Is electrifying Windermere worth it?

[Agent_Squash]

144m at Windermere, Staveley 71m, Burneside 92m, Kendal 92m, Oxenholme 142m. Don't go off what the Quail says, its often wrong.
If a 195 is 24m long then its 3 cars at best unless ASDO is used.

Oxenholme and Staveley are getting platform extensions this summer to allow for 6 car 195s as the Cumbria - Airport services are routing via Bolton.

 

[Killingworth]

144m at Windermere, Staveley 71m, Burneside 92m, Kendal 92m, Oxenholme 142m. Don't go off what the Quail says, its often wrong.
If a 195 is 24m long then its 3 cars at best unless ASDO is used.

Although ASDO can be used, as is currently being demonstrated at weekends on the Hope Valley line with 5 and 6 car 195s at 4 car platforms.

 

[zwk500]

Although ASDO can be used, as is currently being demonstrated at weekends on the Hope Valley line with 5 and 6 car 195s at 4 car platforms.

Do northern use a beacon based ASDO system or guard selection?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Although ASDO can be used, as is currently being demonstrated at weekends on the Hope Valley line with 5 and 6 car 195s at 4 car platforms.

Oxenholme and Staveley are getting platform extensions this summer to allow for 6 car 195s as the Cumbria - Airport services are routing via Bolton.

Presumably this is to avoid issues of a whole unit being off, thus some unable to alight even if they walk through? The Barrow line might be similar, unless they are going to lock a unit out at Lancaster, but that is now getting busy enough at times that it could do with 6.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Presumably this is to avoid issues of a whole unit being off, thus some unable to alight even if they walk through? The Barrow line might be similar, unless they are going to lock a unit out at Lancaster, but that is now getting busy enough at times that it could do with 6.

I think Staveley is the only station with the issue - Dalton, on the other hand, is getting an extension with longer platforms than Ulverston!

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Do northern use a beacon based ASDO system or guard selection?

Fairly sure it is not beacons but it is automated in some way , is it perhaps GPS?

Presumably this is to avoid issues of a whole unit being off, thus some unable to alight even if they walk through?

6 car 331s on 4 car platforms have been the norm since introduction.

 

[Neptune]

Do northern use a beacon based ASDO system or guard selection?

The 195/331 ASDO is GPS based and the units are set up to energise only the pre-programmed doors which would be on the platform.

Guards can override the system.

 

[Nottingham59]

How much traffic is there on the Windermere branch? And what is the BCR for electrification?

The Windermere branch seems to me to be a perfect candidate for a battery EMU. With the option to transfer the BEMU to other lines when/if electrification is done later. There are plenty of lines with 4 or 6 trains per hour that would give better economic returns if they were electrified first.

 

[takno]

How much traffic is there on the Windermere branch? And what is the BCR for electrification?

The Windermere branch seems to me to be a perfect candidate for a battery EMU. With the option to transfer the BEMU to other lines when/if electrification is done later. There are plenty of lines with 4 or 6 trains per hour that would give better economic returns if they were electrified first.

Are these "plenty of other lines" only 5 miles long, single track without junctions, sited near an already-upgraded power source, and served primarily by trains which most of their journeys under wires?

There are plenty of 25-mile long double track sections which you could save more carbon on, but most of them would cost more than 10x the price and time to electrify

 

[Ken H]

Are these "plenty of other lines" only 5 miles long, single track without junctions, sited near an already-upgraded power source, and served primarily by trains which most of their journeys under wires?

There are plenty of 25-mile long double track sections which you could save more carbon on, but most of them would cost more than 10x the price and time to electrify

And a quick easy project would give the treasury the confidence to invest in more wires. After the GWML fiasco they are probably pretty risk averse.

 

[Agent_Squash]

How much traffic is there on the Windermere branch? And what is the BCR for electrification?

The Windermere branch seems to me to be a perfect candidate for a battery EMU. With the option to transfer the BEMU to other lines when/if electrification is done later. There are plenty of lines with 4 or 6 trains per hour that would give better economic returns if they were electrified first.

The Windermere branch is 1tph - but it's single track so you aren't going to get much more out of it!

It already had a BCR sufficient for electrification previously - it's only because Chris Grayling apparently discovered a love for the Lake District's outer environs that it got cancelled (or, more accurately, because the Treasury blocked further funding due to GWML cost overruns)

It is not the ideal candidate for a battery EMU. The services interwork with Barrow, as discussed previously, which may not be able to support battery EMU operation yet. And if you separated out the diagrams, you would end up with 3/4 units only - hardly worth the cost of any conversion, and it would be cheaper to put up the knitting!

