If you buy a valid ticket for your journey, are you guaranteed to have it accepted?

[SteveM70]

Why are machines programmed with stilted non-everyday phrases like “seek assistance” rather than “ask for help”?

 

[PG]

Why are machines programmed with stilted non-everyday phrases like “seek assistance” rather than “ask for help”?

Probably for the same reason that self-checkouts say "Unexpected item in the bagging area" instead of "You didn't scan that, did you?!".

 

[Wuffle]

Probably for the same reason that self-checkouts say "Unexpected item in the bagging area" instead of "You didn't scan that, did you?!".

As a now retired engineer who used to repair Self Checkouts as it's all done by weight comparison it simply could be that the store entered the weight incorrectly so the reported weight didn't match the database weight
Newspaper supplements at the weekend were the worst culprits as the weight varied all the time

 

[RJ]

I wonder if your likelihood of having your ticket accepted varies depending on who you are? When there's doubt or it comes down to individual judgement then it seems very open to bias and prejudice. Factors such as how you're dressed, perceived social class, or more concerningly characteristics like gender, age and race might mean that some people are given the benefit of the doubt, where others might be more likely to be challenged or not believed. I've certainly been spoken to by railway staff in a way that I think it's unlikely they'd speak to someone else.

People in positions of authority who choose to be so blinded by prejudice that they can't judge a situation for what it is need putting in their place. It needs to be nipped in the bud as people like that have no issues with manipulating their colleagues or the police into thinking you've done something you haven't. There are ways of achieving this whilst staying on the right side of the law - and they hate that

Often these people will explode with rage if their colleagues or the police attend and after assessing the situation, don't lend their support. At that point it just becomes a sad spectacle to watch without needing to say anything further.

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

People in positions of authority who choose to be so blinded by prejudice that they can't judge a situation for what it is need putting in their place. It needs to be nipped in the bud as people like that have no issues with manipulating their colleagues or the police into thinking you've done something you haven't. There are ways of achieving this whilst staying on the right side of the law - and they hate that

Often these people will explode with rage if their colleagues or the police attend and after assessing the situation, don't lend their support. At that point it just becomes a sad spectacle to watch without needing to say anything further.

Unfortunately, if you scroll through this section you'll see that one of the most common phrases is "it's your word against theirs",

Who'd believe you?

 

[Typhoon]

As a now retired engineer who used to repair Self Checkouts as it's all done by weight comparison it simply could be that the store entered the weight incorrectly so the reported weight didn't match the database weight
Newspaper supplements at the weekend were the worst culprits as the weight varied all the time

Some sympathy for store staff in the sort of case you mention. I had the 'unexpected item' message after scanning a magazine. The staff member explained that I had not taken out the junk advertising (which included a mini-catalogue) and left it behind like most people did.

 

[RJ]

Unfortunately, if you scroll through this section you'll see that one of the most common phrases is "it's your word against theirs",

Who'd believe you?

That one is easy - you video record the exchange as soon as it becomes clear they are choosing not to accept your valid ticket. Make them aware that it is being recorded, but don't say anything more than that. You can't be accused of threatening someone if you don't tell them what your next move will be.

It's not a very nice thing to do, but with certain types of people, you fight fire with fire. It's not nice for them to demand money from you, commit you to a debt, disrupt your journey, subject you to police investigations, or try and manipulate other passengers into starting on you because they are not familiar with the valid ticket you have shown them.

Ask them if they'd treat someone else with a different set of protected characteristics the same way. Whether or not they answer, whoever watches the footage can make their own decisions about how reasonable their behaviour is.

 

[infobleep]

That one is easy - you video record the exchange as soon as it becomes clear they are choosing not to accept your valid ticket. Make them aware that it is being recorded, but don't say anything more than that. You can't be accused of threatening someone if you don't tell them what your next move will be.

It's not a very nice thing to do, but with certain types of people, you fight fire with fire. It's not nice for them to demand money from you, commit you to a debt, disrupt your journey, subject you to police investigations, or try and manipulate other passengers into starting on you because they are not familiar with the valid ticket you have shown them.

