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Is train driving considered a skilled or semi skilled profession?

Is train driving considered a skilled or semi skilled profession?

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NotATrainspott

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Not to dive too off topic, but nurses in the US are paid much more than in the UK. The median salary of a Registered Nurse in Texas is about $75k a year (£54k), or $15k a year more than the median household income. The average UK nurse is paid around £34k, compared to a median household income of about £30k.

People are paid what they are paid because of market effects, including collective bargaining. Train drivers are paid comparatively highly because relatively few people are willing or able to handle the responsibilities of the job. The few people who do qualify as drivers keep their salaries high by being particularly difficult to replace. A TOC is a bit stuck when negotiating pay because train driving requires the general skill (e.g. the standard rulebook) but also the right combination of route and traction knowledge. There may only be a few drivers around who are capable of filling a specific diagram slot, and the drivers all know that. Recruiting a new driver to fill a diagram is expensive, and once they can do the job, they'll align with the other drivers and demand high wages anyway. The need to retain traction and route knowledge means that it's not possible to keep a large pool of drivers around who can swap in when required.

The easiest way for a TOC to get a new driver when required is to poach one from another TOC, which drivers also know, so drivers can get even higher wages because of that intense competition for their services. If a TOC would be fined £10k a year due to increased cancellations if they don't get another driver on their payroll, they'll be willing to pay up to that extra £10k in salary (minus employment costs) for another driver.

The reason that nurses aren't paid that much is that their collective bargaining ability is severely limited. People can reasonably believe that a good feature of the NHS is its buying power. It's one of the (if not the) largest and richest healthcare institutions in the world. Suppliers of equipment and drugs know that they can't lose the NHS as a customer, so they offer low prices. This is actually a sort of monopoly in reverse, known as a monopsony: a single buyer dictating terms from all suppliers, rather than lots of customers being dictated by a single supplier.

If you're a nurse in the UK, you are in a sense a victim of monopsony. The NHS is your only real customer, so it can dictate terms. There may be jobs elsewhere but a lot of them are also funded either directly or indirectly by the government. This means that your ability to demand higher wages is very limited. There aren't any other employers willing to pay much more, so you can't so easily leave your current job.

The compounding problem for nurses vs train drivers is that train drivers are perfectly happy to strike and cause chaos if they don't like the terms on offer. We know that train drivers will strike, and that these strikes are very unpopular for some of the more politically important constituencies in the country. That said, a train driver strike doesn't actually affect too much of the everyday running of the country for people to notice, as most people aren't reliant on trains. The drivers know that they can survive weeks with no pay, but the government and TOCs will likely fold, so they're more willing to strike in the first place and more likely to win if they do.

Nurses strikes can't be as effective because nurses aren't willing to be as militant, for understandable ethical reasons. A nurses strike would be effective if it actually meant that sick and dying people genuinely suffered in healthcare settings. By doing much more limited action, like just working to rule or not doing overtime, the effects of a strike are much more limited. Indeed, if you can prove that the remaining nurses on duty can still do some of their job (even if ridiculously overburdened) then it might actually be seen as evidence that the striking nurses are surplus to requirements.

That said, a proper nurses strike would also affect a lot more people, a lot more seriously. It's easy to blame the government but they're acting as a sort of representative of the public will. If the government is underpaying nurses, that's because the people have decided they want to underpay nurses. Fighting against the government is to fight against the public will as expressed in elections. Demanding to be paid more is to demand that the public pay more in tax, or less money is spent on another thing the public want (e.g. education). The government can use this to their advantage if they are taking liberties with the public will. If nurses are actually allowing sick people to suffer and die, the public might be persuaded to do more drastic action to force them off the picket line (e.g. making them criminally liable for strike-related deaths).

The extra pay for US nurses comes from private and state-funded health insurance. These aren't a magic money tree. Private health insurance is an expensive but necessary purchase for most households or employers in the US. In the end it's not much different to a tax, but one which is levied more through market forces than a government-defined notion of fairness. The primary benefit a system like this has is that if the overall cost of providing healthcare goes up (e.g. due to an aging population), then the private healthcare insurers will pass this on directly as increased premiums. The same result of increased funding is entirely possible in an NHS-like tax funding model, but it requires the government and thus the electorate to accept that taxes must also rise. Deciding whether to raise taxes through elections seems to result in electoral cakeism, as few voters seem that keen on increasing taxes to the level that's actually required. Taking that decision out of their hands by putting it in the hands of a more technocratic market process isn't necessarily the worst thing in the world.
 
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janahan

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I normally dont like it when people see some jobs are more "skilled" than others, as its pretty condescending. I myself am a Software Developer (and whilst i dont want to appear like I am tooting my own horn, but i think i am pretty good, and have worked for some very large companies, doing some pretty large projects, and its likely many people - millions, worldwide have used products I have worked on)

Some woudl see my profession as Skilled as it requires a lot of learning about different languages and technologies, as well as a LOT of experience to know what to apply, when to apply and knwoing what went wrong! However, unless we are makign a Critical Software, it doesnt have the immediate safety aspects that other profession have. For example, a code bug (unless creating a safety critical bug) in most cases can be fixed later.

