Is the public transport in Latvia better than the UK?

[miklcct]

I visited Latvia back in 2018 and travelled across the country by trains and buses, including to somewhere very rural far away from settlements.

My impression was that the trains there was very cheap, less than 10€ to travel for hundreds of km, and despite having a very old system with only Soviet-era diesel trains, the trains were still faster than road transport as the country has no motorways. The trains were cheaper than buses as well, but the buses were much more frequent with a wider coverage. I could see buses running every hour, stopping through the middle of nowhere (which I used these stops) between major towns / cities, as long as there was an A road there was good bus service.

In the UK, I can't believe that even two neighbouring towns linked by an A-road but not the railway can have no bus service between them on some days.

Can anyone with better understanding of Latvian public transport system tell me if my impression is fact or not? Is the public transport there really better than the UK?

 

[The exile]

Quick research suggests average incomes around 1/3 of UK levels….

 

[yorksrob]

So would we be able to travel hundreds of miles for 3 times ten Euros in this country.

Value for money is often a flaw with our system.

 

[Gareth]

Considering how much smaller Latvia is, it's probably quite a bit easier to make sure most neighbouring towns are linked by rail.

 

[dutchflyer]

This is more or less similar to all former soviet-block countries. Plus that LV has a very low population density and is even also much declining in people-also as many have found better paid jobs in the west-or even closer by in Poland.
The result of many years of centralised planning, very cheap and accessible bus/trains (yes, trains have traditionally always been cheaper there) and few and bad too roads. Of course in the last 33 years this has much improved and changed, but the basics remain in force.
If that is better as in your island-I leave that to you. Price is by far not the only determining factor.
Before that war started in Ukrayna, where I have much and everywhere experience in travelling around on my own with that different alfabet was even more so-except that the buses there were lately all those nasty overcrowded marshrut=minibuses.
In fact-another country I know very well (if I may say so) Thailand-in ASEAN-could also precisely fit your description-untill covid hit and the buses became f.e. from ev 15/20 mins to now once per 2 hr. But then noone would say THailand has better transport as here.

 

[The exile]

So would we be able to travel hundreds of miles for 3 times ten Euros in this country.

Value for money is often a flaw with our system.

Looking at the 2019 European Rail TT (which I accept is neither really up to date nor comprehensive), I see 4 lines on which you can travel something which could be described as hundreds of kilometres from Riga. Valga has 2 trains per day (3 hrs for 170km), Daugavpils 6 (2-3 hrs for 218) and Zilupe 4 (5 hours for 279km). Liepaja (223 km in 3 hrs) has 1 a week.

 

[miklcct]

Looking at the 2019 European Rail TT (which I accept is neither really up to date nor comprehensive), I see 4 lines on which you can travel something which could be described as hundreds of kilometres from Riga. Valga has 2 trains per day (3 hrs for 170km), Daugavpils 6 (2-3 hrs for 218) and Zilupe 4 (5 hours for 279km). Liepaja (223 km in 3 hrs) has 1 a week.

That's true, but the buses are much more frequent and I have heard that it's the more preferred mode of travel in the country despite being more expensive than trains.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I visited Latvia back in 2018 and travelled across the country by trains and buses, including to somewhere very rural far away from settlements.

My impression was that the trains there was very cheap, less than 10€ to travel for hundreds of km, and despite having a very old system with only Soviet-era diesel trains, the trains were still faster than road transport as the country has no motorways. The trains were cheaper than buses as well, but the buses were much more frequent with a wider coverage. I could see buses running every hour, stopping through the middle of nowhere (which I used these stops) between major towns / cities, as long as there was an A road there was good bus service.

In the UK, I can't believe that even two neighbouring towns linked by an A-road but not the railway can have no bus service between them on some days.

Can anyone with better understanding of Latvian public transport system tell me if my impression is fact or not? Is the public transport there really better than the UK?

However it's not good for cross-border rail travel. The through service on the line linking the 3 Baltic states (and onwards to Poland), which I used for a direct Tallinn-Warsaw service years back, was ended after the Baltic states joined the EU. One of a number of instances of international rail connections getting worse when countries joined the EU.

 

[yorksrob]

Looking at the 2019 European Rail TT (which I accept is neither really up to date nor comprehensive), I see 4 lines on which you can travel something which could be described as hundreds of kilometres from Riga. Valga has 2 trains per day (3 hrs for 170km), Daugavpils 6 (2-3 hrs for 218) and Zilupe 4 (5 hours for 279km). Liepaja (223 km in 3 hrs) has 1 a week.

