Is there any eligibility for a refund/delay repay if your service is changed prior to departure?

ivorytoast28

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Hello,

I'm mostly curious because I booked an advance LNER&Connections ticket from London to Bridlington changing at Doncaster.

This was scheduled to take 3hr25mins and include 1 stop at the time of booking, 1 month ago

However, Northern have since changed their schedule and this now requires 2 changes including an hour wait at Hull as Northern seem to no longer run a direct Sheffield-Bridlington service.

As such my journey will now be 1hr 3mins longer than the itinerary shown in LNER's "my bookings". They haven't informed me of this and if I hadn't searched on nationalrail I'd still be expecting to take a direct train on the day and as such my journey would be delayed by over an hour.

I contacted LNER as this means despite leaving london at 15:35 I will now be taking the last train of the day with just a 12 minute connection at doncaster. I simply asked for a refund so I could book via York and Scarborough instead to which they refused and said should I miss my connection they'd arrange a taxi from Doncaster to Bridlington, which to me seems insane for a ticket that cost me £11 they'll pay a taxi fare for a 62 mile journey, but I know that is the normal conditions.

But, essentially my journey is going to take 1hr and 3 minutes longer than advertised. If this happened due to delays on the day I would be entitled to delay repay? Is there nothing similar in this situation where the itinerary has changed but the customer is neither informed and even when noticed by myself ignored?

I'm asking mostly out of curiosity, I have all the time in the world and don't care if they connections work, but it seems strange they;d rather risk a massive taxi fee over a mildly delayed train than let me move to a service via york i said i'd pay extra for
 
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yorkie

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As you already bought your ticket, you have a choice:

1) depart at the booked time and claim Delay Repay
2) obtain a full refund if you choose not to travel
3) depart earlier in order to arrive on time

Which would you like to do?
 

ivorytoast28

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As you already bought your ticket, you have a choice:

1) depart at the booked time and claim Delay Repay
2) obtain a full refund if you choose not to travel
3) depart earlier in order to arrive on time

Which would you like to do?
1) Would I be eligible for this if no trains are delayed? i.e I arrive 1hr 3 later than the original itinerary , which I already know is the case but haven't been informed about, I guess this is my question can delay repay be claimed on an Advance&connections ticket where the "connection" itinerary is different on the day by over an hour to what it was when booked?
2) LNER have just told me via twitter I am not eligible for a refund. Is that incorrect? I do wonder whether I should be
3) Not possible, The advance ticket is from London to Bridlington and is an LNER&connections. I will be at Kings cross in plenty of time but the advance ticket it 15:35 from Kings cross. The last train is now 12 mins after arriving into Doncaster

Honestly, 2 is what I want as I would rather the piece of mind by rebooking to earlier in the day, but LNER are currently saying I cannot cancel
 
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yorkie

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1) Would I be eligible for this if no trains are delayed? i.e I arrive 1hr 3 later than the original itinerary , which I already know is the case but haven't been informed about, I guess this is my question can delay repay be claimed on an Advance&connections ticket where the "connection" itinerary is different on the day by over an hour to what it was when booked?
If your journey is delayed you can claim

What is less clear is if you depart early, can you still claim? If the company does not state that you can, I would assume that you can't; so only do this if the arrival time is crucial and you do not mind departing early and not being compensated for the inconvenience
2) LNER have just told me via twitter I am not eligible for a refund. Is that incorrect? I do wonder whether I should be
LNER are incorrect.

3) Not possible, The advance ticket is from London to Bridlington and is an LNER&connections. I will be at Kings cross in plenty of time but the advance ticket it 15:35 from Kings cross. The last train is now 12 mins after arriving into Doncaster
I would say that you are contracted to depart at 1535 and you are also contracted to arrive at the time you booked; it is therefore your contractual entitlement to do either of these things and it is your choice which you do.

Honestly, 2 is what I want as I would rather the piece of mind by rebooking to earlier in the day, but LNER are currently saying I cannot cancel
They are wrong; it's a fundamental part of the Conditions of Travel.

30.1. If the train you intended to use is cancelled, delayed, or your reservation will not be honoured, and you decide not to travel, you may return the unused Ticket to the original retailer or Train Company from whom it was purchased, where you will be given a full refund with no administration fee being charged.

This Condition applies to all Tickets, including Tickets (such as Advance Tickets) that are otherwise non-refundable, and also applies if you have begun your journey but are unable to complete it due to delay or cancellations and return to your point of origin

When is the journey and how much have you paid?
 

ivorytoast28

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OP said it was £11
It should have been £16.85 as an advance single with 16-25 railcard, though I used £5 credit offer from LNER perks to pay for it. So yeah it wasn't a lot, it just got me curious with the itinerary change as to what the rights of the passenger were
 

yorkie

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I couldn't find your tweet; I would have directed LNER to this thread if I had found it.
 

ivorytoast28

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If your journey is delayed you can claim

What is less clear is if you depart early, can you still claim? If the company does not state that you can, I would assume that you can't; so only do this if the arrival time is crucial and you do not mind departing early and not being compensated for the inconvenience

LNER are incorrect.


