• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Is (or was) Milton Keynes considered to be in Buckinghamshire?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
29,070
Last edited by a moderator:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

gallafent

Member
Joined
23 Dec 2010
Messages
517
Strictly speaking, MK isn’t in Buckinghamshire and wasn’t at any point when the Connex / Southern services operated from there to Gatwick.

Really? Although from a local government perspective it now has its own unitary authority, it's still “in Buckinghamshire” surely? (If not, where is it?! ;) … (Likewise, Bedford is still in Bedfordshire, even after the switch to unitaries means it isn't in “Central Bedfordshire”, instead being in the “Borough of Bedford” …). In other words, being in a county or not is separate from being in a particular local authority which happens to have the same boundaries as that county … maybe?


Milton Keynes (/kiːnz/ ( About this sound listen) KEENZ) (locally abbreviated to MK) is a large townhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_Keynes#cite_note-6 in Buckinghamshire, England, about 50 miles (80 km) north-west of London.

[…]
The responsible local government is Milton Keynes Council, which controls the Borough of Milton Keynes, a Unitary Authority (and, in law, a non-metropolitan county) since May 1996.[164] Until then, it was controlled by Buckinghamshire County Council.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
29,070
As I said, strictly speaking, MK isn’t in Buckinghamshire. It may be geographically in a location that was within the county boundary of Buckinghamshire, but it certainly isn’t now.
 

gallafent

Member
Joined
23 Dec 2010
Messages
517
As I said, strictly speaking, MK isn’t in Buckinghamshire. It may be geographically in a location that was within the county boundary of Buckinghamshire, but it certainly isn’t now.

Would be interested to see the reaction if you made that “correction” to wikipedia :). As far as I can tell it is straightforwardly incorrect.


[…]
Buckinghamshire is one of the home counties
[…]
The largest town is Milton Keynes in the northeast, which with the surrounding area is administered as a unitary authority separately to the rest of Buckinghamshire.

To suggest that MK isn't in Buckinghamshire is to conflate counties with local authority areas.

— diverting the conversation from the “home counties” to the structure of local government within those counties is misdirection I think.
 
Last edited:

Hadders

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
27 Apr 2011
Messages
12,980
Until the 1990s review of local government boundaries Milton Keynes was part of Buckinghamshire. There was a two-tier system of local government with both Buckinghamshire County Council and Milton Keynes Borough Council providing services.

Following reorganisation a Milton Keynes unitary authority was established which provides all local government services across Milton Keynes. The rest of Buckinghamshire remained as a two-tier system until earlier this year when a unitary authority, called Buckinghamshire Council, was set up to provide all local Government services in this area.

Milton Keynes retains its own unitary authority but it is part of the ceremonial county of Buckinghamshire.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
23,224
Location
Bolton
This sounds like a similar argument to Blackburn with Darwen not being in Lancashire because it's not administered by Lancashire County Council. Try telling someone who lives there it's no longer Lancashire!
 

NorthOxonian

Established Member
Associate Staff
Buses & Coaches
Joined
5 Jul 2018
Messages
1,483
Location
Oxford/Newcastle
It's part of ceremonial Buckinghamshire, though I've personally (based on the feel of the place, local connections, and even footballing rivalries) seen it as more Northamptonshire.

It is bizzare that it gets classed as part of the "South East" region - meaning that it's not in the same region as Luton, Bedford, or Northampton, but it is in the same region as Hastings, Dover, or Margate. There really should be a "South Midlands" region, since there is a clear band from Banbury/Daventry/MK across Northamptonshire to Peterborough and Bedford which is distinct from the more commuter territory to its south but also distinct from the big Midlands towns/cities.
 

Hadders

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
27 Apr 2011
Messages
12,980
I used to work in Olney which is a lovely little town, officially part of the Milton Keynes unitary authority. The locals there go spare if you suggest they live in Milton Keynes - it's North Bucks to them. Same for Newport Pagnell.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,540
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Personally I have always considered Milton Keynes to be Bedfordshire

You would be completely wrong, then, because it is not and never has been so.

It was in Buckinghamshire initially (the border to Northamptonshire being just to the north, indeed cutting through between Stony and Old Stratford, and to Bedfordshire being somewhere roughly where the M1 is). There are still some signs knocking around on smaller roads fitting with this, welcoming you to "The Borough and New City[1] of Milton Keynes". However, it has later become a unitary authority, but is still in the "ceremonial" County in the manner of say Blackpool being unitary but still considered geographically in Lancashire.