It may be worth a look back through the thread as these points have already been discussed.

 

[Nottingham59]

only 5 miles long, single track without junctions, sited near an already-upgraded power source, and served primarily by trains which most of their journeys under wires?

But isn't being served by trains which spend most of their time under the wires also a good argument for Battery operation?

I do agree it would be good to get this line into the state of a "shovel ready" project and keep it in reserve, to keep an electrification team together in a pause between phases of other projects. But it's not worth diverting resources from say the TRU electrification between Leeds and York which handles multiple trains per hour.

The services interwork with Barrow, as discussed previously,

Thanks for the answers.

But if you electify Windermere, but not Barrow, how can you keep that interworking? Otherwse, you would have to keep diesels on the Windermere line too, I'd have thought.

 

[Agent_Squash]

But if you electify Windermere, but not Barrow, how can you keep that interworking? Otherwse, you would have to keep diesels on the Windermere line too, I'd have thought.

I assume it would be interworking with the Blackpool's. There are 331s available for the service - just not able to get to Windermere!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The Windermere branch seems to me to be a perfect candidate for a battery EMU. With the option to transfer the BEMU to other lines when/if electrification is done later. There are plenty of lines with 4 or 6 trains per hour that would give better economic returns if they were electrified first.

Are these "plenty of other lines" only 5 miles long, single track without junctions, sited near an already-upgraded power source, and served primarily by trains which most of their journeys under wires?

There are plenty of 25-mile long double track sections which you could save more carbon on, but most of them would cost more than 10x the price and time to electrify

And a quick easy project would give the treasury the confidence to invest in more wires. After the GWML fiasco they are probably pretty risk averse.

All great points. A quick easy win.

It already had a BCR sufficient for electrification previously - it's only because Chris Grayling apparently discovered a love for the Lake District's outer environs that it got cancelled (or, more accurately, because the Treasury blocked further funding due to GWML cost overruns)

It is not the ideal candidate for a battery EMU. The services interwork with Barrow, as discussed previously, which may not be able to support battery EMU operation yet. And if you separated out the diagrams, you would end up with 3/4 units only - hardly worth the cost of any conversion, and it would be cheaper to put up the knitting!

It may be worth a look back through the thread as these points have already been discussed.

Absolutely key point.

But isn't being served by trains which spend most of their time under the wires also a good argument for Battery operation?

I do agree it would be good to get this line into the state of a "shovel ready" project and keep it in reserve, to keep an electrification team together in a pause between phases of other projects. But it's not worth diverting resources from say the TRU electrification between Leeds and York which handles multiple trains per hour.

Agreed. Transpennine Upgrade in full and MML also must have higher priority. However, if resources do NOT have to be diverted form these programs then that would be ideal.

 

[Killingworth]

Are these "plenty of other lines" only 5 miles long, single track without junctions, sited near an already-upgraded power source, and served primarily by trains which most of their journeys under wires?

To be pedantic the Windermere branch is actually 10 miles long, the confusion is probably because only about 5 miles is within the National Park boundary.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

To be pedantic the Windermere branch is actually 10 miles long, the confusion is probably because only about 5 miles is within the National Park boundary.

Yep. National Park boundary is roughly a mile and a half beyond Burneside station (towards Staveley / Windermere) and passes near to / close to / through a smallish place on the A591 called 'Plantation Bridge'.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Agreed. Transpennine Upgrade in full and MML also must have higher priority. However, if resources do NOT have to be diverted form these programs then that would be ideal.

With not much electrification going on at the moment, you do wonder where the teams have gone...

 

[zwk500]

With not much electrification going on at the moment, you do wonder where the teams have gone...

Kettering - Market Harborough, Colton Junction - Church Fenton, Bolton - Wigan, Manchester Victoria - Stalybridge are actively being done right now, Market Harborough - Wigston Jn, Various other parts of the Transpennine Upgrade are in advanced stages of development/design and then there's all the renewals, replacements, enhancements etc on the southern MML, Newcastle-Edinburgh, etc.

 

[CdBrux]

I assume it would be interworking with the Blackpool's. There are 331s available for the service - just not able to get to Windermere!

Isn't undersdtanding the implications of this key to understanding the actual benefits of Windermere electrification. For example if it was needed to add another few train sets in order to overcome this issue then this is a negative on the business case. It's all very well in an enthusiasts way to say 'just electrify it' but the reality might be far more complex and that is what counts.

