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Idiotically Provided False Details

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Anonymous525

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Joined
13 Jul 2021
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3
Location
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Hello all,

This is my first post in this forum - I come here seeking some well informed advice for a monumental co*k-up on my behalf. I boarded a train on Monday having paid for a ticket with what I thought was a valid railcard. Blissfully unaware of the fact it had expired, I happily showed the conductor my e-ticket and in-app railcard upon his request. I was genuinely taken aback when he told me my railcard had expired and that I'd be required to pay the difference of £91 on the spot. I fully understand that ignorance does not equate to innocence, but I had not looked at my railcard app in well over a year, nor had I been asked to show it by any conductor who checked my ticket during that time.

Now, this is where the hole digging begins. Having had the figure of £91 thrown at me by the inspector (the ticket only cost £36.30 without a railcard), I did the classic, foolish thing of panicking, telling him I couldn't pay up-front, and then proceeding to give him a false name, address, DOB and phone number. To rub salt into my already gaping wounds, he then proceeded to look at my railcard again (I didn't think he'd do this - not sure why) where he saw my real name (face-in-palm)! Having immediately realised the error of my ways, I asked if I could just pay the £91 and be done with it, after which the conductor, quite rightly, told me that I'd missed that opportunity. He also told me that the railway company will now investigate every train journey I've made since my railcard expired.

I am an idiot. I do not deserve any sympathy here. At all. I am willing to accept any consequences that come my way. However, I would really appreciate some advice on how best I now navigate this stressful, anxiety-inducing situation. While I don't wish to wriggle my way out of any punishment, I would naturally like to know if there are any approaches I can take to provide some kind of damage limitation. I am aware of the severity of what I have done by providing false details - it was a huge error of judgement on my behalf and something I will obviously never do again.

Part of me is tempted to write an email to the prosecutions team at the railway company giving them my proper address so at least I know I'll be receiving any post that is inevitably coming my way. Another part of me is tempted to just write to them coming clean about the whole thing, owning up to my idiocy and beginning some kind of dialogue in order to resolve this. Or do I wait for the letter after they inevitably find my actual address and just deal with what comes my way then? Needless to say going to court wouldn't be ideal, and I certainly don't want a criminal record (I know, I should have thought about this when I provided incorrect details). I am willing to pay whatever it takes to avoid these two things, so would there be an opportunity to settle this out of court once I've received said post? I'm also worried about this investigation into my historic railway travel. Is this something they actually do?

I have not come here to be scolded - I've been doing that to myself for the past couple of days and anyone who tells me how stupid I've been will only be confirming what I already know. However, any help with the appropriate next steps on how I best resolve this with some kind of damage limitation would be HUGELY appreciated. There probably isn't a black and white answer, but it'd be wonderful to hear from people who have either made the same mistake of who know about this sort of thing.

Thank you in advance,
From an apologetic moron.
 
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RPI

Established Member
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6 Dec 2010
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2,742
Accepting what you've done is the first step, they will more than likely check your booking history against the time that your railcard had expired.

It would be helpful if you could tell us which train operator it was as to further advice on what to expect next.
 

Fawkes Cat

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Joined
8 May 2017
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2,943
OK. You're in a hole, and you've decided to stop digging. That's a pretty good place to start. But first of all, let's look at how deep the hole is - what the worst is that can happen.

And realistically, the worst that can happen is a substantial hit on your bank account. The punishment for what you have done - should the matter go as far as court - will be a fine, plus court costs, plus compensation. Even if the railway and the courts don't manage to see through your false details, I understand that their debt collectors do quite well at tracing people, so in all probability they will find you (and then you will also have to pay the debt collectors' costs on top of everything else). But while none of this is good, you will not go to prison - and in our experience, even if you come up against an employer or similar (maybe a university or an organisation you volunteer for) who has a right to know about any convictions then you won't lose your job, although there's the embarrassment of admitting to a conviction before they find out through another route.

