• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Hydrogen powered trains ?

Status
Not open for further replies.

MarlowDonkey

Member
Joined
4 Apr 2013
Messages
1,094
Here's a press release by a new Government Minister.

http://www.cityam.com/280397/transport-minister-jo-johnson-calls-diesel-only-trains

Transport minister Jo Johnson calls for diesel-only trains to be ditched by 2040 and fast rollout of hydrogen train trials
rush-hour-at-kings-cross-train-station-458558342-5a80da40b9f6b.jpg

The industry has been set a six month challenge to offer up ideas
Transport minister Jo Johnson will today call for diesel-only trains to be taken off Britain's railways by 2040, as the government seeks to tap the use of alternatives such as hydrogen.

As battery technologies improve, the government expects to see the diesel engines in bi-modes replaced with batteries powering the train between the electrified sections of the network.

Johnson wants hydrogen train trials on the UK railway "as soon as possible", as it offers "an affordable - and potentially much cleaner - alternative to diesel".

In his first major speech as rail minister, Johnson will announce today at the British Museum:

I would like to see us take all diesel-only trains off the track by 2040. If that seems like an ambitious goal, it should be and I make no apology for that. After all we’re committed to ending the sales of petrol and diesel cars by 2040. If we can achieve that, then why can’t the railway aspire to a similar objective?

The government is concerned that increased travel has resulted in greater carbon emissions, and Johnson will say it is up to all areas of the transport industry to help bring about change.

He is expected to say: "This government is now injecting record levels of investment in the railway to help it grow further. But alongside increased funding, the industry also needs to modernise. Compared with other transport sectors, progress has been palpably slow."

So as well as calling for change, Johnson will set the industry a six month time limit to pitch ideas for delivering a low carbon railway.

The government plans to provide support for developing the skills and technology needed, but Johnson will add: "Today, I am calling on the railway to provide a vision for how it will decarbonise. And I expect the industry to report back by the autumn."

The Railway Industry Association said it welcomed the announcement as a key step in helping the rail industry to be "one of the most environmentally friendly modes of travel".

"Currently 29 per cent of the fleet on the UK's rail network is diesel," said David Clarke, the RIA's technical director. "To replace these we will need to install overhead power lines for electrification or use on-board energy storage from technology such as batteries or hydrogen fuel cells - or a combination of both. This is therefore a big challenge for the industry but one which I think it can and will look forward to meeting."

Some points.

He really should talk to his boss who has cancelled or postponed electrification schemes on the premise that bi-modes (with diesel power) will suffice.

The deadline for cars was the sale of new ones, not the banning of existing ones. In any event would the ban apply to hybrids?

Are hydrogen powered trains remotely feasible? Battery powered perhaps though, particularly on all stations Branch lines if just the stations were electrified.
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

xotGD

Established Member
Joined
4 Feb 2017
Messages
6,063
Hydrogen fuel cells would be a viable source of power for a train. Energy density of hydrogen is an issue, requiring either very high pressure gas-phase storage tanks or cryogenic liquid storage.

The hydrogen could be produced either by electrolysis using renewable electricity or by steam-methane reforming of natural gas with carbon capture and storage of the by-product CO2 to make it a 'green' fuel source.
 

bangor-toad

Member
Joined
20 Feb 2009
Messages
598
Are hydrogen powered trains remotely feasible? Battery powered perhaps though, particularly on all stations Branch lines if just the stations were electrified.

Hi there,
Simple answer: Yes.
Alstom already have a hydrogen powered unit, the iLINT.

20170314---_iLint---800x320.jpg


I was fortunate enought to get a close look at one a little while ago at a work event and from a passenger perspective you wouldn't notice what the power source was.
There is already an order for 14 units in Germany for actual use rather than for research or testing purposes.

With the UK Government pumping what I work out to be about £1/2billion at rail R&D between 2017 & 2020 I see no reason why hydrogen powered units can't be used on branch lines across the UK.
Cheers,
Mr Toad
 

CdBrux

Member
Joined
4 Mar 2014
Messages
768
Location
Munich
He really should talk to his boss who has cancelled or postponed electrification schemes on the premise that bi-modes (with diesel power) will suffice.
.

Not sure that his boss specified the likely source of power for the bi-modes when not running off overhead lines, or at least he has said other technologies than diesel should be possible very soon
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
16,632
Our extremely limited internal volume is going to be a major issue in using hydrogen powered rolling stock.
Not to mention the rather onerous requirements for storage of hydrogen track-side and it's transfer to the vehicles.
 