Ask them if they'd treat someone else with a different set of protected characteristics the same way. Whether or not they answer, whoever watches the footage can make their own decisions about how reasonable their behaviour is.

I wouldn't have the nerve to film someone in this way.

I've not had too many issues mind you.

 

[RJ]

Each situation on its own merits I guess. Quite a few people on here have had valid tickets rejected, resulting in being denied travel, out of pocket or various other headaches. And the TOCs often don't do anything to resolve it, unless you ruffle feathers which is effort. Therefore the best strategy is to nip it in the bud.

Sometimes you have to topple the balance of power in these situations, otherwise you end up at a loss and the whoever checks the ticket faces no consequence at all. You're doing all parties concerned a favour by trying to stop it happening so getting that nerve is beneficial .

Once upon a time I was far too worried about being polite with these people, but after all the PFNs, UFNs, calls to BTP, threatening letters, getting physical with me etc. I realised being nice to those people just contributes to those headaches. As soon as I changed tactic in how I communicated with those inspectors who rejected my valid tickets, all of those things stopped. The less predictable your actions are, the better.

 

[Haywain]

Ask them if they'd treat someone else with a different set of protected characteristics the same way.

This suggests discrimination is at play but I think that many would not be considered to be in such a position, and I would be concerned that simply recording an exchange would be seen by some as aggravating a situation.

 

[RJ]

This suggests discrimination is at play but I think that many would not be considered to be in such a position, and I would be concerned that simply recording an exchange would be seen by some as aggravating a situation.

There will always be mixed views on how these situations are handled. And sometimes that means taking criticism for the tactics used to nip problems in the bud.

A lot of people have not been in a situation where their age, gender and race plays a significant part in being treated very unfavourably by some people in a position of authority. For those who have, or those who appreciate that people from other demographics may face different day to day challenges, it makes more sense as to why it's necessary to shut these people down before they get a chance to cause real problems.

I would never recommend aggravating someone who is doing their job correctly. But in the case of bullies who are not doing their job correctly, I think recording them is pretty benign. Some of them are nasty pieces of work - they insult and goad you in the hope of having more ammunition to give to the BTP - and when you don't rise to it they just tell them you've been aggressive and might be carrying a weapon.

 

[Haywain]

There will always be mixed views on how these situations are handled. And sometimes that means taking criticism for the tactics used to nip problems in the bud.

A lot of people have not been in a situation where their age, gender and race plays a significant part in being treated very unfavourably by some people in a position of authority. For those who have, or those who appreciate that people from other demographics may face different day to day challenges, it makes more sense as to why it's necessary to shut these people down before they get a chance to cause real problems.

All very fair comment. I think the problem for many people is that the confidence that a ticket is valid is not necessarily matched by having the confidence to take a firm enough approach with those who challenge that.

 

[miami]

I think the problem for many people is that the confidence that a ticket is valid

In my experience railstaff don't understand conditions of travel or ticket restriction codes, let alone interpret ambiguous restrictions in the same way a passenger may. That makes me think even a simple website which says "yes" or "no" wouldn't work.

Not much you can do in that situation.

The solution has to come from regulating the industry -- massive fines for errant accusations. Accused fare evasion? If found guilty get a criminal prosecution and £150 fine? That's about 0.5% of the average wage. Typical TOC takes about £1b in revenue, so an incorrect fare evasion report should attract a £5m fine and a criminal record for the directors of the firm making the accusation.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I travel with a Disabled Railcard and I do find I have no problems at all, which I think is because staff don’t want to be seen creating trouble with a disabled person. Obviously my tickets are valid, and I wouldn’t say questionable, but others appear to have had issues with the same tickets-mainly off-peak tickets which are perfectly valid in peak time for the journey-so it could be.
However, some people seem to have trouble with all their tickets, which might be more to do with them than their tickets!
If I want to “try-it on” with an invalid ticket I always ask the guard before boarding. A lot of the time it’s a “yes” (depends how invalid the ticket is!) but if it’s a “no” I understand and thank them anyway. I can’t exactly complain!
Of course, the issue is sometimes getting to the guard (Euston barrier staff, looking at you!) I had a London Midland (as then was) free ticket, it was black & white, not orange card, and thicker than an orange card ticket, valid any LM train all day. The Euston barrier staff were insistent I put it through the barrier! I pointed out it had no magnetic stripe, but they still insisted, so I did. It jammed inside the barrier and caused quite a hold-up whilst they had to disassemble the machine to get it out! They still made out it was my fault! But they did let me on the train despite the barriers rejection.