[1] Noting that the term "New City", as distinct from "City" alone, does not imply city status, it's a term used by the Commission for the New Towns to mean "big new town".
 

D365

Veteran Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
11,396
Personally I have always considered Milton Keynes to be Bedfordshire

I used to drive to Milton Keynes using the A421 and M1. Not sure if it's between Junctions 13 and 14, or somewhere else, but there is definitely a "Welcome to Buckinghamshire" sign along the way.
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,215
I used to drive to Milton Keynes using the A421 and M1. Not sure if it's between Junctions 13 and 14, or somewhere else, but there is definitely a "Welcome to Buckinghamshire" sign along the way.

It's roughly at the point where the A421 diverges from its parallel running with the M1 to head into MK.

Also the "Bedfordshire" part of the A421 has never been dualled, but the MK/Bucks part has.
 

D365

Veteran Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
11,396
It's roughly at the point where the A421 diverges from its parallel running with the M1 to head into MK.

Also the "Bedfordshire" part of the A421 has never been dualled, but the MK/Bucks part has.

Thanks. I haven't been to Milton Keynes since January, so don't know what the state of play is now. But that short stretch of single carriageway was in the process of (finally) being doubled!
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,540
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
It's roughly at the point where the A421 diverges from its parallel running with the M1 to head into MK.

Also the "Bedfordshire" part of the A421 has never been dualled, but the MK/Bucks part has.

Being done now. About 20 years after it should have been :)

(Before it was, there was a difference in road surface quality at the boundary line though I forget which was better)
 

Merle Haggard

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2019
Messages
1,979
Location
Northampton
One of the effects of what was formerly north Buckinghamshire becoming Milton Keynes unitary authority is that the population usually quoted for 'Milton Keynes' is that of the whole of what was North Bucks, including towns like Newport Pagnell. The web suggests that the unitary authority has a population of 248,000 and the New City of Milton Keynes itself, 192,000
On the other hand, the population quoted for Northampton (195,000) is solely for the borough and excludes similarly nearby towns such as Wellingborough and Daventry.
As far as passenger rail goes, Northampton is always treated as some unimportant small town not worthy of anything more than all-station local trains, whereas Milton Keynes is given an hourly Inter City type service to many destinations to the North. Perhaps this is because the relative sizes are not fully understood.
 

Hadders

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
27 Apr 2011
Messages
12,980
The reason Northampton has a poor service to the north has more to do with its its location on the loop, compared to MK's position on the mainline.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,540
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
One of the effects of what was formerly north Buckinghamshire becoming Milton Keynes unitary authority is that the population usually quoted for 'Milton Keynes' is that of the whole of what was North Bucks, including towns like Newport Pagnell. The web suggests that the unitary authority has a population of 248,000 and the New City of Milton Keynes itself, 192,000

Newport Pagnell is as much part of MK as Bletchley is, or as the various "villages" that make up London are part of that.

There are separate villages - Olney, Hanslope (or is that in Northants?) etc.

As far as passenger rail goes, Northampton is always treated as some unimportant small town not worthy of anything more than all-station local trains, whereas Milton Keynes is given an hourly Inter City type service to many destinations to the North. Perhaps this is because the relative sizes are not fully understood.

Operational convenience because the fast lines happen to pass through it, as are most stops at relatively small places on major InterCity routes - such as the reason Atherstone has a direct London service but much larger Bolton doesn't.
 

xotGD

Established Member
Joined
4 Feb 2017
Messages
6,063
As I said, strictly speaking, MK isn’t in Buckinghamshire. It may be geographically in a location that was within the county boundary of Buckinghamshire, but it certainly isn’t now.
By that argument York isn't in Yorkshire, Leicester isn't in Leicestershire and Nottingham isn't in Nottinghamshire.

And I can't see many folk thinking that.
 

radamfi

Established Member
Joined
29 Oct 2009
Messages
9,267
Most arguments can be sorted by looking at urban area populations, which have been carefully computed by the ONS, so you don't have to worry about where boundaries lie.
 

upasalmon

On Moderation
Joined
4 Jun 2020
Messages
161
Location
Merseyside
Yorkshire is divided into North, West, South and East(previously North Humberside). The ceremonial county was divided into Ridings (or thirds). There is difference between ADMINISTRATIVE or CEREMONIAL areas. The Royal Mail doesn't recognise Greater Manchester as a postal address so the surrounding towns are still classed as Lancashire and Cheshire.
 

