I’m 19 and going to court

[185]

Point of interest, Google Maps shows a photo of the Scheidt & Bachmann TVM - with banknote & coin slots, taken 3 weeks ago.

 

[Nova1]

Point of interest, Google Maps shows a photo of the Scheidt & Bachmann TVM - with banknote & coin slots, taken 3 weeks ago.

It is entirely possible the machine is broken though. the TVM at my local station fairly regularly refuses to take notes or coins

 

[AlterEgo]

It is entirely possible the machine is broken though. the TVM at my local station fairly regularly refuses to take notes or coins

We are not going to know whether the machine was broken on the day of travel either way, because the OP did not attempt to pay their fare before boarding and did not visit the machine, and then admitted to doing so under caution. (This is why it is often unwise to speak to the police or PACE-trained individuals under caution without a solicitor, but that is for another time)

They do not have a good defence. Imagine a small ticket office is normally open between 9am and 5pm, but only has one regular member of staff. A passenger goes on Week 1, sees the ticket office open, and purchases a ticket. On Week 2, the ticket office is closed and has a sign on the ticket window saying "CLOSED DUE TO SICKNESS - PLEASE BUY ON TRAIN". The ticket office remains closed for another week and the passenger buys on board, or at destination, successfully, a few times.

In the fourth week, the passenger simply doesn't bother going to the ticket office any more because they are late for their train. The ticket office has now reopened and is offering the full range of tickets. What defence do they have against a Bylaw 18 charge? None, as far as I can see. Saying "oh the last few times I went past it was closed" or "the last few times I have tried to use cash at the machine, there was a notice saying it couldn't accept cash" is...not something I would suggest to put to a magistrate as a defence.

 

[najaB]

We are not going to know whether the machine was broken on the day of travel either way, because the OP did not attempt to pay their fare and did not visit the machine.

They do not have a good defence.

I agree. It is doing the OP a disservice to suggest otherwise.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Thank you for replying. Yes that’s the problem I don’t have any way of proving that the ticket machine wouldn’t take cash. Everyone else got post saying to pay £60 fine but I was the only one who didn’t get that option I feel as though it is very unfair

I'm not sure what you mean by saying the others were asked to pay a £60 fine. If they haven't been to court, they can't have been fined. A fine is imposed by a court - no private company can "fine" you. Presumably you mean that the others were asked to pay money as a settlement to make up for not having a ticket and, thereby, to avoid going to court and risking a fine. If you didn't get that letter does it mean that one wasn't sent? Are you sure? Maybe it went astray? (Even if you were the only one - for some reason - that they wanted to take to court, it would be quite normal for them to send you some sort of correspondence first; if you had nothing at all before the one saying you were charged with an offence, that seems strange. Have you had any trouble receiving post lately?) Did your court letter come much later than the "£60 settlement payment" letters the others got? If so, that's a sign that you missed out on that option, and they went to court because they thought you'd ignored the "£60-to-forget-it" option. Do you know any reason why they'd treat you differently?

 

[tony6499]

Normally if they have a block at Worthing , they have inspectors at East and West Worthing too checking everyone boarding there has tickets. I wonder if this may have been a factor in the straight to prosecution process ?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Normally if they have a block at Worthing , they have inspectors at East and West Worthing too checking everyone boarding there has tickets. I wonder if this may have been a factor in the straight to prosecution process ?

We may never hear the full story. But the OP didn't mention anything about seeing inspectors when they boarded the train at East Worthing

 

[P Binnersley]

The Ticket machine at East Worthing is on the Brighton (eastbound) platform. The westbound (Worthing) platform has a permit to travel machine. Looking at some photos this is probably the coins only type.

From the westbound platform entrance it is ~120m each way over the bridge to the ticket machine. I suspect it was the Permit to travel machine that may not have been working.

 

[AlterEgo]

We may never hear the full story. But the OP didn't mention anything about seeing inspectors when they boarded the train at East Worthing

The OP does not mention if there was a dispute between the group and the inspectors as to where they'd boarded, but has been deliberately vague when pressed why the inspectors "weren't having it".