 

[RJ]

Someone I know has a Disabled Freedom pass and travels daily. She used the Overground from a TOC managed station until a TOC member of staff told her the Freedom Pass was not valid before 0930 and refused to let her through the barriers. She tried to challenge it but was told she was wrong, so after that day woke up earlier and took the bus, adding 30 minutes and an extra interchange to the journey.

This went on for weeks and the day I was told about I wasn't happy to say the least. I told her from the next day she takes the Overground again. I found the station details and got in touch with them immediately. The issue never happened again.

 

[DorkingMain]

I've had a member of agency Gateline staff call revenue + BTP to me because he'd never seen a PRIV before. I then received a letter of "apology" from the station manager which tried to shift part of the blame onto me for not explaining to the member of staff what a PRIV was (?)

Also had a guard on a long-distance train try to tell me my split ticket was not valid, and attempted to sell me a new ticket for £100. He eventually gave up only when I refused to buy it and pulled up Section 14 on my phone.

So I'm afraid the answer is no.

 

[Deepgreen]

This all sounds like a very good reason to keep on using the car.

Really?!

I've had a member of agency Gateline staff call revenue + BTP to me because he'd never seen a PRIV before. I then received a letter of "apology" from the station manager which tried to shift part of the blame onto me for not explaining to the member of staff what a PRIV was (?)

Also had a guard on a long-distance train try to tell me my split ticket was not valid, and attempted to sell me a new ticket for £100. He eventually gave up only when I refused to buy it and pulled up Section 14 on my phone.

So I'm afraid the answer is no.

My experience has been that fewer and fewer staff even know what Priv. tickets are! Not so long ago I was using a free ticket and had to use the manual gate at a major (but quiet at the time) station, and the staff member waved me through while saying "I've no idea what I'm looking at, but carry on"!

 

[infobleep]

There will always be mixed views on how these situations are handled. And sometimes that means taking criticism for the tactics used to nip problems in the bud.

A lot of people have not been in a situation where their age, gender and race plays a significant part in being treated very unfavourably by some people in a position of authority. For those who have, or those who appreciate that people from other demographics may face different day to day challenges, it makes more sense as to why it's necessary to shut these people down before they get a chance to cause real problems.

I would never recommend aggravating someone who is doing their job correctly. But in the case of bullies who are not doing their job correctly, I think recording them is pretty benign. Some of them are nasty pieces of work - they insult and goad you in the hope of having more ammunition to give to the BTP - and when you don't rise to it they just tell them you've been aggressive and might be carrying a weapon.

I was one with a friend who complained that the publish timetable wasn't what was running at it was late. He was extremely polite whilst complaining and they couldn't do much but listen.

I always think those who swear or get abusive lose the argument more easily.

 

[DorkingMain]

I was one with a friend who complained that the publish timetable wasn't what was running at it was late. He was extremely polite whilst complaining and they couldn't do much but listen.

I always think those who swear or get abusive lose the argument more easily.

I think is definitely true, but I also think there's members of staff who take the attitude that anyone disagreeing with them is doing so to cause a problem, not because there's a genuine issue.

 

[Trackman]

I've had a member of agency Gateline staff call revenue + BTP to me because he'd never seen a PRIV before. I then received a letter of "apology" from the station manager which tried to shift part of the blame onto me for not explaining to the member of staff what a PRIV was (?)

Also had a guard on a long-distance train try to tell me my split ticket was not valid, and attempted to sell me a new ticket for £100. He eventually gave up only when I refused to buy it and pulled up Section 14 on my phone.

So I'm afraid the answer is no.