Mikey C

Established Member
Joined
11 Feb 2013
Messages
6,830
Would this be a ban on ordering diesel trains or operating them by 2040? If DMUs or diesel bimodes can't be used after 2040 years, then a lot of trains with only 20 years of use will be banned, and it's not as if existing units can be converted to run on hydrogen as surely the technology is completely different?
 

Dr Hoo

Established Member
Joined
10 Nov 2015
Messages
3,910
Location
Hope Valley
Not sure that his boss specified the likely source of power for the bi-modes when not running off overhead lines, or at least he has said other technologies than diesel should be possible very soon
I had heard that the Zillertal Bahn (a 32km narrow-gauge line in Austria) has recently decided to ditch electrification plans and switch from diesel to hydrogen instead.
Hopefully a forum member with better overseas knowledge and IT skills can flesh this out a bit.
 

CdBrux

Member
Joined
4 Mar 2014
Messages
768
Location
Munich
I had heard that the Zillertal Bahn (a 32km narrow-gauge line in Austria) has recently decided to ditch electrification plans and switch from diesel to hydrogen instead.
Hopefully a forum member with better overseas knowledge and IT skills can flesh this out a bit.

I will be going to ski in Zillertal for a day in a couple of weeks, but not sure that helps!!

Would this be a ban on ordering diesel trains or operating them by 2040? If DMUs or diesel bimodes can't be used after 2040 years, then a lot of trains with only 20 years of use will be banned, and it's not as if existing units can be converted to run on hydrogen as surely the technology is completely different?

I suspect that's a level of detail too much to expect! Maybe if battery technology continues to evolve as fast as the last few years it could be an option for the new bimodes to replace diesel
 

Llanigraham

Established Member
Joined
23 Mar 2013
Messages
6,073
Location
Powys
Our extremely limited internal volume is going to be a major issue in using hydrogen powered rolling stock.
Not to mention the rather onerous requirements for storage of hydrogen track-side and it's transfer to the vehicles.

I fail to see why this should be a problem on something as large as a train, when there are already (development) cars on the road using hydrogen fuel cells.
 

bangor-toad

Member
Joined
20 Feb 2009
Messages
598
Our extremely limited internal volume is going to be a major issue in using hydrogen powered rolling stock.
Not to mention the rather onerous requirements for storage of hydrogen track-side and it's transfer to the vehicles.

At the moment it's possible to get an energy generation density from hydrogen fuel cells of better than 3Kw per litre. So, a 100kW fuel cell will take up about 33 litres. 2 of those will take up the size of a large rucksack and provide up to 200 kW, or over 260hp.
A rough rule of thumb is a basic MU needs power of 250hp per carriage so allowing for a bit of engineering redunancy, you're probably looking at a fuel cell volume that's a bit bigger but broadly similar to a convential deisel engine. Of course, the fuel cell just outputs electrical power so there'd be no need for alternators and such. Just hook it up to the traction motors through some suitable control method and you're good to go...

Whilst the robustness is going to be an issue, I can't see that providing a decent power to weight and power to space ratio is going to be a problem. In fact, I could see a bi-mode electric and hydrofgen fuel cell power unit being quite attractive.

Hydrogen storage isn't quite as straightforward as pouring diesel into a tank admittedly.
But new technologies are coming in and there are high capacity technolgies out there and being developed that can help solve this challenge. Maybe such as:
http://www.moftechnologies.com/applications/gas-storage/
I think the iLINT has the hydrogen clyinders on the roof. Whilst the UK loading gauge would make this a bit harder, I don't see it as an impossible issue - one section of a carriage could have a slightly lowered roof as some do already for the pantograph recess.

Will hydrogen powered trains work out? I don't know but I think the probabilites are higher than many may think...
Cheers,
Mr Toad
 

swaldman

Member
Joined
19 Jan 2013
Messages
372
Seems to me that hydrogen fuel cell power offers a low-pollution alternative to diesel, but keeps all the other disadvantages of self-powered trains (weight, need to refuel, etc), and will probably be less efficient and have shorter range. So, pros and cons compared to diesel, but still not as good (on lines with enough traffic to justify) as electrifying.
 

adamedwards

Member
Joined
4 Apr 2016
Messages
796
What happens if a hydrogen powered train catches fire in a tunnel? Given hydrogen is very inflammable.
 