The fare requested in the SJPN however is the one from East Worthing, so presumably the railway don't have any evidence they boarded at another station.

 

[WesternLancer]

I note the OP has not been back to thread for c24 hours, and not really been drawn on the advice given in various posts, nor some of the questions asked of them. Perhaps they hoped the forum would be able to tell them best ways to 'get off' the charge they are facing but this has not really been possible. Of course the OP may return with their course of action, if so no doubt people will happily offer views.

 

[Tallguy]

I used to live in Worthing before I moved to Risborough. I know these stations well. East Worthing westbound platform has an old fashioned coin based PTT machine that the passengers could have used if they had some coins which may have provided some mitigation but the CCTV will show if they tried to use the TVM on the other platform which it appears they didn’t. Without some better mitigation the OP is going to struggle here in my opinion. Revenue blocks at Worthing central are nothing new as many of the youth in the area make a local sport out of fare dodging. Never saw RPI’s at West or East though.

 

[philthetube]

If I were the prosecution I would just wheel out the fact that the OP stated under caution that they were in a rush and didn't go near it to try it.

If I were the defence would advise my client to try and obtain photos of the non functioning ticket machine, unless it has been fixed

 

[Haywain]

If I were the defence would advise my client to try and obtain photos of the non functioning ticket machine, unless it has been fixed

They'll need to have the ability to travel back in time to show it wasn't working on the day they chose not to try and use it.

 

[najaB]

If I were the defence would advise my client to try and obtain photos of the non functioning ticket machine, unless it has been fixed

Which would prove nothing useful.

 

[jon0844]

It is entirely possible the machine is broken though. the TVM at my local station fairly regularly refuses to take notes or coins

These machines report their status, unless the Internet connection goes down (and I'm not sure if that is detected from a lack of communication after a set period of time?), so I am sure the TOC will know if it was taking cash at the time.

 

[WesternLancer]

These machines report their status, unless the Internet connection goes down (and I'm not sure if that is detected from a lack of communication after a set period of time?), so I am sure the TOC will know if it was taking cash at the time.

Whilst I am sure if the machines are not taking cash at all the generates a report of the sort you mention. I would be less certain(but interested to hear from someone who knows) if they behave intermittently with certain notes or coins etc.

In this case the OP did not even try the machine because it is 'usually not taking cash' in their experience.

Up thread I think there is a suggestion it was not in fact a TVM on the platform described but a 'permit to travel' machine. Are those also connected via internet reporting, or are they still the old NSE era permit machines that pre date the internet?

"East Worthing westbound platform has an old fashioned coin based PTT machine that the passengers could have used if they had some coins which may have provided some mitigation"

So IIRC from thread content and this post I assume the OP meant the permit to travel machine is not / does not usually work.

 

[AlterEgo]

Whilst I am sure if the machines are not taking cash at all the generates a report of the sort you mention. I would be less certain(but interested to hear from someone who knows) if they behave intermittently with certain notes or coins etc.

In this case the OP did not even try the machine because it is 'usually not taking cash' in their experience.

Up thread I think there is a suggestion it was not in fact a TVM on the platform described but a 'permit to travel' machine. Are those also connected via internet reporting, or are they still the old NSE era permit machines that pre date the internet?

East Worthing westbound platform has an old fashioned coin based PTT machine that the passengers could have used if they had some coins which may have provided some mitigation

There is a TVM on the platform at East Worthing, just one the OP could not be bothered to attempt to purchase a ticket from.

 

[WesternLancer]

There is a TVM on the platform at East Worthing, just one the OP could not be bothered to attempt to purchase a ticket from.

Indeed, tho "could not be bothered" is not the explanation the OP uses , but says they did not have a card to use that TVM, only cash.

