If you buy a valid ticket for your journey, are you guaranteed to have it accepted?

[MotCO]

As another alternative, a separate statutory body could be established to deal with these matters properly, in the manner of Council parking tickets.

Agree, and suggest it is called RailUK Forums! The knowledge on this forum is second to none, and should always result in the right answer (even when there are clearly some grey areas, in which case the passenger should be given the benefit of the doubt). It could also raise some funds for the forum!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The best example of that I saw was a GA guard who gave a refuse to pay the choice of BTP on arrival at Norwich or off at the next stop. They chose the latter. Next stop? Berney Arms.

I wonder has anyone ever been chucked off at Altnabreac?

 

[infobleep]

I have been stopped at gatelines with a valid ticket before. Usually I was attempting to make a journey.

After two such incidents at one station, over time, I decided for any future journeys using the same line, I just join from a nearby unbarriered station. Problem solved. Not everyone have access to unbarriered stations in order to use valid tickets though.

 

[PeterC]

Here's someone being chucked off a train in Scotland:

A friend of mine once, quite literally, threw a guy off a train after he attempted to sexually assault him. The guard and a porter came over to investigate and on hearing the reason both put the boot in a couple of times themselves. This was back in the 1970s of course.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've sort of thrown someone off a bus who refused to pay and got abusive with the driver, though I didn't physically throw him off, I just stood in the aisle by the driver holding the bars on both sides, making it clear I wasn't going to move, and eventually he gave up and got off. (he was a lot smaller than me).

They do it differently in Scotland. I still remember (and have recounted here a few times) a very slight female guard chasing a fare dodger off the train, out of the station and down the street to try to catch him. I don't think she did, but it was a valiant attempt.

 

[Tallguy]

Here's someone being chucked off a train in Scotland:

The guy who got involved is guilty of assault at the very least. The guard should have asked him not to get involved as the guard is now party to that assault.

You leave things like this to the Police who are trained and equipped to deal with such situations.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Isn't the vigilante passenger incident in Scotland (mentioned upthread) from late 2011? (Linlithgow?)

BTP received a complaint, and the vigilante passenger subsequently got charged with assault, IIRC.

 

[LOL The Irony]

The guy who got involved is guilty of assault at the very least. The guard should have asked him not to get involved as the guard is now party to that assault.

You leave things like this to the Police who are trained and equipped to deal with such situations.

Isn't the vigilante passenger incident in Scotland (mentioned upthread) from late 2011? (Linlithgow?)

BTP received a complaint, and the vigilante passenger subsequently got charged with assault, IIRC.

That's a situation I'd just turn a blind eye to.

 

[87 027]

Isn't the vigilante passenger incident in Scotland (mentioned upthread) from 2011?

BTP subsequently received a complaint, and the vigilante passenger got charged with assault, IIRC.

He was charged with assault but the authorities decided not to go ahead with the prosecution

'Big man' video: No charges over passenger thrown off train - BBC News

 

[Bletchleyite]

He was charged with assault but the authorities decided not to go ahead with the prosecution

'Big man' video: No charges over passenger thrown off train - BBC News

Good. All he did was chuck him off, not cause serious injury. Sometimes I think life was better when you got an immediate (minor, but highly inconvenient) consequence of poor behaviour in that way. A nice long walk home to think about it, or a nice long wait for the next train, or a dent in the bank account for a taxi.

FWIW, this is "modus operandi" on London buses a lot of the time, particularly late at night and/or in rough areas. If there's a problem, switch off the engine, get the newspaper out (hence the "newspaper method"), and wait for a big bloke to chuck the offender off, which will usually happen in very short order.

 

[sheff1]

The itinerary presumably didn't require you to leave and enter the barriers? In which case whilst you weren't breaking the terms of your Advance in your particular circumstances, it is probably very low down the list of priorities to "fix". In fact it may even be desirable to ask people why they are exiting if the TOC intends to enforce Advance BoJ restrictions.

So why didn't the message say "seek assistance", which is what is displayed at various other stations if the gate programmers want the ticket to be checked, rather than the false statement that the ticket is not valid at Darlington ?

As an aside, I spoke to the gate attendant before exiting to explain I was wanting to use the cash machine but, as I said, they were not there on the way back.

 

[Watershed]

So why didn't the message say "seek assistance", which is what is displayed at various other stations if the gate programmers want the ticket to be checked, rather than the false statement that the ticket is not valid at Darlington ?

As an aside, I spoke to the gate attendant before exiting to explain I was wanting to use the cash machine but, as I said, they were not there on the way back.

I don't think it is a fundamentally false statement when the general rule is that intermediate BoJ is not permitted, even if there is an exception to that. It is certainly a more descriptive error and means that barrier staff know more easily what the barrier has rejected the ticket for rather than guessing at intractable codes.

 

[sheff1]

I don't think it is a fundamentally false statement

if you think "Ticket not valid at this loaction" is not a fundamentally false statement, when the ticket in question is specifically valid at that location because that is where I MUST change trains, then I see no point in engaging further.