CarltonA

Member
Joined
22 Apr 2012
Messages
708
Location
Thames Valley
Interestingly (unless I've got this wrong) MK is the only place in Bucks (or not) with a Buckinghamshire postcode. The rest of the county seems to be divided between Slough (now Berks) Luton (Beds) Hemel Hempstead (Herts) Uxbridge (Middx, now London) and Oxford.
 

Hadders

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
27 Apr 2011
Messages
12,980
There are separate villages - Olney, Hanslope (or is that in Northants?) etc.

Hanslope is in Milton Keynes Unitary.

Don’t say to anyone who comes from Olney that it is a village. I made that mistake once and was swiftly put in my place....

Greater Manchester as a postal address so the surrounding towns are still classed as Lancashire and Cheshire.

Counties do not form part of Royal Mail postal addresses. All that is needed is the post town.

Royal Mail won’t prevent you from quoting a county on an address but it plays absolution part in the routeing of mail.
 

radamfi

Established Member
Joined
29 Oct 2009
Messages
9,267
Yorkshire is divided into North, West, South and East(previously North Humberside). The ceremonial county was divided into Ridings (or thirds). There is difference between ADMINISTRATIVE or CEREMONIAL areas. The Royal Mail doesn't recognise Greater Manchester as a postal address so the surrounding towns are still classed as Lancashire and Cheshire.

There are ceremonial, non-metropolitan, metropolitan and historic counties which are clearly defined in Wikipedia. The Ridings were subdivisions of the historic county of Yorkshire. The ceremonial counties in Yorkshire are North Yorkshire, South Yorkshire, West Yorkshire and East Riding of Yorkshire. The metropolitan counties are West Yorkshire and South Yorkshire. The non-metropolitan counties are North Yorkshire, East Riding of Yorkshire, Kingston upon Hull, City of York, Redcar and Cleveland, Middlesbrough and some of Stockton-on-Tees.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
29,070
By that argument York isn't in Yorkshire, Leicester isn't in Leicestershire and Nottingham isn't in Nottinghamshire.

And I can't see many folk thinking that.

Well when I lived in York, I was from York, not Yorkshire. Except when talking to Yanks, then I had to say I was from York, England, or occasionally ‘Old York’.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,540
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Interestingly (unless I've got this wrong) MK is the only place in Bucks (or not) with a Buckinghamshire postcode. The rest of the county seems to be divided between Slough (now Berks) Luton (Beds) Hemel Hempstead (Herts) Uxbridge (Middx, now London) and Oxford.

Postcodes are solely a means of routeing mail and have no bearing on where a place is.
 

paul1609

Established Member
Joined
28 Jan 2006
Messages
7,189
Location
Wittersham Kent
It's part of ceremonial Buckinghamshire, though I've personally (based on the feel of the place, local connections, and even footballing rivalries) seen it as more Northamptonshire.

It is bizzare that it gets classed as part of the "South East" region - meaning that it's not in the same region as Luton, Bedford, or Northampton, but it is in the same region as Hastings, Dover, or Margate. There really should be a "South Midlands" region, since there is a clear band from Banbury/Daventry/MK across Northamptonshire to Peterborough and Bedford which is distinct from the more commuter territory to its south but also distinct from the big Midlands towns/cities.
Personally i think what is needed is a South Coast Region or preferably an independent Kent.
We certainly don't want to be associated with Essex and places further north and even Sussex with its cowardly reputation in conflicts 1066 etc is pushing it.
 

etr221

Member
Joined
10 Mar 2018
Messages
1,037
Postcodes are solely a means of routeing mail and have no bearing on where a place is.
Indeed, they cannot tell you whether somewhere is in England or Scotland (see TD9 0TU, which covers the two farms English Kershope and Scotch Kershope, each the appropriate side of the border).
 

eMeS

Member
Joined
12 Jun 2011
Messages
954
Location
Milton Keynes, UK
Surely the real insult in this area is that the neighbouring county town of Bedford has Milton Keynes postcodes e.g. MK42 9DJ for Bedford Hospital, South Wing.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,540
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Surely the real insult in this area is that the neighbouring county town of Bedford has Milton Keynes postcodes e.g. MK42 9DJ for Bedford Hospital, South Wing.

Why do people get het up about postcodes? It happens all over the place and it is nonsensical.

The purpose of postcodes is for the Royal Mail to route mail. They have no other formal purpose. Therefore, the postcode you get is based on which way your mail is routed, not where you are, nor where you are associated with.

Anyone who reads additional things into them, gets het up about them being "insulting", or uses them for another purpose, is doing it off their own back.

They no more identify where you live in "association" terms than your broadband IP address does.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top