I would say that you are contracted to depart at 1535 and you are also contracted to arrive at the time you booked; it is therefore your contractual entitlement to do either of these things and it is your choice which you do.


They are wrong; it's a fundamental part of the Conditions of Travel.



When is the journey and how much have you paid?
So in the first and 3rd point you are essentially saying i should attempt to board an earlier LNER train than I have been booked onto?

I couldn't find your tweet; I would have directed LNER to this thread if I had found it.
I messaged them personally, sorry, i'll send them the link here if that is appropriate
 

yorkie

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If you can't get a replacement ticket for the same price, don't get a refund if you still want to make the journey.

If you don't mind the possibility of being delayed and getting a taxi, just get your booked train from KGX

If you really want to arrive time, have a word with the Train Manager and explain that you need to get the earlier train in order to avoid a delay; contractually I believe they are obliged to let you do this (though that does not guarantee they will; if they refuse you then have the option of contesting an additional fare, which may be a lot of hassle)



I messaged them personally, sorry, i'll send them the link here if that is appropriate
You could do , or send them straight to https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/National Rail Conditions of Travel.pdf (condition 30) but please only do this if you won't be out of pocket.

On a separate note, this incident does raise the importance of:

1) Booking a journey in advance, so that the contract is formed, if at all possible
2) Booking through a retailer you trust to give you good service (and be able to escalate if you do not; for example the owners of the website/retailer I use can be contacted through this forum if necessary)
3) For a multi-leg journey which may involve multiple tickets, obtain all the ticket(s) in one transaction, from one retailer, with an itinerary clearly showing the full journey

I've mentioned this a few times to people, and this is a perfect example as to why!
 
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ivorytoast28

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If you can't get a replacement ticket for the same price, don't get a refund if you still want to make the journey.

If you don't mind the possibility of being delayed and getting a taxi, just get your booked train from KGX

If you really want to arrive time, have a word with the Train Manager and explain that you need to get the earlier train in order to avoid a delay; contractually I believe they are obliged to let you do this (though that does not guarantee they will; if they refuse you then have the option of contesting an additional fare, which may be a lot of hassle)




You could do , or send them straight to https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/National Rail Conditions of Travel.pdf (condition 30) but please only do this if you won't be out of pocket.

On a separate note, this incident does raise the importance of:

1) Booking a journey in advance, so that the contract is formed, if at all possible
2) Booking through a retailer you trust to give you good service (and be able to escalate if you do not; for example the owners of the website/retailer I use can be contacted through this forum if necessary)
3) For a multi-leg journey which may involve multiple tickets, obtain all the ticket(s) in one transaction, from one retailer, with an itinerary clearly showing the full journey

I've mentioned this a few times to people, and this is a perfect example as to why!
Thank you
And yes I agree, I guess this situation would rarely occur and is only because of covid and Northern releasing future timetables very late. The LNER timetable was about a month ahead, I've no idea when northern finally did, I only checked today. And honestly I trust LNER and their service always seems excellent, this is honestly more northern's fault than theirs.
Yeah, I'll see what happens, I'm not so bothered and would rather pay a little extra to know I've plenty of time to travel by train foremost rather than taxi or whatnot but they've guaranteed I won't be stranded which is the obvious initial concern but I'll still question them further as to why they would deny a refund,
Thanks for all your help and answers :)

If you can't get a replacement ticket for the same price, don't get a refund if you still want to make the journey.

If you don't mind the possibility of being delayed and getting a taxi, just get your booked train from KGX

If you really want to arrive time, have a word with the Train Manager and explain that you need to get the earlier train in order to avoid a delay; contractually I believe they are obliged to let you do this (though that does not guarantee they will; if they refuse you then have the option of contesting an additional fare, which may be a lot of hassle)




You could do , or send them straight to https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/National Rail Conditions of Travel.pdf (condition 30) but please only do this if you won't be out of pocket.