 

[Watershed]

if you think "Ticket not valid at this loaction" is not a fundamentally false statement, when the ticket in question is specifically valid at that location because that is where I MUST change trains, then I see no point in engaging further.

Are you sure it didn't say "ticket not valid for exit at this location"? That is the typical error used by most barriers, as they have to differentiate between validity for entry and for exit.

Changing trains doesn't require exiting the barriers at Darlington and neither does it at 99% of other barriered stations.

In the context of an Advance, which inherently bars BoJ, it therefore seems perfectly logical to say "ticket not valid for exit" at an intermediate location.

 

[sheff1]

Are you sure it didn't say "ticket not valid for exit at this location"? That is the typical error used by most barriers, as they have to differentiate between validity for entry and for exit.

Changing trains doesn't require exiting the barriers at Darlington and neither does it at 99% of other barriered stations.

In the context of an Advance, which inherently bars BoJ, it therefore seems perfectly logical to say "ticket not valid for exit" at an intermediate location.

I know I said there was no point in engaiging further, but I will make one last reply - as I was entering at the time, if it did say "not valid for exit" it would also be an erroneous messge if the barrier is supposed to differentiate between entry and exit.

I wait to see if either Haywain or Wallesndmag can throw any light on my experience.

 

[infobleep]

Are you sure it didn't say "ticket not valid for exit at this location"? That is the typical error used by most barriers, as they have to differentiate between validity for entry and for exit.

Changing trains doesn't require exiting the barriers at Darlington and neither does it at 99% of other barriered stations.

In the context of an Advance, which inherently bars BoJ, it therefore seems perfectly logical to say "ticket not valid for exit" at an intermediate location.

I know you said 99‰ but Earlswood and Impiral Wharf are two stations where a change of train requires you to exit the barrier. Admittedly you be going in the reverse direction from the other platform.

 

[PG]

I've sort of thrown someone off a bus who refused to pay and got abusive with the driver, though I didn't physically throw him off, I just stood in the aisle by the driver holding the bars on both sides, making it clear I wasn't going to move, and eventually he gave up and got off. (he was a lot smaller than me).

They do it differently in Scotland. I still remember (and have recounted here a few times) a very slight female guard chasing a fare dodger off the train, out of the station and down the street to try to catch him. I don't think she did, but it was a valiant attempt.

Back in the day I threw a well inebriated 'gentleman' off the last bus of the day, or more correctly denied him boarding. Never laid a finger on him, just got out of the cab and repeated "Off!" to him while pointing at the door and simultaneously blocking the gangway - with the only other passengers being two young ladies (and no likelihood of more) and 15 miles of open countryside to drive I wasn't for chancing on him leaving them alone. He kind of made his case or rather lack of it by waving a twenty pound note in my face - back then that would have covered the taxi fare and a lot more!

 

[father_jack]

Would it not be more ‘efficient’ to programme the TVM to sell off-peak tickets from, say, 15 minutes before the off-peak period starts?

Snipped.

The "Shere"/"Wordline" (brand names) ticket vending machines can be programmed to give a grace period. It's quite a bit of work involving validity codes and destinations, say you take W1 which is off peak day return (CDR) valid from 0930 from A to B. The last peak train is 0922 so you set the off peak tickets to vend from 0918, 4 minutes to being enough time to transact and get to the platform to miss the peak train. The will needs to be there from whoever is programming the machine. And for some reason at a fares change the programming drops out and has to be done all over again.

On the other hand the S&B (brand name) ticket machine sells any ticket any time which creates lots of issues but the industry seems to be content with. I call it entrapment up to a point, "others" call it customer service which is a lazy answer because it clearly makes less work for those who programme the timings of sales which is the point that we are discussing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On the other hand the S&B (brand name) ticket machine sells any ticket any time

Do they? The one at Bletchley definitely doesn't show Off Peak tickets at peak time, though you can make it produce one (if purchasing for later) by selecting "tickets for another day/time" and specifying a time that would be off-peak.

 

[aar0]

wonder if your likelihood of having your ticket accepted varies depending on who you are? When there's doubt or it comes down to individual judgement then it seems very open to bias and prejudice. Factors such as how you're dressed, perceived social class, or more concerningly characteristics like gender, age and race might mean that some people are given the benefit of the doubt, where others might be more likely to be challenged or not believed. I've certainly been spoken to by railway staff in a way that I think it's unlikely they'd speak to someone else.

I think this is very much the case, I've got away with questionable tickets knowing I'm chancing it, (but half expecting to be asked to excess etc) and got away with it, but I'm a well spoken white man and I almost always wear a shirt to travel in. My partner who is fewer of these has had hassle for valid tickets, and avoids splitting without me as she's had to buy another on board before from guards who probably wouldn't have badgered me into buying.

 

[Tallguy]

Good. All he did was chuck him off, not cause serious injury. Sometimes I think life was better when you got an immediate (minor, but highly inconvenient) consequence of poor behaviour in that way. A nice long walk home to think about it, or a nice long wait for the next train, or a dent in the bank account for a taxi.

