Is Heathrow Express a good use of resources?

[ChiefPlanner]

Somewhere along the line - reported that the busiest HEX had an inwards load of 45% into Paddington at the morning peak.

Using about 30% of the inwards main line peak capacity. Open Access in effect.

Value for Money - discuss ?

 

[Starmill]

Is the morning peak into Paddington the busiest time for Heathrow Express? I would have thought it would be Friday afternoons and Sunday evenings.

 

[ainsworth74]

Value for Money - discuss ?

Not even slightly. And certainly not once Crossrail is up and running to Heathrow with six trains per hour. Heathrow clearly needs a good speedy direct service to London. It does not need a non-stop service that eats up capacity and carts around fresh air.

 

[yorkie]

Is the morning peak into Paddington the busiest time for Heathrow Express? I would have thought it would be Friday afternoons and Sunday evenings.

No, but I think it could be argued that the valuable paths at prime times should be given to better loaded services.

 

[ainsworth74]

Is the morning peak into Paddington the busiest time for Heathrow Express? I would have thought it would be Friday afternoons and Sunday evenings.

But surely the point is that HeX is loading 45% whilst using a significant chunk of track capacity that could be given over to running services serving other destinations that currently suffer from overcrowded services?

 

[Failed Unit]

I have found HEX standing only in the AM peak. Which is a bit rough considering they rob you blind to travel on it.

I suspect when cross rail opens most will use it as it will provide a direct service to the city. No need to use the circle / Hammersmith and city any more.

 

[Mojo]

In my experience of having observed and travelled on Heathrow Express services they are not carting fresh air all day long. Given that the Great Western Mainline is already planned to have new services added with no real noticeable detriment to HEx timetables (eg. 4tph to Bristol, Crossrail Local services) then is it already not the case that there is available capacity for other services, but no more are further justified?

 

[Kite159]

If I was spending a couple grand on a holiday, than the extra cost of HEX wouldn't bother me. You have the luxury of being able to board the train upto 15 minutes before departure at Paddington, allowing you to take a seat on a non-stop service. Much better than crowding around Paddington low level waiting around for the correct Crossrail service to roll in, which will no doubt be crowded with a short dwell time at Paddington for you to load up with a suitcase along with everybody else heading towards Ealing. You see it with Heathrow Connect at the moment, departing Paddington rammed out only to come Hayes carrying around not a lot of passengers.

Depends which part of the country you are coming from, if you have a direct line to Crossrail then it probably makes sense to use it, but if you are arriving from the Reading direction, or from South of the River.

True money savers would use the bus.

 

[Mag_seven]

It does not need a non-stop service that eats up capacity and carts around fresh air.

Couldn't agree more - there is nothing more frustrating than being on an 125mph HST heading towards Paddington only for the brakes to come on at West Drayton as a 100mph max HEX unit gets priority. If HEX didn't exist today and someone applied to run 100mph max units every 15 mins on the 125mph fast lines into and out of Paddington they'd be laughed out of court.

 

[Failed Unit]

If I was spending a couple grand on a holiday, than the extra cost of HEX wouldn't bother me. You have the luxury of being able to board the train upto 15 minutes before departure at Paddington, allowing you to take a seat on a non-stop service. Much better than crowding around Paddington low level waiting around for the correct Crossrail service to roll in, which will no doubt be crowded with a short dwell time at Paddington for you to load up with a suitcase along with everybody else heading towards Ealing. You see it with Heathrow Connect at the moment, departing Paddington rammed out only to come Hayes carrying around not a lot of passengers.

Depends which part of the country you are coming from, if you have a direct line to Crossrail then it probably makes sense to use it, but if you are arriving from the Reading direction, or from South of the River.

True money savers would use the bus.

For interest, would you use Gatwick express for the same reason? As that one does seem a waste of capacity.

 

[Kite159]

For interest, would you use Gatwick express for the same reason? As that one does seem a waste of capacity.

Nope, as alternative services are available where the time penalty is minimal

 

[Starmill]

But surely the point is that HeX is loading 45% whilst using a significant chunk of track capacity that could be given over to running services serving other destinations that currently suffer from overcrowded services?

I would argue strongly that the oppourtunity cost of running these trains is too high yes, because it is preventing more GWML services. But that's a slightly different question from asking if they are well loaded enough to be worth running at all.