On a separate note, this incident does raise the importance of:

1) Booking a journey in advance, so that the contract is formed, if at all possible
2) Booking through a retailer you trust to give you good service (and be able to escalate if you do not; for example the owners of the website/retailer I use can be contacted through this forum if necessary)
3) For a multi-leg journey which may involve multiple tickets, obtain all the ticket(s) in one transaction, from one retailer, with an itinerary clearly showing the full journey

I've mentioned this a few times to people, and this is a perfect example as to why!
They just responded saying:
"Hi William, Delay Repay would apply if your service was delayed unexpectedly on the day. However, as this is a pre-planned change to the timetable which you've been notified of, I'm afraid it wouldn't be possible to claim in these circumstances. ^JC"

To which I informed them that they did not notify me and linked them to the national rail terms and conditions. I did link them to this thread but i do not know if they have seen it
 
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hkstudent

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Thank you
And yes I agree, I guess this situation would rarely occur and is only because of covid and Northern releasing future timetables very late. The LNER timetable was about a month ahead, I've no idea when northern finally did, I only checked today. And honestly I trust LNER and their service always seems excellent, this is honestly more northern's fault than theirs.
Yeah, I'll see what happens, I'm not so bothered and would rather pay a little extra to know I've plenty of time to travel by train foremost rather than taxi or whatnot but they've guaranteed I won't be stranded which is the obvious initial concern but I'll still question them further as to why they would deny a refund,
Thanks for all your help and answers :)


They just responded saying:
"Hi William, Delay Repay would apply if your service was delayed unexpectedly on the day. However, as this is a pre-planned change to the timetable which you've been notified of, I'm afraid it wouldn't be possible to claim in these circumstances. ^JC"

To which I informed them that they did not notify me and linked them to the national rail terms and conditions. I did link them to this thread but i do not know if they have seen it
For OP's info,
the train from Hull to Bridlington departs in 1818 and 1918, where OP's Doncaster to Hull train arrives in 1815.
If OP is fast enough (including getting to the front carriage as possible), OP maybe able to catch the 1818 service.
 

ivorytoast28

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For OP's info,
the train from Hull to Bridlington departs in 1818 and 1918, where OP's Doncaster to Hull train arrives in 1815.
If OP is fast enough (including getting to the front carriage as possible), OP maybe able to catch the 1818 service.
Thank you, I just looked on realtimetrains and yeah I suppose that gives a little more certainty and makes sense as it was a through service(ironically I've often questioned why northern had such weird through services which could be easily delayed but here I am) but yeah, I've never been to hull before but it looks like platform 2 to 4 so I'll search the layouts before.
But my concern isn't the change at hull so much but the LNER one being delayed at doncaster. Under that situation I would be relying on doing that 3 minute change at hull the next hour or taking their taxi (or more logically still catching the next train to york and going via scarborough but i'd rather book that in advance ofc)
I was mostly curious as to the "before the day alteration terms" tbh and it seems LNER disagree with the forum as to the eligibility of a refund for a change in itinerary that delays the passenger by over an hour. LNER seem to think it's perfectly fine to delay a passenger without compensation from their response
 

Watershed

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There is a big problem with the rail industry's attitude to timetable changes after someone has bought their ticket. A lot of companies seem to think that there is no need to notify or compensate people affected by late notice changes.

An Advance ticket inherently only entitles you to travel on the booked services, so it is ludicrous to say you cannot obtain a refund if one of your services has been cancelled (through a late notice timetable change or otherwise). And yet that is what LNER appear to be suggesting here, with a straight face.

The issue of delay compensation is more of a grey area - most train companies' Passenger's Charters state that they will not pay Delay Repay for 'planned' changes. However, the NRCoT sets out a minimum level of compensation which is payable in all circumstances - see condition 33.4:
A Train Company may not be obliged to pay compensation under this Condition if the cause of the delay was entirely outside the rail industry’s control. Each Train Company’s Passenger’s Charter will set out any exclusions that applies to such claims in respect of their services. However, you are entitled to compensation if the delay was 60 minutes or longer, regardless of fault.
This would be for a minimum of 50% of the price of the ticket.

The wording of the phrase "any exclusions that applies to such claims" also implies that Passenger's Charters can only exclude the enhanced Delay Repay level of compensation (which would be 100% for a 1 hour delay) for delays that are entirely outside the rail industry's control. A planned timetable change clearly doesn't fall into that category.

Anyway, either way I think you are likely to have a fight on your hands, even to get the NRCoT minimum level of compensation.
 

yorkie

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Thank you
And yes I agree, I guess this situation would rarely occur and is only because of covid and Northern releasing future timetables very late. The LNER timetable was about a month ahead, I've no idea when northern finally did, I only checked today. And honestly I trust LNER and their service always seems excellent, this is honestly more northern's fault than theirs.
Yeah, I'll see what happens, I'm not so bothered and would rather pay a little extra to know I've plenty of time to travel by train foremost rather than taxi or whatnot but they've guaranteed I won't be stranded which is the obvious initial concern but I'll still question them further as to why they would deny a refund,
Thanks for all your help and answers :)


They just responded saying:
"Hi William, Delay Repay would apply if your service was delayed unexpectedly on the day. However, as this is a pre-planned change to the timetable which you've been notified of, I'm afraid it wouldn't be possible to claim in these circumstances. ^JC"

To which I informed them that they did not notify me and linked them to the national rail terms and conditions. I did link them to this thread but i do not know if they have seen it
Is that LNER?

