If you buy a valid ticket for your journey, are you guaranteed to have it accepted?

[sheff1]

About 3 years ago my valid ticket was rejected by the gate at Darlington and to compound matters the message displayed said "Ticket not valid at this location" - a clear suggestion that I was engaging in criminal activty (attempting to travel without a valid ticket). Despite complaining about it, a year later exactly the same thing happened again.

Things might have changed by now but, as nobody had bothered to fix things after a year, I wouldn't bank on it.

 

[Haywain]

Things might have changed by now but, as nobody had bothered to fix things after a year, I wouldn't bank on it.

What was the ticket?

 

[miami]

If, by gateline operators, you mean the folks who work at barriers that simply isn’t true.

People specifying, purchasing, installing, configuring and manning the barriers.

 

[Wallsendmag]

About 3 years ago my valid ticket was rejected by the gate at Darlington and to compound matters the message displayed said "Ticket not valid at this location" - a clear suggestion that I was engaging in criminal activty (attempting to travel without a valid ticket). Despite complaining about it, a year later exactly the same thing happened again.

Things might have changed by now but, as nobody had bothered to fix things after a year, I wouldn't bank on it.

We had a specfic problem at Darlington that took forever to get to the bottom of, a very simple fix once we knew what it was. If you can let us know what the ticket was we can look into it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was distinctly unimpressed to find that my West Midlands Day Ranger ticket (a favourite of mine when such travel was permitted) wouldn't work at Birmingham New Street.

Which is slightly bizarre, because almost[1] anything that could even vaguely possibly be valid via there operates the barriers at New St.

[1] I actually bought, online (and collected from a TVM), a single from Wick to Altnabreac, to see if that would. It didn't, but anything else I've ever put in the gate at New St has done.

 

[eoff]

I used to get very frustrated at Edinburgh Waverley as eventually I worked out that one ticket gate never accepted my travel pass. Without exception the gate staff showed absolutely no interest in resolving this when I mentioned it. I noticed other people trying to use this gate and either giving up or being let through.

 

[Randomer]

I'd like to echo what others have said here about clearly valid tickets not being accepted by rail staff at barriers and on trains. I have experienced both (both related to Off-Peak validity) but have had enough confidence to politely argue my point and be able to continue my journey. Far too little training for some staff on the limitations of what ticket gates can be programmed for; I've heard "the barrier says it isn't valid" far too many times both personally and overheard.

Likewise a refusal on a TPE service, where the guard couldn't process an excess fare, refused to do so and then wanted to issue a TIR. Eventually after quoting the cost of the excess and a 10 minute polite argument (a change of route on the return portion of a LDS-GLQ from via Appleby to Any Permitted) it was done but after being told I intended to evade the fare by not obtaining an excess before hand when there isn't a requirement to do so. This should be a simple easy to do matter for anyone with training on selling tickets.

In both of the above cases would a person with less knowledge and confidence about rail ticketing been denied travel when they held a valid ticket or ended up paying more for a new ticket. Very possibly and both examples are simple ticketing matters.

Separately I've had grief using some of the slightly more obscure tickets I'm sure some of the forum members have used which are at first glance not valid for journeys with unusual routings. If staff aren't sure about the validity of a ticket and can't establish it easily there is a clear procedure in place; issue a TIR and let somebody more knowledgeable check the validity in slower time. Instead it seems far too many staff are happy to threaten prosecution and insist on new tickets being purchased when there is no contractual or legal basis to do so.

 

[Vespa]

Is there a particular set of T&C that can be quoted back to the ticket or gate staff about ticket validity, which is successful in resolving it ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Likewise a refusal on a TPE service, where the guard couldn't process an excess fare, refused to do so and then wanted to issue a TIR. Eventually after quoting the cost of the excess and a 10 minute polite argument (a change of route on the return portion of a LDS-GLQ from via Appleby to Any Permitted) it was done but after being told I intended to evade the fare by not obtaining an excess before hand when there isn't a requirement to do so. This should be a simple easy to do matter for anyone with training on selling tickets.

I have purchased a few one-direction route excesses in the past. More of them have been got wrong than not, most commonly charging the full difference rather than half the difference, but also outright refusal and probably other screw-ups I can't remember. I don't know why so many staff seem to have issues with them - and unlike most other issues discussed in this thread, not knowing how to do them or being unwilling to do them is definitely, in my experience, a majority problem and not a minority one.