FWIW, this is "modus operandi" on London buses a lot of the time, particularly late at night and/or in rough areas. If there's a problem, switch off the engine, get the newspaper out (hence the "newspaper method"), and wait for a big bloke to chuck the offender off, which will usually happen in very short order.

He assaulted the other passenger, opened himself up for public or private prosecution and there is always the risk that the scrote had a knife on him.....not worth the risk in my book.

 

[island]

I know I said there was no point in engaiging further, but I will make one last reply - as I was entering at the time, if it did say "not valid for exit" it would also be an erroneous messge if the barrier is supposed to differentiate between entry and exit.

I wait to see if either Haywain or Wallesndmag can throw any light on my experience.

The message “ticket not valid at this location, please use another ticket or seek assistance” is simply the default ticket rejection message for those types of barriers.

But as you said yourself, your ticket was not in fact valid to enter or exit the station, and once it was clarified what had happened, you were let through. No need to get worked-up.

 

[Dai Corner]

The message “ticket not valid at this location, please use another ticket or seek assistance” is simply the default ticket rejection message for those types of barriers.

But as you said yourself, your ticket was not in fact valid to enter or exit the station, and once it was clarified what had happened, you were let through. No need to get worked-up.

A more customer-friendly message might be 'Ticket may not be valid.....'

 

[Watershed]

He assaulted the other passenger, opened himself up for public or private prosecution and there is always the risk that the scrote had a knife on him.....not worth the risk in my book.

Not in this case as the incident occurred in Scotland, where the High Court has only given permission for a private prosecution on two occasions in the last century.

 

[island]

A more customer-friendly message might be 'Ticket may not be valid.....'

There is a lot to be said for merely “seek assistance”, it seems.

 

[jumble]

There is a lot to be said for merely “seek assistance”, it seems.

I don't understand why organisations make bold statements that might not be true
I was once stopped by South Yorkshire Police and later on their process office wrote to me and told me I had presented them with a bogus license as a fact
I told them firmly that they might be better off saying they were unable to verify my details, and the Policeman may have made a typo and would I be willing to assist .
I then told them my license was genuine and all in order and to get lost.

Never heard from them again

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is a lot to be said for merely “seek assistance”, it seems.

I don't see a problem with "seek assistance", the staff display could give more detail so they can interpret it.

 

[IceAgeComing]

The only time I had an issue was at Euston earlier this year when I was travelling to London and back to Scotland in a day for job interviews and I was combining an advance down with the special off-peak return half that I think they dropped over the summer. I once had the "its peak time; this isn't valid" and after I showed my reservation and said that I was going to Scotland they let me through which was nice. Because I go further on from Glasgow to a station that I think the gateline staff haven't heard of I did get the "where are you changing?" question a few times (I assume because off-peak tickets are only valid north of a certain point on the line) and when I answered Glasgow they just let me through fine: it seems like if you are going that far north they don't care as much.

I did once do the total opposite of this and got through a ticket check with (accidentally) the least valid ticket possible: I was going back from Waverley and got my return mixed up with some older tickets and ended up showing the man at the barriers a six week old Ryde St Johns-Portsmouth Harbour ticket and got through after it was correctly rejected in the barriers - pretty sure that one was off-peak and I was travelling in the peak as well. Only noticed it when I got on the train and took it back out of my wallet again to get ready for a check on the train itself and then saw that I'd mixed the two up. Guess that goes to show that the mistakes sometimes happen both ways!

 

[Watershed]

after I showed my reservation and said that I was going to Scotland they let me through which was nice. Because I go further on from Glasgow to a station that I think the gateline staff haven't heard of I did get the "where are you changing?" question a few times (I assume because off-peak tickets are only valid north of a certain point on the line) and when I answered Glasgow they just let me through fine: it seems like if you are going that far north they don't care as much.

I think in the minds of many such barrier staff, it's the stations you are travelling between on their company's services that matter.

Off-Peak tickets from London to Lancaster and north thereof are unrestricted in the evening "peak". If you were heading to somewhere on the Barrow-in-Furness line, you might entirely legitimately want to change at Preston (especially since, during past timetables, the BIF trains didn't all stop at Lancaster).

In that circumstance, I imagine stating you were changing at Preston could very well result in having your ticket wrongly rejected, particularly if the ticket was issued to a little known station like Kents Bank.

 

[sheff1]

The message “ticket not valid at this location, please use another ticket or seek assistance” is simply the default ticket rejection message for those types of barriers.

That is not what the message at Darlington said and is not the message shown in the post I qouted.

But as you said yourself, your ticket was not in fact valid to enter or exit the station, and once it was clarified what had happened, you were let through. No need to get worked-up.

I did not exit or enter the station. I was on the station for the whole time between getting off the first train and boarding the connecting train.

Not "worked-up". Just pointing out that the displayed message was incorrect.