Ignore them; their tweeters are not all knowledgeable. It's not like asking here for advice!

But a delay repay claim would be with Northern anyway ( A refund claim would be with LNER as the retailer)

I advise not buying from LNER in future.
 

Haywain

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It should have been £16.85 as an advance single with 16-25 railcard, though I used £5 credit offer from LNER perks to pay for it.
So the price of the ticket was £16.85. The £5 Perks credit is your money to spend on tickets, and does not alter the ticket price. Any refund would be for £16.85 and Delay Repay would be based on the same fare.

And if you desire a refund, apply for it rather than taking the social media team's comments as being the final word on the matter.
 

Llandudno

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Is that LNER?

Ignore them; their tweeters are not all knowledgeable. It's not like asking here for advice!

But a delay repay claim would be with Northern anyway ( A refund claim would be with LNER as the retailer)

I advise not buying from LNER in future.
Which website would you recommend for buying rail tickets?
 

Pit_buzzer

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If you claim delay repay from Northern you get the option of free tickets, these can be a lot more valuable than the fare refunded in this case
 

hkstudent

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If you claim delay repay from Northern you get the option of free tickets, these can be a lot more valuable than the fare refunded in this case
That really depends on whether OP is based in the North.
And also, many Northern advances are pretty cheap anyway.
 

yorkie

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Which website would you recommend for buying rail tickets?
I might be considered biased as I know the people involved, but I buy most of my tickets from Trainsplit, for several reasons:

1) if any problems occur and I need to escalate a matter, the owners of Trainsplit and Raileasy are on this forum (the same applies to some other retailers, notably Assertis for example)
2) it has a seat selector that works with all applicable companies
3) it might find a cheaper fare than the through fare
4) i prefer to have my bookings in one place
5) I like the way that a combination of tickets is issued as one handy PDF; in the case the OP has one ticket but for a journey if this nature it would often be cheaper to split, and I like the convenience of one PDF for the whole journey.
If you claim delay repay from Northern you get the option of free tickets, these can be a lot more valuable than the fare refunded in this case
This is true however if the delay is over 60 minutes, a fully flexible return could be deemed quite valuable.

Although I've often been able to take advantage of £8 Family & Friend day tickets I would be prepared to pay around £10 to £16 for a return, and anyone who isn't fortunate to be offered the chance to get the £8 fares may well see a value greater than £20.

It's worth mentioning the option to the original poster as everyone's circumstances are unique.
 

zero

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The £5 Perks credit is your money to spend on tickets, and does not alter the ticket price. Any refund would be for £16.85 and Delay Repay would be based on the same fare.

LNER would be within their rights to refund £11.85 to your card and £5 to your Perks account
 

yorkie

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LNER would be within their rights to refund £11.85 to your card and £5 to your Perks account
In theory yes.

But in practice that might be tricky.

However if @Haywain had a view on what is likely to happen in this scenario, I would be prepared to take a bet that he is correct. ;)
 

robbeech

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There is a big problem with the rail industry's attitude to timetable changes after someone has bought their ticket. A lot of companies seem to think that there is no need to notify or compensate people affected by late notice changes.
I think there's a little bit of a bandwagon here too. One of the less passenger focussed operators such as Northern have been playing this card for years now. It's unlawful, if for no other reason that it isn't documented, but they get away with it because there is no real world regulation on it. Other operators see this behaviour, and they want a piece of it as its profitable, so they jump on board, and before you know it, it's an unwritten rule. They're still not allowed to do it, but there is absolutely nothing the passenger can do and nobody they can refer it to.

As far as notifying goes, again, it's not worth it for them. They do not gain anything by notifying passengers of a timetable change because they have these unwritten rules about refunds and DR not being applicable in these instances even though it could be automated so very few operators do this, although i believe LNER are generally quite good at this.

Is that LNER?

Ignore them; their tweeters are not all knowledgeable. It's not like asking here for advice!
I think that is all well and good, but it isn't the forum that is refunding them, and its entirely possible (from personal experience) that you'll get an outright rejection from them. This will almost certainly be rectified with a reply and further explanation but that relies on the passenger knowing the rules that the staff don't know which is convenient for the operator as most don't.
 

Haywain

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In theory yes.

But in practice that might be tricky.

However if @Haywain had a view on what is likely to happen in this scenario, I would be prepared to take a bet that he is correct.
You are probably a touch more confident than I am! However, recent experience with other businesses is that refunds are being made to the original source and this is what I would expect LNER to do, so the £5 would revert to being a Perks credit or eVoucher with similar usage restrictions.
 

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