I would argue, for example, that the opportunity cost of running a pacer from Newcastle to Morpeth is so high that it'd be much better use of that path to have a 125mph intercity train in it instead. But I recognise that there are other benefits from running the very slow train, such as the need to serve Cramlington.

It also depends what you see as a good use of capacity. Do you want to carry the most people or generate the most revenue? My instinct is on the former but the government don't seem to see it that way...

Now the question of the fact that they are not using the most appropriate rolling stock is very significant if you ask me. But isn't their track access agreement expiring in a few years anyway? They may only be able to bid for relief line paths next time?

 

[Failed Unit]

Nope, as alternative services are available where the time penalty is minimal

Be interesting what happens when cross rail opens. In theory I will be able to get to Heathrow with a single change at Farringdon much better than battling the tube.

Even now on occasions I wish I had taken the Piccadilly line when I have had a bad transfer from Paddington.

It isnt really HEx I have a problem with. (Although it is expensive) it is getting to Paddington. If you lose the time saving on the transfer then I does make you think next time I will use the tube.

 

[Starmill]

A key question here too is how much will be charged for crossrail services between Hayes & Harlington and Heathrow? If it were charged at the same rate as the rest of the route that would only be £1.50 - but that's more than a 75% cut on the current fares.

 

[edwin_m]

Depends which part of the country you are coming from, if you have a direct line to Crossrail then it probably makes sense to use it, but if you are arriving from the Reading direction, or from South of the River.

In a few years time there will probably be a western link that provides direct Reading-Heathrow services, quicker than doubling back at Paddington for passengers to and from the west. There may also be a southern link giving connections via Woking and Clapham Jumction. Between those and Crossrail the demand for a fast service from Paddington is likely to drop considerably. On the other hand there will be people connecting to and from HS2 which will be the quickest route to and from places further north.

One interesting possibility is to use the four paths to run Paddington-OOC-Heathrow stations and on to Staines and beyond. As well as providing a Paddington service nearly as fast as HEX this would give access to HS2 from much of the territory to the south-west. In my view this is a much better use of the paths than the alternative of extending them to Reading via the western link, as through journeys on this train would just duplicate the GWML.

 

[Mojo]

A key question here too is how much will be charged for crossrail services between Hayes & Harlington and Heathrow? If it were charged at the same rate as the rest of the route that would only be £1.50 - but that's more than a 75% cut on the current fares.

Of course it depends on definition of “rest of the route;” at the moment Pay As You Go fares on the eastern end of the Crossrail route (currently branded as TfL Rail) charges higher fares than the western end of the Crossrail route (currently operated by Great Western but utilising the TfL farescale) for the majority of journeys.

Whilst the fare for up to 2 non-z1 zones is the same (eg. as per your example), zone 4-6 would be £1.90 if charged as per the east end Farescale.

 

[Ianno87]

Couldn't agree more - there is nothing more frustrating than being on an 125mph HST heading towards Paddington only for the brakes to come on at West Drayton as a 100mph max HEX unit gets priority. If HEX didn't exist today and someone applied to run 100mph max units every 15 mins on the 125mph fast lines into and out of Paddington they'd be laughed out of court.

Function of the access rights being agreed/granted in the mid-90s when there was genuine capacity, and little expectation of growth that soon followed post-privatisation.

In my experience of having observed and travelled on Heathrow Express services they are not carting fresh air all day long. Given that the Great Western Mainline is already planned to have new services added with no real noticeable detriment to HEx timetables (eg. 4tph to Bristol, Crossrail Local services) then is it already not the case that there is available capacity for other services, but no more are further justified?

My recollection is that the high peak Up Main line service into Paddington today (19 trains per hour in the busiest hour 0745-0844) doesn't materially change with IEP.

However the use of those paths is changing, with IEPs having higher capacity than HSTs, 8-car 387s replacing 5-car Turbos, etc, giving a medium term capacity boost. So HEx is fine for the time being.

However, various documents (e.g. Western Route Study) says that more Main Line capacity inwards from Reading is needed longer-term. Whether that's 24tph enabled through enhanced signalling capability or re-allocating the current HEx paths remains to be seen...

Alternatively, if you were looking at railways as a pure business when it comes to allocating capacity, the current commercial return on HEx paths (in terms of revenue generated per passenger mile) must give alot of Season Ticket-filled GWR services that have lost most of their passengers west of Swindon a run for their money...