So objectively, things aren't too awful: you won't go to prison, and you face having to pay quite a lot of money and some embarrassment - but life will go on. Yes, you are in a hole - but it could be much deeper, so try not to worry too much

As to whether you need to approach the railway just yet - how good was your fake address? As in, is it a real address where the post will reach you (your parents' address maybe, or that of a friend - just not where you currently live) or was it completely made up? If the post will reach you, then I would suggest waiting for something to come through: when you reply to that, you will need to explain what your real address is. But if the post is unlikely to get to you, then I think you are right in trying to contact them with your true details. Try and give as much detail as possible for them to identify your case (the time and date of the incident, what train you were on, the false details that you gave them) as you will want them to attach your true details to the right case. But at this stage I don't think that you want to enter into dialogue: almost certainly the railway will write to you asking for your side of the story, and that's the time to apologise for not having a valid railcard, and for trying to mislead the railway.
 

RPI

Established Member
Joined
6 Dec 2010
Messages
2,742
OK. You're in a hole, and you've decided to stop digging. That's a pretty good place to start. But first of all, let's look at how deep the hole is - what the worst is that can happen.

And realistically, the worst that can happen is a substantial hit on your bank account. The punishment for what you have done - should the matter go as far as court - will be a fine, plus court costs, plus compensation. Even if the railway and the courts don't manage to see through your false details, I understand that their debt collectors do quite well at tracing people, so in all probability they will find you (and then you will also have to pay the debt collectors' costs on top of everything else). But while none of this is good, you will not go to prison - and in our experience, even if you come up against an employer or similar (maybe a university or an organisation you volunteer for) who has a right to know about any convictions then you won't lose your job, although there's the embarrassment of admitting to a conviction before they find out through another route.

So objectively, things aren't too awful: you won't go to prison, and you face having to pay quite a lot of money and some embarrassment - but life will go on. Yes, you are in a hole - but it could be much deeper, so try not to worry too much

As to whether you need to approach the railway just yet - how good was your fake address? As in, is it a real address where the post will reach you (your parents' address maybe, or that of a friend - just not where you currently live) or was it completely made up? If the post will reach you, then I would suggest waiting for something to come through: when you reply to that, you will need to explain what your real address is. But if the post is unlikely to get to you, then I think you are right in trying to contact them with your true details. Try and give as much detail as possible for them to identify your case (the time and date of the incident, what train you were on, the false details that you gave them) as you will want them to attach your true details to the right case. But at this stage I don't think that you want to enter into dialogue: almost certainly the railway will write to you asking for your side of the story, and that's the time to apologise for not having a valid railcard, and for trying to mislead the railway.
I think from what the OP said, the inspector did eventually gain their correct details when he looked again at the railcard and saw their real name? If not, then its easy to trace the OP's details through the mobile ticket number which will be linked to their account.
 

Hadders

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
27 Apr 2011
Messages
12,980
Hello all,

This is my first post in this forum - I come here seeking some well informed advice for a monumental co*k-up on my behalf. I boarded a train on Monday having paid for a ticket with what I thought was a valid railcard. Blissfully unaware of the fact it had expired, I happily showed the conductor my e-ticket and in-app railcard upon his request. I was genuinely taken aback when he told me my railcard had expired and that I'd be required to pay the difference of £91 on the spot. I fully understand that ignorance does not equate to innocence, but I had not looked at my railcard app in well over a year, nor had I been asked to show it by any conductor who checked my ticket during that time.

Now, this is where the hole digging begins. Having had the figure of £91 thrown at me by the inspector (the ticket only cost £36.30 without a railcard), I did the classic, foolish thing of panicking, telling him I couldn't pay up-front, and then proceeding to give him a false name, address, DOB and phone number. To rub salt into my already gaping wounds, he then proceeded to look at my railcard again (I didn't think he'd do this - not sure why) where he saw my real name (face-in-palm)! Having immediately realised the error of my ways, I asked if I could just pay the £91 and be done with it, after which the conductor, quite rightly, told me that I'd missed that opportunity. He also told me that the railway company will now investigate every train journey I've made since my railcard expired.

I am an idiot. I do not deserve any sympathy here. At all. I am willing to accept any consequences that come my way. However, I would really appreciate some advice on how best I now navigate this stressful, anxiety-inducing situation. While I don't wish to wriggle my way out of any punishment, I would naturally like to know if there are any approaches I can take to provide some kind of damage limitation. I am aware of the severity of what I have done by providing false details - it was a huge error of judgement on my behalf and something I will obviously never do again.