So I guess a four hour journey here would be something like Waterloo to Exeter or Hull to Liverpool. You'd not get that for anywhere near 20E.

 

[RT4038]

So I guess a four hour journey here would be something like Waterloo to Exeter or Hull to Liverpool. You'd not get that for anywhere near 20E.

Looking at the Latvian Railways website, the Riga-Zilupe fare is 8.09E 279kms in 4.5 hours, 2 trains per day. Wages being one third of those here (which I know is only a crude measure), makes an equivalent 24.27E (£20.48). Had a quick look and found advance tickets for £16.70 from Waterloo to Exeter travelling in 10 days time, on more frequent trains taking 25% less time for the journey.

It is well known that our trains can be more expensive, but for faster and more frequent services. Comparisons are a bit difficult, because it is usually apples with pears!

 

[rg177]

The trains are exceptionally cheap to be fair and I've never had an issue using them but I certainly wouldn't swap them out for what we have in the UK.

Frequencies are extremely variable as some lines are consistently hourly (such as to Jelgava) but then you have Liepaja with a couple per week.

I'll be travelling from Riga to Tallinn in a couple of weeks by train and I'm very much looking forward to it.

 

[miklcct]

Looking at the Latvian Railways website, the Riga-Zilupe fare is 8.09E 279kms in 4.5 hours, 2 trains per day. Wages being one third of those here (which I know is only a crude measure), makes an equivalent 24.27E (£20.48). Had a quick look and found advance tickets for £16.70 from Waterloo to Exeter travelling in 10 days time, on more frequent trains taking 25% less time for the journey.

It is well known that our trains can be more expensive, but for faster and more frequent services. Comparisons are a bit difficult, because it is usually apples with pears!

You should compare the walk up fare instead!

 

[yorksrob]

Looking at the Latvian Railways website, the Riga-Zilupe fare is 8.09E 279kms in 4.5 hours, 2 trains per day. Wages being one third of those here (which I know is only a crude measure), makes an equivalent 24.27E (£20.48). Had a quick look and found advance tickets for £16.70 from Waterloo to Exeter travelling in 10 days time, on more frequent trains taking 25% less time for the journey.

It is well known that our trains can be more expensive, but for faster and more frequent services. Comparisons are a bit difficult, because it is usually apples with pears!

To be honest, I find the advanced purchase requirement to stick to a particular train so onerous most of the time, that I don't see it as a valid comparison (though if there are only two trains a day, that does somewhat limit your options anyway).

 

[pemma]

I only used buses when I visited Riga but they were modern, cheap and all had automated next stop announcements.

Quick research suggests average incomes around 1/3 of UK levels….

Are you trying to suggest public transport is cheaper in Latvia because the drivers and other staff are paid less? Payroll is one of the biggest expenses of any transport operator but they still have to acquire the vehicles and power them.

 

[zwk500]

You should compare the walk up fare instead!

Why? the majority of people travelling more than 200Km/4 hours won't be doing it without some level of forward planning. Looking at the fare available 7-14 days out is a perfectly reasonable comparison to make.

However if it was a <100km/1-1.5hour trip, (i.e. afternoon out in the nearest city) then the walk-up would be more appropriate.

 

[edwin_m]

You should compare the walk up fare instead!

In the Zilupe example quoted, there are only two trains per day, so you pretty much have to plan for a specific one and the Advance is probably the more realistic comparison.

 

[miklcct]

In the Zilupe example quoted, there are only two trains per day, so you pretty much have to plan for a specific one and the Advance is probably the more realistic comparison.

Why? the majority of people travelling more than 200Km/4 hours won't be doing it without some level of forward planning. Looking at the fare available 7-14 days out is a perfectly reasonable comparison to make.

However if it was a <100km/1-1.5hour trip, (i.e. afternoon out in the nearest city) then the walk-up would be more appropriate.

In this case the reasonable comparison will be the advance purchase fare 1-2 day ahead, or in the morning for the afternoon train, not 7-14 days.

A 200 km trip (e.g. London - Wareham) is a typical weekend out, which is normally planned in the week, not 7-14 days ahead.

 

[zwk500]

In this case the reasonable comparison will be the advance purchase fare 1-2 day ahead, or in the morning for the afternoon train, not 7-14 days.

A 200 km trip (e.g. London - Wareham) is a typical weekend out, which is normally planned in the week, not 7-14 days ahead.