We hear this all the time on these forums, I find it rather worrying. Don't get me wrong, there are some great guards who 'know the score' but there is percentage that do not.
Branded TOC gateline bods (not hired goons), in my experience really lack training.
One was honest with me once with a really simple request to stamp and endorse a ticket, they didn't have a clue, but at least they held their hands up.
I didn't travel much last year, but if it happens again I'm going to town with the TOC.

 

[MotCO]

Also had a guard on a long-distance train try to tell me my split ticket was not valid, and attempted to sell me a new ticket for £100. He eventually gave up only when I refused to buy it and pulled up Section 14 on my phone.

Sorry, what's a Section 14?

 

[miami]

National Rail condition of travel, the conditions of the contract between the ticket purchaser and the railway

Many railstaff are unaware of it. Section 14 covers combinations of tickets.

USING A COMBINATION OF TICKETS
14.1. Unless shown below, you may use a combination of two or more Tickets to make a journey provided that the train services you use call at the station(s) where you change from one Ticket to another.

14.2. If you are using a Season Ticket, daily Zonal Ticket, or another area based Ticket such as a concessionary pass, ranger or rover in conjunction with another Ticket and the last station at which one Ticket is valid and the first station that the other Ticket is valid are the same, then the train does not need to call at that station for your combination to be valid.

14.3. Some Tickets specifically exclude their use in conjunction with other Tickets. This will be made clear in the terms and conditions when buying such Tickets, and you cannot use such a Ticket in conjunction with another except as set out in 14.1 above.

14.4. In all cases you must comply with the specific terms and conditions of each of the Tickets you are using (for example, keeping to the valid route(s) and train services for which each Ticket is valid). It is your responsibility to check that you comply with the Conditions listed above.

 

[RJ]

I was one with a friend who complained that the publish timetable wasn't what was running at it was late. He was extremely polite whilst complaining and they couldn't do much but listen.

I always think those who swear or get abusive lose the argument more easily.

Where is the argument here though? The customer is complaining about the trains?

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

This suggests discrimination is at play but I think that many would not be considered to be in such a position, and I would be concerned that simply recording an exchange would be seen by some as aggravating a situation.

I've never tried it but I can't see a way of doing it without seeming a little standoffish. But if things already have got to that point I guess maybe there's not a huge amount to lose?

My experience being visibly queer is that it's rarely a problem, but once in a while I'll come across someone who's obstructive and generally just unreasonablely difficult to deal with. Of course there are always people who are just like that, so you end up wondering if it's a coincidence or not, but it happens far too often for it to be a coincidence *every* time...

Also I'm relatively well spoken and a lot more professional than I often appear. I can usually talk my way out of things where other people might not be able to.

 

[infobleep]

Where is the argument here though? The customer is complaining about the trains?

There wasn't one but if my friend had sworn when he complained, then I think, things would have turned out differently.

I have stated the case over tickets being valid before and staff disagreeing. I wasn't getting anywhere though.

In this perticular circumstances I decided it wasn't worth discussing it with them further and I just altered any future journeys I made by alighting at a different station nearby.

 

[philthetube]

f you said to the member of staff that you were going to record what they were saying so that you could pursue it then it would be quite difficult for them to object.

I would not be happy if someone got a camera/phone out and started filming me without saying why.

 

[LowLevel]

f you said to the member of staff that you were going to record what they were saying so that you could pursue it then it would be quite difficult for them to object.

I would not be happy if someone got a camera/phone out and started filming me without saying why.

I once had an obnoxious type who had a railcard discounted ticket for a train in about 8 hours on a different route when in fact she didn't hold a railcard at all decide she was going to "make me famous" and follow me around the train yawping away for the benefit of her fellow pond life associates.

This backfired because instead of charging her for the cheapest available ticket for the journey I just stopped interacting with her at all, walked to my cab and called the police without telling her I had done so. I had the pleasure of watching her being dragged away screaming when I asked for every offence I could think of (including putting her feet on the seats when sat underneath a sign telling her not to before I asked for her ticket, not to mention that she was going to put me on the Internet so people knew who I was and could sort me out which naturally caused significant alarm and distress ) to be stuck on her, luckily between her film and the on board CCTV she just about managed to provide the evidence for me

I had similar when I refused access to a regular fare evader who told me he knew his rights and it was "the law" that I had to "write him a fine" and let him travel. I politely advised him, on film, that I would probably next see him in court then, closed the doors and left him in the rain.