Part of me is tempted to write an email to the prosecutions team at the railway company giving them my proper address so at least I know I'll be receiving any post that is inevitably coming my way. Another part of me is tempted to just write to them coming clean about the whole thing, owning up to my idiocy and beginning some kind of dialogue in order to resolve this. Or do I wait for the letter after they inevitably find my actual address and just deal with what comes my way then? Needless to say going to court wouldn't be ideal, and I certainly don't want a criminal record (I know, I should have thought about this when I provided incorrect details). I am willing to pay whatever it takes to avoid these two things, so would there be an opportunity to settle this out of court once I've received said post? I'm also worried about this investigation into my historic railway travel. Is this something they actually do?

I have not come here to be scolded - I've been doing that to myself for the past couple of days and anyone who tells me how stupid I've been will only be confirming what I already know. However, any help with the appropriate next steps on how I best resolve this with some kind of damage limitation would be HUGELY appreciated. There probably isn't a black and white answer, but it'd be wonderful to hear from people who have either made the same mistake of who know about this sort of thing.

Thank you in advance,
From an apologetic moron.
Welcome to the forum!

I think the key thing here is what name and address does the train company have for you? If it's now your correct address then I would expect it to be reasonable straightforward. If they still have false details then it will be more problematic.

If they have the correct details to write to you then you are likely to receive a letter from the train company (or an investigation company acting on their behalf) which will probably take a few weeks to arrive saying that they have received a report, are considering prosecuting you and asking for your version of events. It is important that you engage with and reply to this letter. You might want to include the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before. Most train companies are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) to people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before.

The problem comes if they send this letter to the false name and address you provided. Is this an address of someone you know in which case you might be able to make arrangements to receive the letter (with some serious explaining involved?) If it isn't then I suggest finding out the address of the train company prosecutions office and writing to them giving as much detail as possible about the incident (date, time, which train etc) saying you gave incorrect details and asking if you can settle the matter in the way suggested above.

There is no guarantee of being offered a settlement, and giving false details is a serious aggravating factor and the train company will be well within their rights to take the matter to the magistrates court.

If you are offered a settlement the amount varies depending on the train company and circumstances but tend to be around a hundred pounds plus the outstanding fare. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one, but the best chance of keeping the matter out of court is to be proactive and not mess them around any further.
 

scrapy

Established Member
Joined
15 Dec 2008
Messages
2,081
Whilst the conductor had your correct name, did they have your correct address in the end? (You are under no obligation to provide your d.o.b. or phone number although it may be an offence to give false details so it's probably worth correcting them as well)

If not it's worth contacting the train operators prosecution department. Details of how to do this may be on their website, or you can contact their customer services to get contact details.

As you presented an e-ticket it's likely the conductor will put details in their report and it may be able to be traced back to you via your account so it's best to be proactive and correct any errors and ensure you don't miss out on being able to tell your side.

It's also worth noting unless the TOC has a different official policy (some do) then you were let off lightly by being offered to pay the difference. Normally the discounted ticket would be invalid and you may be charged the full fare which (dependant on the Railcard) is likely to be three times the £91 you were offered to pay. It is likely that the TOC will pursue that full fare when working out the settlement they feel they are owed plus admin costs, if they offer one.
 

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
17,867
Location
Airedale
It's also worth noting unless the TOC has a different official policy (some do) then you were let off lightly by being offered to pay the difference. Normally the discounted ticket would be invalid and you may be charged the full fare which (dependant on the Railcard) is likely to be three times the £91 you were offered to pay. It is likely that the TOC will pursue that full fare when working out the settlement they feel they are owed plus admin costs, if they offer one.
If the Railcard discounted fare was 36.30, as the OP says, £91 should be the undiscounted walkup fare appropriate time of day. There will be the administrative cost as well, as you say.
 

scrapy

Established Member
Joined
15 Dec 2008
Messages
2,081
If the Railcard discounted fare was 36.30, as the OP says, £91 should be the undiscounted walkup fare appropriate time of day. There will be the administrative cost as well, as you say.
Apologies your right id missed the 36.30 in the original post.
 

Anonymous525

New Member
Joined
13 Jul 2021
Messages
3
Location
UK
Accepting what you've done is the first step, they will more than likely check your booking history against the time that your railcard had expired.