theageofthetra

On Moderation
Joined
27 May 2012
Messages
3,504
I had heard that the Zillertal Bahn (a 32km narrow-gauge line in Austria) has recently decided to ditch electrification plans and switch from diesel to hydrogen instead.
Hopefully a forum member with better overseas knowledge and IT skills can flesh this out a bit.
Hope it doesn't affect its steam operation
 

Mathew S

Established Member
Joined
7 Aug 2017
Messages
2,167
What happens if a hydrogen powered train catches fire in a tunnel? Given hydrogen is very inflammable.
Potentially, boom. Big boom. Very big boom.
That said, there are obviously ways to mitigate against that using the same tech as has gone into hydrogen powered cars so I can't see it being an insurmountable issue.
 

daikilo

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2010
Messages
1,622
What happens if a hydrogen powered train catches fire in a tunnel? Given hydrogen is very inflammable.

The big issue will be whether the storage tanks can or cannot withstand the pressue build-up (if any). If they need a form of release valve to the air then, in that scenario, the fire could become somewhat engulfing. I don't know if and how Alstom addresses the potential issue.
 

Flying Phil

Established Member
Joined
18 Apr 2016
Messages
1,924
There are two recent threads in the "Traction and Rolling stock" section, which have more detail about rail Hydrogen power in the future - possibly...
 

CdBrux

Member
Joined
4 Mar 2014
Messages
768
Location
Munich
The transcript of the speech is now on the DfT webpage:

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/lets-raise-our-ambitions-for-a-cleaner-greener-railway

I picked out what I thought was the most relevant section

But other innovations have to be on a much bigger scale.

And that’s why I am today announcing a new ambition.

I would like to see us take all diesel-only trains off the track by 2040.

If that seems like an ambitious goal - it should be and I make no apology for that.

After all, we’re committed to ending sales of petrol and diesel cars by 2040.

If we can achieve that, then why can’t the railway aspire to a similar objective?

Rail may be less carbon intensive than road transport.

That’s why modal shift’s so important.

Getting freight and passenger vehicles off the roads onto greener forms of transport.

But that does not absolve the rail industry from cleaning up its own act.

You may have seen stories recently about transport becoming the most polluting sector of our economy.

And the fact that rail emissions have actually increased in absolute terms.

Up 33% since 1990.

This cannot go on.

Now – we are making progress on modernising rolling stock.

For example, the much derided Pacers are going.

Along with other long-standing members of the fleet like Intercity 125s….

Old diesels being replaced by much cleaner trains featuring low carbon and NOx technology.

But we need to go further…

By decarbonising rail, we’ll reduce pollutants and improve air quality, particularly in our semi-enclosed stations.

We will tackle this with the urgency it deserves by setting tough new environmental performance goals in each rail franchise which the train operators will have to meet.

Total electrification of our tracks is unlikely to be the only or most cost-effective way to secure these vital environmental benefits.

New bi-modes trains are a great bridging technology to other low emission futures.

Bi-mode trains fitted with modern diesels – which we started introducing last autumn on the Great Western line and on the East Coast Main Line in 2018 – are less polluting than the trains they replaced.

And as battery technologies improve we expect to see the diesel engines in bi-modes replaced altogether.

With batteries powering the train between the electrified sections of the network.

Or maybe in the future we could see those batteries and diesel engines replaced with hydrogen units?

Alternative-fuel trains powered entirely by hydrogen are a prize on the horizon.

I’d like to see hydrogen train trials on the UK railway as soon as possible.

Hydrogen offers an affordable – and potentially much cleaner – alternative to diesel.

And the technology has developed fast in recent years.

To the extent that Alstom is now testing a train which only emits steam and condensed water - yet is capable of 140 km per hour and a range of up to 800 kilometres.

Which matches the performance of regular regional trains.

Rolls Royce is also looking at this technology

So the next generation of trains is just around the corner.

To speed our journey towards a zero-carbon railway, the government is investing record amounts in public R&D to improve our knowledge base.

Through the environmental performance goals we are setting in each rail franchise, we will hold the train operators to account for progress.

These include reducing energy consumption of trains, depots and many stations.

We have tasked Arriva – the operator of the Northern franchise – to deliver an electric/battery hybrid on the Windermere branch from 2021.

But the drive to decarbonise must come from all sectors of the industry.

So today I am calling on the railway to provide a vision for how it will decarbonise.

And I expect the industry to report back by the autumn.

I want to see a clear, long term strategy with consistent objectives and incentives.

I want to see options like lighter rolling stock and alternative sources of power considered and analysed.

