people who don't understand the science.' That's the sort of mindset that was used during the Brexit campaign, and we know how effective that was in increasing the Conservative vote in the North.
 

Energy

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Loads and loads, in automotive applications. Search for Toyota Mirai Hydrogen crash test. They shot it with a bullet even, and the gas just hissed away. Not to say it couldn't ignite.

Hydrogen tanks are a well established at many scales. Companies like Linde have been storing liquid hydrogen at 875 bar for industry for decades, it being a critical chemical reagent for chemicals and refining.
The problem with hydrogen is still making it.
 

37201xoIM

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The problem with hydrogen is still making it.
Indeed - that was in my mind with my comment above re inefficiency and heat losses. As others have said, hydrogen often looks to be a rather inefficient way to carry energy around...
 

contrex

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That petrol isn't pressurised.



And when it hits the roof of a tunnel, where does it go?

I don't doubt this could be the future, but I'm genuinely concerned as to the fuel. Have any tests been done to show what happens to the tanks in an accident? If the gas simply rises away, then let us see that. That would settle the matter once and for all.

I am no expert but...

"Once the release (hydrogen leakage or emission) happens in a tunnel, the hydrogen will accumulate inside the tunnel and lead to great risk of deflagration and detonation [10]. Multiple numerical simulation studies have been performed concerning risk assessment of hydrogen releases in tunnels. Middha et al. [11] found that for hydrogen vehicles a typical worst-case risk assessment approach assuming the full gas inventory being mixed homogeneously at stoichiometry could lead to severe explosion loads."

"It was found that ventilation can greatly influence the distribution of hydrogen when hydrogen is released from the FCV [Fuel Cell Vehicle]."

Experimental Study on Hydrogen Leakage and Emission of Fuel Cell Vehicles in Confined Spaces


I think most railway tunnels in the UK tend to have ventilation shafts unless they are very short.
 
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