It would be helpful if you could tell us which train operator it was as to further advice on what to expect next.
Thanks for your reply, and apologies for my delay in getting back. The operator is Great Western Railway. I don't suppose you know how they specifically tend to deal with these things?

OK. You're in a hole, and you've decided to stop digging. That's a pretty good place to start. But first of all, let's look at how deep the hole is - what the worst is that can happen.

And realistically, the worst that can happen is a substantial hit on your bank account. The punishment for what you have done - should the matter go as far as court - will be a fine, plus court costs, plus compensation. Even if the railway and the courts don't manage to see through your false details, I understand that their debt collectors do quite well at tracing people, so in all probability they will find you (and then you will also have to pay the debt collectors' costs on top of everything else). But while none of this is good, you will not go to prison - and in our experience, even if you come up against an employer or similar (maybe a university or an organisation you volunteer for) who has a right to know about any convictions then you won't lose your job, although there's the embarrassment of admitting to a conviction before they find out through another route.

So objectively, things aren't too awful: you won't go to prison, and you face having to pay quite a lot of money and some embarrassment - but life will go on. Yes, you are in a hole - but it could be much deeper, so try not to worry too much

As to whether you need to approach the railway just yet - how good was your fake address? As in, is it a real address where the post will reach you (your parents' address maybe, or that of a friend - just not where you currently live) or was it completely made up? If the post will reach you, then I would suggest waiting for something to come through: when you reply to that, you will need to explain what your real address is. But if the post is unlikely to get to you, then I think you are right in trying to contact them with your true details. Try and give as much detail as possible for them to identify your case (the time and date of the incident, what train you were on, the false details that you gave them) as you will want them to attach your true details to the right case. But at this stage I don't think that you want to enter into dialogue: almost certainly the railway will write to you asking for your side of the story, and that's the time to apologise for not having a valid railcard, and for trying to mislead the railway.
Thank you very much for the reassurance. Now a little time has passed since the incident I've been able to put it into a little more perspective. It was a stupid error on my behalf, and I'm willing to accept the inevitable dent this will make on my bank account, but as you say it's not the end of the world as I know it.

My fake address was awful. In fact I'm pretty sure one of them (he asked for two) was the house next door to my actual one! The things you do when adrenaline kicks in... (as you can probably tell, I'm not a seasoned pro when it comes to this sort of thing). As another poster has mentioned, they actually got my real name there and then, so I imagine I will be fairly easy to trace. Would you recommend I still wait and see if they find me, or write to them anyway confirming what my address actually is (but not actually confessing to the crime just yet)?
 
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Anonymous525

New Member
Joined
13 Jul 2021
Messages
3
Location
UK
I think from what the OP said, the inspector did eventually gain their correct details when he looked again at the railcard and saw their real name? If not, then its easy to trace the OP's details through the mobile ticket number which will be linked to their account.
Yes, they did get my real name. I imagine they won't have many issues finding where I actually live seeing as the conductor scanned my railcard?

Welcome to the forum!

I think the key thing here is what name and address does the train company have for you? If it's now your correct address then I would expect it to be reasonable straightforward. If they still have false details then it will be more problematic.

If they have the correct details to write to you then you are likely to receive a letter from the train company (or an investigation company acting on their behalf) which will probably take a few weeks to arrive saying that they have received a report, are considering prosecuting you and asking for your version of events. It is important that you engage with and reply to this letter. You might want to include the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before. Most train companies are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) to people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before.

The problem comes if they send this letter to the false name and address you provided. Is this an address of someone you know in which case you might be able to make arrangements to receive the letter (with some serious explaining involved?) If it isn't then I suggest finding out the address of the train company prosecutions office and writing to them giving as much detail as possible about the incident (date, time, which train etc) saying you gave incorrect details and asking if you can settle the matter in the way suggested above.

There is no guarantee of being offered a settlement, and giving false details is a serious aggravating factor and the train company will be well within their rights to take the matter to the magistrates court.

If you are offered a settlement the amount varies depending on the train company and circumstances but tend to be around a hundred pounds plus the outstanding fare. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one, but the best chance of keeping the matter out of court is to be proactive and not mess them around any further.
Thank you very much!