I'm not convinced the OP is likely to return to the thread to offer further clarifications

 

[jon0844]

Whilst I am sure if the machines are not taking cash at all the generates a report of the sort you mention. I would be less certain(but interested to hear from someone who knows) if they behave intermittently with certain notes or coins etc.

That is true, although I am sure a machine could report failed cash payments (i.e. a number of customers selecting cash, but no transactions being completed). I don't know the level of detail, and busier stations are probably easier to detect this sort of thing (not least people complaining on Twitter or to staff).

I am certain that TVM availability is a metric that's part of the management contract, so not taking cash should be something that gets fixed promptly. However, if the machine is open to the elements or subject to abuse/vandalism, that could make a difference.

Suffice to say, you'd need to go and check the machine yourself - not just assume it to be broken.

 

[AlterEgo]

Indeed, tho "could not be bothered" is not the explanation the OP uses , but says they did not have a card to use that TVM, only cash.

I'm not convinced the OP is likely to return to the thread to offer further clarifications

I rather suspect we were not told the whole story anyway, rendering much of the discussion here academic and any advice given to them fairly useless.

 

[jon0844]

I rather suspect we were not told the whole story anyway, rendering much of the discussion here academic and any advice given to them fairly useless.

True, while cash is still favoured by a lot of people - I am sure the majority of people, especially younger people, have at least a debit card in their possession (either physical, or 'loaded' on their phone/watch). If paying by cash to get a train ticket is a problem, wait until you visit any number of establishments that are quite clearly card only.

 

[Hadders]

True, while cash is still favoured by a lot of people - I am sure the majority of people, especially younger people, have at least a debit card in their possession (either physical, or 'loaded' on their phone/watch). If paying by cash to get a train ticket is a problem, wait until you visit any number of establishments that are quite clearly card only.

That's a good point, there are a number of businesses near me that say they are card only. On th other hand my local chippie is cash only!

The difference is the railway states that cash is accepted as a method pf payment, therefore they cannot suddenly decide they aren't going to accept it in certain situations.

 

[WesternLancer]

True, while cash is still favoured by a lot of people - I am sure the majority of people, especially younger people, have at least a debit card in their possession (either physical, or 'loaded' on their phone/watch). If paying by cash to get a train ticket is a problem, wait until you visit any number of establishments that are quite clearly card only.

Yes, tho I do know a fair number of young people (and I'd have done the same back in the day) who might go places like into the local town with no intention to pay for anything at all - just to 'hang out' - not suggesting they would be shoplifting instead I mean.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The difference is the railway states that cash is accepted as a method pf payment, therefore they cannot suddenly decide they aren't going to accept it in certain situations.

I still suspect we aren't too far off a policy change on that so cash is accepted only at staffed booking offices or somesuch, but we shall see.

 

[Haywain]

I still suspect we aren't too far off a policy change on that so cash is accepted only at staffed booking offices or somesuch, but we shall see.

I disagree - I think the DfT are a long way from seeing something like that as being acceptable.

 

[najaB]

I disagree - I think the DfT are a long way from seeing something lie that as being acceptable.

Maybe as official policy, but with some TOCs (e.g. Northern) it's already largely the reality on the ground.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe as official policy, but with some TOCs (e.g. Northern) it's already largely the reality on the ground.

It's not, because you can get a Promise to Pay. I was thinking more of a scenario where there are only card TVMs and thus if you don't have a card you can't legally travel from that station unless you have bought in advance from a staffed booking office.

 

[Haywain]

Maybe as official policy, but with some TOCs (e.g. Northern) it's already largely the reality on the ground.

You think Northern are not accepting cash?

 

[najaB]

You think Northern are not accepting cash?

No. I think they are only accepting cash at limited locations with card-only machines issuing promise to pay notices elsewhere.

It's not, because you can get a Promise to Pay. I was thinking more of a scenario where there are only card TVMs and thus if you don't have a card you can't legally travel from that station unless you have bought in advance from a staffed booking office.

Oh, if that's what you mean then no. That is a *long* way away from happening.