 

[Starmill]

Of course it depends on definition of “rest of the route;” at the moment Pay As You Go fares on the eastern end of the Crossrail route (currently branded as TfL Rail) charges higher fares than the western end of the Crossrail route (currently operated by Great Western but utilising the TfL farescale) for the majority of journeys.

Whilst the fare for up to 2 non-z1 zones is the same (eg. as per your example), zone 4-6 would be £1.90 if charged as per the east end Farescale.

I agree, the West Anglia fare scale is something that surprised me when it was introduced. I was merely choosing the most extreme example journey where what would most likely be a z 5-6 trip on Oyster or Contactless costs £6.30 at preset on a paper ticket.

Keeping the higher rate between 3 or more non zone 1 Great Eastern zones than between 3 or more non zone 1 Great Western zones does not seem to make sense to me. But maybe it does to someone else.

 

[cactustwirly]

You haven't to remember that the HEx paths don't necessarily extend beyond Airport junction, for example during the peaks a Maidenhead fast is pathed just infront, therefore a 125mph IET/HST will just catch up with it after airport junction.

Therefore I believe that it is an efficient use of resources since that 2tph would be useless for any other service on the mains

 

[yorkie]

It is very true that, westbound at least, the pathing is designed in such a way there is no waste of capacity.

The problem is eastbound; the reality is that you are never going to get every train that has come from far flung places to appear at Airport Junction at precisely the right time, and it is a waste of energy and causes further delay to hundreds of passengers to have to slam on the brakes because Heathrow Express seems to get priority.

 

[Joe Paxton]

A key question here too is how much will be charged for crossrail services between Hayes & Harlington and Heathrow? If it were charged at the same rate as the rest of the route that would only be £1.50 - but that's more than a 75% cut on the current fares.

I haven't followed this issue lately, but I thought it had been more or less established that Crossrail fares to Heathrow would not follow a zonal farescale (i.e. neither the TfL mode nor the NR mode farescale) but it would be a Gatwick or Watford Junction style special fare for pay-as-you-go purposes - I've got some idea this was what was stated in a TfL Board Meeting paper on the issue some time back (bearing in mind the line from H&H to the airport is owned by HAL). Of course I may be misremembering or misinterpreting something, and the situation could have changed since.

Obviously if this does happen it'll be a shame, but I can see a degree of inevitability about it - and even with a premium fare of some sort, if reasonable enough (i.e. not at HEx levels), then Crossrail would likely remain an attractive choice for many.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Somewhere along the line - reported that the busiest HEX had an inwards load of 45% into Paddington at the morning peak.

Using about 30% of the inwards main line peak capacity. Open Access in effect.

Value for Money - discuss ?

I think there's a good chance that Crossrail could render it redundant. If it does, the paths would be better used for additional 12-car EMU Padd-Slough-Reading fasts, allowing commuters to be encouraged off the HSTs and reducing overcrowding.

 

[BluePenguin]

I haven't followed this issue lately, but I thought it had been more or less established that Crossrail fares to Heathrow would not follow a zonal farescale (i.e. neither the TfL mode nor the NR mode farescale) but it would be a Gatwick or Watford Junction style special fare for pay-as-you-go purposes - I've got some idea this was what was stated in a TfL Board Meeting paper on the issue some time back (bearing in mind the line from H&H to the airport is owned by HAL). Of course I may be misremembering or misinterpreting something, and the situation could have changed since.

Obviously if this does happen it'll be a shame, but I can see a degree of inevitability about it - and even with a premium fare of some sort, if reasonable enough (i.e. not at HEx levels), then Crossrail would likely remain an attractive choice for many.

That is a shame to hear. Oh well. I will carry on avoiding Heathrow whenever I can and stick to Gatwick instead. The Heathrow Express is awful value for money. For the same price as a return I could book a cheap flight to Europe or buy a train ticket all the way home from another airport. I would like to know who these people are who use the Heathrow Express as they clearly have too much money and not enough sense.

Heathrow has always had the label of the "expensive" (sorry, "premium") airport but it is nothing special really. I have never known anybody to use it unless they have to, such as if they are flying to America or Australia. I suppose it is useful for lazy people living in London who want to have a lie in before their flight and then casually catch the express or underground to the airport feeling well rested. Other than that there is little appeal really.