As I've mentioned to others in my most recent replies, the conductor did actually get my real name by re-scanning my railcard. I assume this means I'll be easily tracible seeing as my railcard is registered to my actual address. Bearing this in mind, would you still recommend I write to them myself, or just wait it out for something to arrive in the post?

May I just add that the help on this forum has been great so far. It's made me feel a lot calmer about the whole situation, so thank you everyone. I still feel like an absolute idiot but at least I can now see what the logical next steps might be. Thank you all!

Whilst the conductor had your correct name, did they have your correct address in the end? (You are under no obligation to provide your d.o.b. or phone number although it may be an offence to give false details so it's probably worth correcting them as well)

If not it's worth contacting the train operators prosecution department. Details of how to do this may be on their website, or you can contact their customer services to get contact details.

As you presented an e-ticket it's likely the conductor will put details in their report and it may be able to be traced back to you via your account so it's best to be proactive and correct any errors and ensure you don't miss out on being able to tell your side.

It's also worth noting unless the TOC has a different official policy (some do) then you were let off lightly by being offered to pay the difference. Normally the discounted ticket would be invalid and you may be charged the full fare which (dependant on the Railcard) is likely to be three times the £91 you were offered to pay. It is likely that the TOC will pursue that full fare when working out the settlement they feel they are owed plus admin costs, if they offer one.

Hi there, thanks for your reply.

No, just my correct name after he scanned by railcard for a second time. Would this mean I'm easily traceable, or are they still unlikely to be able to find my actual address? One of the addresses I provided is actually next door to the real address (please don't laugh). As for the DOB and phone number - why did he ask for it if I'm under no obligation to provide it?

Now a week has passed, I'm still caught in two minds about whether to contact them and come clean, contact them simply just to clarify my address, or just wait it out for something to arrive. In your informed opinion, would there be any potential benefits of proactively reaching out to come clean and try to initiate the settlement process? Are they less likely to throw the book if I come to them? And could it perhaps stop them from investigating my previous bookings with my expired railcard?

Thanks once again for your advice, it really is appreciated. I'm just really keen to get this over and done with, move on and learn from the whole thing!
 
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RPI

Established Member
Joined
6 Dec 2010
Messages
2,742
Yes they'll be able to trace you through the railcard by sending a data release request to Rail Delivery Group. Its now in your interest to get hold of the train operator in my opinion because if they have the right name and an address provided by you then they will write to you at that address, when you don't respond to the letter they will more than likely then send a court summons, again, you won't be able to reply so it will go to court in your absence meanwhile you'll know none of this until such time as (if you're convicted) you're being chased by the courts for fines.
 

507020

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Joined
23 May 2021
Messages
1,835
Location
Southport
Yes they'll be able to trace you through the railcard by sending a data release request to Rail Delivery Group. Its now in your interest to get hold of the train operator in my opinion because if they have the right name and an address provided by you then they will write to you at that address, when you don't respond to the letter they will more than likely then send a court summons, again, you won't be able to reply so it will go to court in your absence meanwhile you'll know none of this until such time as (if you're convicted) you're being chased by the courts for fines.
What I don’t understand is, if the conductor hadn’t seen a real railcard with a correct name, the person they would be chasing would be someone who doesn’t actually exist, perhaps even at an address that doesn’t exist. If this is the case, how can any court summons, convictions or fines ever reach a real person. For an imaginary person who has never existed to be tried in their absence seems a colossal waste of public money, especially when the fact that they have never been both guarantees they will be absent on all occasions. If the passenger was from a different part of the country, or a different country altogether and never travelled in the same area or with the same train company again, how would they go about tracing them. Even CCTV images would be useless if they weren’t local and were never seen again. How do courts ensure the identity they are chasing is of a real person?
 

Haywain

Veteran Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
14,877
How do courts ensure the identity they are chasing is of a real person?
They don’t, they try people in their absence. It happens pretty much every day of the week in magistrates courts all over the country.
 

WesternLancer

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Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
6,996
They don’t, they try people in their absence. It happens pretty much every day of the week in magistrates courts all over the country.
I think Q here from @507020 is not people being tried in their absence, it's imaginary/made up (non existent) people being tried in absence isn't it. Perhaps that is a price we pay as a society that does not require compulsory ID cards to be carried.
 
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