I want barriers to innovation removed, so ideas can be brought to market more rapidly.

And I want to see the railway industry show a lead on this crucial issue.

With train operators, Network Rail, and the companies that supply them - all working together as one team.
 

daikilo

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2010
Messages
1,622
'Taking all diesel trains off the tracks by 2040' will certainly have an impact on the financing cost of such trains! Do the IEP builders know that the plan is to replace the diesel power-packs with batteries? And what about locomotives?
 

6Gman

Established Member
Joined
1 May 2012
Messages
8,382
Junior Government Minister makes speech trying to claim greenness and (perhaps) distract from some other more immediate political issues ...

Nothing to see.

Move along.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,555
Location
Mold, Clwyd

L&Y Robert

Member
Joined
22 Apr 2012
Messages
585
Location
Banbury 3m South
So you have a vessel containing hydrogen gas under pressure, what do you do with it to make a train go? Is it just a substitute fuel for an internal combustion engine? We had that in the war-time when some taxi-cabs had big bags of coal gas on the roof. Yes, really! Coal gas is mostly hydrogen.
 

Llanigraham

Established Member
Joined
23 Mar 2013
Messages
6,073
Location
Powys
So you have a vessel containing hydrogen gas under pressure, what do you do with it to make a train go? Is it just a substitute fuel for an internal combustion engine? We had that in the war-time when some taxi-cabs had big bags of coal gas on the roof. Yes, really! Coal gas is mostly hydrogen.
It powers a fuel cell that produces electricity.

One of the cars under development (locally) at present: https://www.riversimple.com/
 

dviner

Member
Joined
7 Oct 2010
Messages
246
So you have a vessel containing hydrogen gas under pressure, what do you do with it to make a train go? Is it just a substitute fuel for an internal combustion engine? We had that in the war-time when some taxi-cabs had big bags of coal gas on the roof. Yes, really! Coal gas is mostly hydrogen.

Basically, you squirt hydrogen gas into a special box (called a fuel cell) and electricity comes out. It's not supposed to catch fire.

OK, it's quite a lot more complicated than that, but it does - sort of - cover the concept.
 

The Ham

Established Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
10,282
Right, so since 1990 the amount of carbon from railways had gone up by 33% but passenger numbers have gone up by over 100% in that same timeframe.

Also, we're yet to see the full benefits from the 80x's and so the carbon impact is likely to fall from where we're at currently.

That's not so say that we shouldn't be working towards getting rid of more diesel only trains (so 80x's will still be allowed), it's just that the politicians are using numbers which are a bit miss leading (which is no surprise).
 

WatcherZero

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2010
Messages
10,272
Your essentially combining Hydrogen and Oxygen to produce electricity with the byproduct being H20, Water except rather than burning the hydrogen your exchanging the atoms through a membrane.

508px-Solid_oxide_fuel_cell_protonic.svg.png
 

mike57

Established Member
Joined
13 Mar 2015
Messages
1,633
Location
East coast of Yorkshire
I think the issue will be the transport and storage before it gets to the train. Hydrogen is highly flammable and has one of the lowest ignition energies at 0.02mJ. This means that an almost invisible spark will ignite a mixture of Hydrogen in air (i.e. a leak). Read this for some more background https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_safety.

Taken as proportion of total diesel fuel consumption in the UK what proportion do rail based diesel engines use, I suspect it is small so is it really worth setting a whole new infrastructure up to support hydrogen powered trains, I suspect the money would be much used in other ways. Its one thing to have a few 'research' trains quite another to change the whole infrastructure over.
 

DimTim

Member
Joined
11 Aug 2013
Messages
183
So far there’s only been mention of passenger - most freight is diesel!

‘I would like to see all diesel only trains off the tracks by 2040.’

Whilst no new freight locos are required at present 20 year lifespan is not an encouraging prospect for a return!
 
Last edited:

xotGD

Established Member
Joined
4 Feb 2017
Messages
6,063
I attended a presentation on the use of hydrogen as a vehicle fuel today. For road applications, hydrogen is stored at 350 or 700 bar pressure - the storage containers are bullet proof and have internal emergency shut-off valves that close if the outlet pipe is severed. It was noted that in an accident, the safest place to be would be inside the hydrogen tank!
 

Mathew S

Established Member
Joined
7 Aug 2017
Messages
2,167
It was noted that in an accident, the safest place to be would be inside the hydrogen tank!
Well, other than the whole 'death by asphyxiation' thing :)
In all seriousness though, thanks, that's really interesting.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top