Sadly I never have become a YouTube sensation yet, probably because I would never let a debate with a reasonable person get that far. There are always ways of sorting it out, a simple exchange of details for a UPFN generally being enough to let the back office people sort it out with the customer later.

 

[RJ]

There wasn't one but if my friend had sworn when he complained, then I think, things would have turned out differently.

I have stated the case over tickets being valid before and staff disagreeing. I wasn't getting anywhere though.

In this perticular circumstances I decided it wasn't worth discussing it with them further and I just altered any future journeys I made by alighting at a different station nearby.

You shouldn't have to change your journey because of issues with getting a valid ticket accepted.

f you said to the member of staff that you were going to record what they were saying so that you could pursue it then it would be quite difficult for them to object.

I would not be happy if someone got a camera/phone out and started filming me without saying why.

It's an occupational hazard of working with the public - the TOC I work for has even issued briefs explaining what to do in these circumstances. It has happened to me once because I wouldn't give someone a refund they weren't entitled to and didn't want to take my advice of putting their case forward to customer services. They threatened to send the video to the local press and upload to Youtube and they're at liberty to do that. How much interest a video of me carrying out my duties in a professional manner would get I don't know, but I'm not a celebrity yet so I assume it came to nothing.

It very much depends on the type of person you're dealing with. 99.9% of staff are professional and will handle unfamiliar tickets an appropriate manner. If you're dealing with a bully type then you use appropriate forms of communication to handle them. I've experienced some of these inspectors say some vile and provocative things to me, which they know they they'll get away with if they think there's no evidence of it. People like that, you don't ask them politely to stop being nasty to you. You use other tactics to stop them. That could be getting a camera out, or telling them to move on (which isn't illegal), or getting on the phone to their manager or control room, or killing the conversation by putting headphones on. Some people with a short fuse would do illegal things for far less. There's nothing in the railway byelaws that say customers have to take abuse from staff and there's nothing that outlaws using those tactics to handle them either. Will they like it? Nope.

And they will still object if you tell them why you are recording.

 

[infobleep]

You shouldn't have to change your journey because of issues with getting a valid ticket accepted.

Well perhaps not but then if the route I took suddenly wasn't legitimatly valid any more because I'd continued to use it to the station, it might not have done me any favours at the time! I'll leave it at that!

 

[i4n]

I've had issues with station staff not accepting a valid ticket, but not on board staff. I commute into London from the far South East and took advantage of the station grouping in the area to greatly open up my routes with no additional cost on my annual season ticket so got it from Ramsgate into Zone 1. Because my normal station wasn't on the fastest/most direct route the Key card didn't open the gates at my normal station. The gateline staff would let me through but one day a person that works in the ticket office took my Key off of me (literally whipped it out of my hand before I knew what was happening), threatened to confiscate it as it wasn't valid, took my details off of the Key onto a bit of paper (never did find out what happened to my personal data) and I only got it back when I started to create a fuss and the manager got involved after they started to shout at me in front of other passengers! They even threatened to call the BTP which I told them I had no objections to. I even pointed out that I spent over 7 grand on a season ticket for the year, and wasn't skipping out of paying a £5 fare or something.

This nearly happened again with the same staff member a few weeks later so it ended up with me raising a formal complaint with South Eastern, getting it in writing that what I was doing was perfectly legal (the person I spoke to in their offices was impressed with what I was doing!) before it stopped, although I got the most evil looks from them for the remainder of the ticket validity as I'm sure they still thought I was doing something wrong.

One of their colleagues was really helpful on renewal time and looked through all the routes I could take with changing the origin station and it turned out that by changing it to another one it would still be valid for what I needed it for outside of my normal commute and also open the gates at my normal station. Funnily enough as the gates now open the person who originally had the issue with me is perfectly fine so it does go back to what I've seen on other threads of people thinking that if a ticket doesn't open a gate it isn't valid.