A typical weekend out (i.e. including an overnight stay) would not normally be planned 4/5 days in advance, you'd be leaving yourself hostage to hotels upping their prices or not being available at all. 200KM from London in a direct line gets you further than Weymouth, Bristol, Birmingham, Derby, and Nottingham. Do people from Exeter, Cardiff, Manchester and Leeds really decide to go to London for leisure at the last minute?

 

[AlbertBeale]

A typical weekend out (i.e. including an overnight stay) would not normally be planned 4/5 days in advance, you'd be leaving yourself hostage to hotels upping their prices or not being available at all. 200KM from London in a direct line gets you further than Weymouth, Bristol, Birmingham, Derby, and Nottingham. Do people from Exeter, Cardiff, Manchester and Leeds really decide to go to London for leisure at the last minute?

Maybe not for leisure, but for other sudden reasons sometimes.

 

[zwk500]

Maybe not for leisure, but for other sudden reasons sometimes.

Yes, but the fares can't be set for every case under the sun, especially when making comparisons between different countries that have very different travel patterns and cultures!

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, but the fares can't be set for every case under the sun, especially when making comparisons between different countries that have very different travel patterns and cultures!

Yes, but the reason we have our over-commercialised way of running things is more down to political dogma than "culture".

 

[Bletchleyite]

A typical weekend out (i.e. including an overnight stay) would not normally be planned 4/5 days in advance, you'd be leaving yourself hostage to hotels upping their prices or not being available at all. 200KM from London in a direct line gets you further than Weymouth, Bristol, Birmingham, Derby, and Nottingham. Do people from Exeter, Cardiff, Manchester and Leeds really decide to go to London for leisure at the last minute?

They might - I certainly have when I lived up north - but only for a day trip.

 

[miklcct]

A typical weekend out (i.e. including an overnight stay) would not normally be planned 4/5 days in advance, you'd be leaving yourself hostage to hotels upping their prices or not being available at all. 200KM from London in a direct line gets you further than Weymouth, Bristol, Birmingham, Derby, and Nottingham. Do people from Exeter, Cardiff, Manchester and Leeds really decide to go to London for leisure at the last minute?

I've read that the Dorset coast is about the furthest for a viable day trip out of London, which is about 180 km in straight line. The Network Railcard area is approximately the range where a day out from London is viable, which people don't plan ahead.

I've definitely heard that people go for Devon and Cornwall for a weekend out, for example, Friday evening - Sunday evening.

 

[RT4038]

Yes, but the reason we have our over-commercialised way of running things is more down to political dogma than "culture".

Our politics (and political dogmas) are part of our culture.

I only used buses when I visited Riga but they were modern, cheap and all had automated next stop announcements.



Are you trying to suggest public transport is cheaper in Latvia because the drivers and other staff are paid less? Payroll is one of the biggest expenses of any transport operator but they still have to acquire the vehicles and power them.

If the staff operating them, and the people buying the tickets, are paid a third less than us, then it would be (crudely) reasonable to expect the fares to be reflective of this. Subsidies may also be higher of course.

 

[zwk500]

Our politics (and political dogmas) are part of our culture.

To clarify I meant travelling culture, I.e. the types of journeys we make, the factors we consider important or not, and how we approach travelling. Not culture in the wider sense.

 

[pemma]

Subsidies may also be higher of course.

But less income means less tax and less tax means their government won't have as much money for subsiding services (rail or otherwise).

Of note Latvians, on average, work longer working weeks than us so it's likely their rail workers work longer hours for less pay than their UK counterparts.

I would question whether the average office or retail worker is really paid 1/3 less, or whether having fewer HQs for big international businesses lowers the average.

 

[30907]

So I guess a four hour journey here would be something like Waterloo to Exeter or Hull to Liverpool. You'd not get that for anywhere near 20E.

A better comparison would be a journey of equivalent length, speed and frequency combined. Something like the Far North, for example (Anytime Return ca. 13p/mile) compares with the Latvian fare of about 3ct/km or about 4p/mile so not far off that 3:1 ratio.

 

[The exile]

I only used buses when I visited Riga but they were modern, cheap and all had automated next stop announcements.



Are you trying to suggest public transport is cheaper in Latvia because the drivers and other staff are paid less? Payroll is one of the biggest expenses of any transport operator but they still have to acquire the vehicles and power them.

No - merely that a comparison of fares in isolation doesn't tell the whole story.