The one huge improvement Heathrow needs is better connectivity with the 55 million of us that don't live in London and the rest of the railway network. Crossrail is (or was) a fantastic opportunity to make seamless journeys possible from anywhere. But with news of no simplified fares, bad news of more premium rubbish fares and no new simple connections, people will continue to be put off with the hassle of Heathrow. People try to avoid the hassle of the underground if they can let alone Crossrail and the complicated fares. This is the last thing we need.

 

[yorkie]

.... I would like to know who these people are who use the Heathrow Express....

• Business users
• Wealthy people
• People who book far in advance (price is not too bad 90 days in advance with a Railcard)

The one huge improvement Heathrow needs is better connectivity with the 55 million of us that don't live in London and the rest of the railway network. Crossrail is (or was) a fantastic opportunity to make seamless journeys possible from anywhere. But with news of no simplified fares, bad news of more premium rubbish fares and no new simple connections, people will continue to be put off with the hassle of Heathrow. People try to avoid the hassle of the underground if they can let alone Crossrail and the complicated fares. This is the last thing we need.

It will be seamless. It may not be the price it should be, but people will pay.

 

[Starmill]

I am sure it will be easy for people coming from another PAYG station, just as travel to Gatwick Airport is now easy for such people, even if it is unbelievably costly. e.g. how much balance do you think you'd need on your card to travel from Stratford International to Gatwick Airport via London Victoria and back again

However, for someone from a non-PAYG station (i.e. almost everyone) then it will probably not change.

Also as children now travel for free, a group with a large number of children may find Heathrow Express is their cheapest option.

 

[theageofthetra]

I travelled many times on HEX a few years ago mystery shopping it.

The loadings in first/business class are high an hour or so London bound after the 6am Heathrow stack flights start landing.

Standard is fairly busy throughout the day certainly seems busier than Gatex.

Another factor is some sizeable firms in the US instruct their executives that if travelling solo to use HEX to Paddington and then cab to a hotel or meeting from there due to the rip of cab fares from the airport.

 

[jon0844]

It is very true that, westbound at least, the pathing is designed in such a way there is no waste of capacity.

The problem is eastbound; the reality is that you are never going to get every train that has come from far flung places to appear at Airport Junction at precisely the right time, and it is a waste of energy and causes further delay to hundreds of passengers to have to slam on the brakes because Heathrow Express seems to get priority.

Given there's perhaps less urgency to get to London compared to a flight, I wonder why eastbound trains are given priority? There's quite a long turnaround at PAD.

 

[Bantamzen]

If I was spending a couple grand on a holiday, than the extra cost of HEX wouldn't bother me. You have the luxury of being able to board the train upto 15 minutes before departure at Paddington, allowing you to take a seat on a non-stop service. Much better than crowding around Paddington low level waiting around for the correct Crossrail service to roll in, which will no doubt be crowded with a short dwell time at Paddington for you to load up with a suitcase along with everybody else heading towards Ealing. You see it with Heathrow Connect at the moment, departing Paddington rammed out only to come Hayes carrying around not a lot of passengers.

Depends which part of the country you are coming from, if you have a direct line to Crossrail then it probably makes sense to use it, but if you are arriving from the Reading direction, or from South of the River.

True money savers would use the bus.

A couple of years ago my wife and did an expensive trip to Hawai'i, flying from Heathrow to LA on the first major leg. I costed up coming from Leeds into London, then onto Heathrow via the HEx, but it was cheaper to fly from LBA and stay overnight at The Thistle hotel. Still gave me an excuse to use the Heathrow Pod a couple of times.

I guess for people willing to pay extra to get to Heathrow quickly HEx still has a market, but I suppose the timings of Crossrail might have an impact. How long is it expected to take from Heathrow into central London?

 

[route:oxford]

The trouble is we are looking at this as things are today.

Roll back 20 years to the time when Heathrow Express started operations:-

Paddington was consideraby quieter.
It was still possible to take a peak HST from Oxford to London in under 50 minutes.
There was no such thing as a 125mph multiple unit.

But probably most important of all:-

Reading was at capacity.

 

[al78]

I would like to know who these people are who use the Heathrow Express as they clearly have too much money and not enough sense.

People think that after paying £1000 or more for a holiday, paying a bit more for a fast service into London is no big deal. Some people appreciate speed, and getting things done quickly in the SE is a rare luxury these days.

Business users will be claiming travel expenses so the cost is immaterial to them, unless their employer insists they have to travel by the most financially econoical means.