You've then got if it comes up as zero fare...they really run a mile then. I have never managed to have a zero-fare excess issued, ever; there have always been excuses made or flat refusal - and I have tried a few times. Even where I've had something issued, they've done it another way - such as Euston LM ticket office preferred to refund a ticket that I had already partially used for travel and sell a replacement than to do a zero-fare overdistance excess. Back in the more reasonable days of the 1990s it'd just be "it's the same fare, don't worry about it", but now things are absolute this problem needs to be solved.

The problem with a TIR being issued is that if it gets to shysters like TIL (Transport Investigations Ltd[1]) then what they don't do is look at it in detail to see if it was right or not, but rather they just go straight for the jugular.

[1] So "professional" that their SSL certificate expired two days ago. I'm not convinced their response to someone whose season ticket expired two days ago would be as accepting.

 

[Randomer]

The problem with a TIR being issued is that if it gets to shysters like TIL (Transport Investigations Ltd[1]) then what they don't do is look at it in detail to see if it was right or not, but rather they just go straight for the jugular.

Exactly why I ended up arguing my point for 10 minutes. I wasn't even entering the potential grey area of excessing to off-peak TPE only which I think I posted about here when considering doing so for a previous journey.

Personally I have absolutely no faith in private companies like TIL being allowed to carry out private prosecutions. As Yorkie posted previously there have been posted cases on this forum both historically and within the past 6 months of TIL prosecuting people with completely valid tickets and passengers incurring legal costs defending themselves against absolutely baseless prosecutions. We can't know how many people have accepted settlement offers when threatened with prosecution despite TIL having absolutely no case.

Edited to add: The TIR procedure should fundamentally be a good thing; gives the benefit of the doubt to passengers, ensures passengers can continue there journey when the person inspecting the ticket isn't sure about validity and avoids the lack of knowledge that seems to be incumbent in some of the penalty fare appeals schemes. The problem is that it relies on people with a good knowledge of ticketing actually looking at the TIR to decide on the issue. There are some people very knowledgeable about ticketing working for TOC and other companies, several of whom are members here. My issue is that you can't guarantee you won't get somebody with as little or less knowledge than the person who issued the TIR in the first place.

 

[yorkie]

Is there a particular set of T&C that can be quoted back to the ticket or gate staff about ticket validity, which is successful in resolving it ?

The best thing to do, where possible, is obtain a travel itinerary from the point of sale, and if you are sticking to that itinerary, show it to staff. This is especially useful if you are using a combination of Advance fares; it makes acceptance easy, and any Delay Repay claim is easy and you will no doubt be supported by the retailer.

If the passenger in the Sowerby Bridge example had used a split ticket provider, I am sure that provider would have intervened on their behalf and this would have avoided the matter going to court and maybe got some vouchers for the customer as compensation.

Use a retailer you trust to back you up in the event of any problems.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Personally I have absolutely no faith in private companies like TIL being allowed to carry out private prosecutions. As Yorkie posted previously there have been posted cases on this forum both historically and within the past 6 months of TIL prosecuting people with completely valid tickets and passengers incurring legal costs defending themselves against absolutely baseless prosecutions. We can't know how many people have accepted settlement offers when threatened with prosecution despite TIL having absolutely no case.

Completely agreed. I believe the railway is so irresponsible in the use of what is a tremendously powerful tool that it should have that removed, i.e. the ticketing parts of RoRA and the Byelaws should be repealed and them left to pursue unpaid fares as civil debt. As another alternative, a separate statutory body could be established to deal with these matters properly, in the manner of Council parking tickets.

Edited to add: The TIR procedure should fundamentally be a good thing; gives the benefit of the doubt to passengers, ensures passengers can continue there journey when the person inspecting the ticket isn't sure about validity and avoids the lack of knowledge that seems to be incumbent in some of the penalty fare appeals schemes. The problem is that it relies on people with a good knowledge of ticketing actually looking at the TIR to decide on the issue. There are some people very knowledgeable about ticketing working for TOC and other companies, several of whom are members here. My issue is that you can't guarantee you won't get somebody with as little or less knowledge than the person who issued the TIR in the first place.