Kettering - Market Harborough, Colton Junction - Church Fenton, Bolton - Wigan, Manchester Victoria - Stalybridge are actively being done right now, Market Harborough - Wigston Jn, Various other parts of the Transpennine Upgrade are in advanced stages of development/design and then there's all the renewals, replacements, enhancements etc on the southern MML, Newcastle-Edinburgh, etc.

Plus some more in S Wales & Scotland?
These teams are hopefully also demonstrating that the days of severe cost and time overruns on a fair number of electrification projects are behind us, building confidence for the future

 

[Ken H]

Isn't undersdtanding the implications of this key to understanding the actual benefits of Windermere electrification. For example if it was needed to add another few train sets in order to overcome this issue then this is a negative on the business case. It's all very well in an enthusiasts way to say 'just electrify it' but the reality might be far more complex and that is what counts.

...

To me the benefit is to run electric trains from Manchester to Windermere. The current trains are diesels under the wires for most of their journey. Because its a short simple route the cost/benefit ration should be good. Electric trains are cheaper to maintain, and are less polluting.
Yes doing Barrow would be nice but its longer, double track with signaling that would need some sort of upgrade for electrification. SO the cost benefot ratio will be poorer.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Kettering - Market Harborough, Colton Junction - Church Fenton, Bolton - Wigan, Manchester Victoria - Stalybridge are actively being done right now, Market Harborough - Wigston Jn, Various other parts of the Transpennine Upgrade are in advanced stages of development/design and then there's all the renewals, replacements, enhancements etc on the southern MML, Newcastle-Edinburgh, etc.

Must admit I got lost in the constant stream of cancellation / pauses! oops.

Isn't undersdtanding the implications of this key to understanding the actual benefits of Windermere electrification. For example if it was needed to add another few train sets in order to overcome this issue then this is a negative on the business case. It's all very well in an enthusiasts way to say 'just electrify it' but the reality might be far more complex and that is what counts.

Northern already have the units to operate an electric Windermere service - they were included in the initial 331 order. Indeed, they added 3 195s to make up for the lack of electrification.

Now, it may be the case that they would like to have more to maintain the capacity elsewhere - sadly Northern never shared the plans for the split as the DfT cancelled the electrification before the diagramming began.

 

[zwk500]

Must admit I got lost in the constant stream of cancellation / pauses! oops.

I have to say the infrastructure section of this forum is often very good for up-to-date summaries of what's actually happening.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Kettering - Market Harborough, Colton Junction - Church Fenton, Bolton - Wigan, Manchester Victoria - Stalybridge are actively being done right now, Market Harborough - Wigston Jn, Various other parts of the Transpennine Upgrade are in advanced stages of development/design and then there's all the renewals, replacements, enhancements etc on the southern MML, Newcastle-Edinburgh, etc.

I will add this to the pinned thread.

 

[zwk500]

I will add this to the pinned thread.

I can't vouch 100% for any of it, but those are the schemes I've seen pictures of on here.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I can't vouch 100% for any of it, but those are the schemes I've seen pictures of on here.

Dont worry about that. I will do my own research and let others add/subtract from the pinned thread.

 

[Falcon1200]

For example if it was needed to add another few train sets in order to overcome this issue then this is a negative on the business case.

The line is not going to close so trains are required to operate it anyway, far better that these are clean electrics rather than dirty diesels or complex battery units with their charging infrastructure and non-compatibility with other stock.

 

[Killingworth]

If we're really serious about so much national electrification by 2030 we need more teams trained to get the work done. We need some fairly quiet stretches with simple requirements for young apprentices to cut their teeth.

Can anyone think of a fairly simple 10 miles or so that might be suitable for this?

 

[Nottingham59]

If we're really serious about so much national electrification by 2030 we need more teams trained to get the work done. We need some fairly quiet stretches with simple requirements for young apprentices to cut their teeth.

Can anyone think of a fairly simple 10 miles or so that might be suitable for this?

Bicester to Verney Junction on EWR. Feed it from the HS2 supply at Calvert and that would enable 2 tph battery trains all the way from Oxford to Bletchley and back .....

 

[Agent_Squash]

Bicester to Verney Junction on EWR. Feed it from the HS2 supply at Calvert and that would enable 2 tph battery trains all the way from Oxford to Bletchley and back .....

Isn’t that double track, so would actually be 20 track miles?

 

[Nottingham59]

Isn’t that double track

Yes it is. But cheaper to electrify per stk than single track. The length needed at Calvert depends on the maximum current you can draw, and how fast the batteries can accept charge. (e.g. The Flirt AKKU takes 20 mins to recharge giving 50 miles range. So 30 miles to Oxford and back would take 12 mins. The optimum OHLE section might therefore be Bicester Village station to Winslow Station.)