Again completely agreed - in principle "let's deal with it offline" is a great idea - a report is lodged, you give correct details, and then you in due course either get a letter asking for payment of the additional fare due or one confirming that no fare is due. But that's not how it is being used now, it is, by and large, being misused.

 

[Weary Walker]

Yorkie: <partial quote>" obtain a travel itinerary from the point of sale, and if you are sticking to that itinerary, show it to staff.... it makes acceptance easy,"

A number of years ago I had an APEX ticket. It specified the exact trains I had to take.
For each leg of the journey the ticket showed departure station, departure time, arrival station and arrival time.
Underneath the list is stated "only valid on these trains"
I travelled on it to the letter

I was still told it wasn't valid on one of the legs.
The member of staff eventually walked off mumbling "it isn't valid, it isn't valid" when I asked him what other train he thought existed that I should be travelling on.

 

[miami]

I've been denied boarding at euston with a reservation on the exact train. There's no comeback, so why do they care?

 

[Jimbob52]

Which is slightly bizarre, because almost[1] anything that could even vaguely possibly be valid via there operates the barriers at New St.

[1] I actually bought, online (and collected from a TVM), a single from Wick to Altnabreac, to see if that would. It didn't, but anything else I've ever put in the gate at New St has done.

My experience of New Street is different. Pre-Covid, I was a regular user of the 09.31 to Manchester Piccadilly, the first off-peak service.

The TVMs would not issue an off-peak ticket until 09.30, leaving no time to get to the platform. The ticket office would sell an off-peak ticket before 09.30 but this would never operate the barrier. The staff would always let me through but there was no interest in re-programming the barriers or TVMs.

Incidentally, the ticket office seemed to get less efficient over time, with fewer counter positions manned and longer queues.

 

[miami]

Incidentally, the ticket office seemed to get less efficient over time, with fewer counter positions manned and longer queues.

Fewer positions suggests may well improve efficency. Longer queues means more people will use the TVMs, so ticket office costs go down, tickets sold remains the same, efficiency increases.

Why not buy the ticket online and collect? Doesn't solve the barrier problem of course.

 

[1955LR]

My experience of New Street is different. Pre-Covid, I was a regular user of the 09.31 to Manchester Piccadilly, the first off-peak service.

The TVMs would not issue an off-peak ticket until 09.30, leaving no time to get to the platform. The ticket office would sell an off-peak ticket before 09.30 but this would never operate the barrier. The staff would always let me through but there was no interest in re-programming the barriers or TVMs.

Incidentally, the ticket office seemed to get less efficient over time, with fewer counter positions manned and longer queues.

I have had a similar issue at New Street , having an off peak ticket for a train leaving at 09:34 and the barrier wont allow me through until 09:30 and the attendant wouldn't open it. . As I had split the ticket coming up from HFD, I had the return part of that anytime ticket so I used that to open the barrier . Staff seemed surprised!!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have had a similar issue at New Street , having an off peak ticket for a train leaving at 09:34 and the barrier wont allow me through until 09:30 and the attendant wouldn't open it. . As I had split the ticket coming up from HFD, I had the return part of that anytime ticket so I used that to open the barrier . Staff seemed surprised!!

When I had a Travelcard season I used that to work barriers more often than not in order to avoid any arguments about validity when using tickets that were valid but might be argued about.

 

[maniacmartin]

There's definitely an attitutude problem with many gateline staff refusing to listen to any explanation. Once they form an opinion on the validity, nothing will change their mind.

I've been denied entry before at a gateline when I showed a letter from that TOC's fares manager stating my ticket was valid. Because apparently the fares manager was wrong!

 

[sheff1]

What was the ticket?

We had a specfic problem at Darlington that took forever to get to the bottom of, a very simple fix once we knew what it was. If you can let us know what the ticket was we can look into it.

North East Rover.
I understand from posts on here that Rovers aren't easy to programme into gates for some reason ... but that is no reason to be told it is "not valid". A simple "seek assistance", as seen at various other places would be much better.

I also got the same message at Darlington when I used the station facilities (cash machine)* whilst changing trains, in accordance with the itinerary, on an Advance ticket. In that case the ticket was ONLY valid to change at Darlington.

* Passed through the manual gate on the way out, but the attendant had disappeared after I had got the cash.

 

[Watershed]

I also got the same message at Darlington when I used the station facilities (cash machine)* whilst changing trains, in accordance with the itinerary

The itinerary presumably didn't require you to leave and enter the barriers? In which case whilst you weren't breaking the terms of your Advance in your particular circumstances, it is probably very low down the list of priorities to "fix". In fact it may even be desirable to ask people why they are exiting if the TOC intends to enforce Advance BoJ restrictions.

 

[philthetube]

photograph the staff member, stating that you need evidence of where you were delayed for your delay repay claim and you may be let through, the one time I tried it it worked.

 

[scrapy]

Probably should be another thread, but are there any rules about throwing someone off a train? I assume there must be some sort of guidance to prevent a vulnerable person being left to fend for themselves at a remote location.

It depends what you call chucking someone off a train. I've never seen a guard physically chuck a passenger off a train. Whilst the bylaws may allow some staff to use reasonable force to remove someone I doubt there is a TOC in the land that would let their staff do this (with the possible exception accredited security staff), and would probably result in dismissal.

If a guard gives a passenger a choice either leave the train or they will call BTP. If the passenger then leaves the train that is their own choice. The passenger also has the choice to wait for BTP to arrive. That is the scenario I've seen most likely to happen but may be referred by others as chucking them off.

Again if a person the guard could reasonably be expected to know is vulnerable (eg obviously under 18) is offered that choice then I'd expect retraining with disciplinary action a strong possibility.

I'm not trying to get into a debate over whether a guard is right to do this as every situation is different. Any guard that delays trains on anything but the odd occasion over ticketing matters is unlikely to be popular with management.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think "chucking someone off the train" would generally more mean asking them to leave it, e.g. on the grounds of having no ticket and refusing to purchase one.

 

[LowLevel]

I think "chucking someone off the train" would generally more mean asking them to leave it, e.g. on the grounds of having no ticket and refusing to purchase one.

Correct. While there are still a small number of guards who will physically remove unpleasant individuals (usually aggravated rather than simple fare evaders) when I say chucking off I mean telling to leave or having a police officer do the chucking for you. Doing it yourself isn't desirable and is against company policy and leaves you wide open to all sorts of problems.

"Policy" is usually to only evict fare evaders at larger manned stations with multiple staff members or police and to never evict under 18s unless it's into the custody of a police officer. I wouldn't say the former is regularly adhered to, adults get booted off at unmanned stations all the time, but it gives the company a helpful fall back to say someone was acting against policy if an incident makes the news.

I have physically intervened with passengers but only when they themselves are engaged in violent conduct towards others, never over a fares issue and if they try and have a go at me I always retreat if possible. That is also at your own risk but personally I was never going to abandon individuals who had been cornered to a pasting while I watched.

 

[Njal]

Here's someone being chucked off a train in Scotland:

 

[Jimbob52]

Fewer positions suggests may well improve efficency. Longer queues means more people will use the TVMs, so ticket office costs go down, tickets sold remains the same, efficiency increases.

Why not buy the ticket online and collect? Doesn't solve the barrier problem of course.

With respect, your definition of ‘efficiency’ is different from mine.

Because the TVM is not properly programmed to sell a valid ticket, passengers have to queue at the ticket office – to which your response is that by allowing the queues in the ticket office to get longer, passengers are more likely to use the TVM . . .

Would it not be more ‘efficient’ to programme the TVM to sell off-peak tickets from, say, 15 minutes before the off-peak period starts?

 

[miami]

With respect, your definition of ‘efficiency’ is different from mine.

Maximising revenue minimising costs

passengers are more likely to use the TVM . . .

And purchase a more expensive ticket than they need.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maximising revenue minimising costs

I'd use the term "cost-efficiency" there, as it has only one priority. Plain "efficiency" would to me include speed of processing of passengers.

 

[43096]

I think "chucking someone off the train" would generally more mean asking them to leave it, e.g. on the grounds of having no ticket and refusing to purchase one.

The best example of that I saw was a GA guard who gave a refuse to pay the choice of BTP on arrival at Norwich or off at the next stop. They chose the latter. Next stop? Berney Arms.