Train driving however, whilst may not have the broad skill set as a computer programmer, on the other hand it requires you to execute yoru tasks almost perfectly every time. You dont have room for error, as that coudl end very badly. you also need to be able to learn and memorise an entire route, and different vehicles. You have to stop the train at the correct point on the platform (or even a red signal) every time many times a day, which is not as easy as stopping a car. I have myself used Train Simulator (which i am aware is easier than the real thing), and know how hard it can be to accurately stop each time, read signs, etc. I can only imagine how much harder it is in real life.

So yes, Train drivers (and pilots, etc) are skilled professions in the same way as other skilled professions. In fact most professions are skilled in their own right, just a different set of skills, no less important though.
 

Efini92

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Driving air braked/ vacuum braked trains was a skill. As was an unfitted train.

Modern EP braked trains are like rev and go scooters.
 

a340egkk

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Driving air braked/ vacuum braked trains was a skill. As was an unfitted train.

Modern EP braked trains are like rev and go scooters.
And with the difference in the systems has come a reduction in the acceptable margin of error - in short, whilst the drivability of trains might have become significantly easier, it doesn’t mean the job overall has, because the level of scrutiny and accountability has increased to compensate.
25yr ago you could fairly easily get away with things that you would be sacked for in the modern era.
 

greyman42

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And with the difference in the systems has come a reduction in the acceptable margin of error - in short, whilst the drivability of trains might have become significantly easier, it doesn’t mean the job overall has, because the level of scrutiny and accountability has increased to compensate.
25yr ago you could fairly easily get away with things that you would be sacked for in the modern era.
That could be said of many jobs. Simply, you do not do the things you did 25 years ago for that very reason.
 

a340egkk

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That could be said of many jobs. Simply, you do not do the things you did 25 years ago for that very reason.
Yes but the original commenter seemed to imply that the increased ease of one aspect of the job means that the job overall is less skilled than it was previously. Which, as in the other roles that have undergone a similar transformation, is not the case.
 

Efini92

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And with the difference in the systems has come a reduction in the acceptable margin of error - in short, whilst the drivability of trains might have become significantly easier, it doesn’t mean the job overall has, because the level of scrutiny and accountability has increased to compensate.
25yr ago you could fairly easily get away with things that you would be sacked for in the modern era.
Whilst there certainly is more accountability today I’d say it’s more the cultures of old that would get you sacked today, not the margins of error.

Yes but the original commenter seemed to imply that the increased ease of one aspect of the job means that the job overall is less skilled than it was previously. Which, as in the other roles that have undergone a similar transformation, is not the case.
The job is easier than it’s ever been. The driver requires less knowledge to do the job now than they did 30 years ago. The trains are also a lot simpler to drive.
 

seagull

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Easier - yes. Less skilled - no. Don't forget that non-technical skills are more important now than ever before, particularly so given the "easy" nature of the actual driving itself and the fact that can cause loss of concentration and awareness especially when on certain shift times and patterns.
 

Efini92

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Easier - yes. Less skilled - no. Don't forget that non-technical skills are more important now than ever before, particularly so given the "easy" nature of the actual driving itself and the fact that can cause loss of concentration and awareness especially when on certain shift times and patterns.
There’s more awareness and understanding of non-technical skills now. Drivers will still have sub concisely used them (or at least some of them) before they were widely understood.
In the days before the DRA I know some drivers used to wrap the cab to cab round the brake handle.
 

ComUtoR

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Whilst there certainly is more accountability today I’d say it’s more the cultures of old that would get you sacked today, not the margins of error.

The stories I have heard from the old boys on the job would absolutely terrify you.

The job is easier than it’s ever been. The driver requires less knowledge to do the job now than they did 30 years ago.
I'm not sure about this. There was very much a culture of just winging it back in the day. I remember being signed off routes where the only consideration was getting to the station without messing up. Back in the crew room you were basically given all the answers to the questions so you can get away early

The trains are also a lot simpler to drive.

I agree
 

Efini92

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The stories I have heard from the old boys on the job would absolutely terrify you.


I'm not sure about this. There was very much a culture of just winging it back in the day. I remember being signed off routes where the only consideration was getting to the station without messing up. Back in the crew room you were basically given all the answers to the questions so you can get away early



I agree
We’ve probably heard similar stories. It was a different railway back then.
Id say there’s more winging it now, Take traction, when I passed out you had to know how to diagnose and rectify faults. Today you just ring maintenance.
It’s definitely worse today with answers. Even the trainees have copies of all the answers now.
 

a340egkk

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We’ve probably heard similar stories. It was a different railway back then.
Id say there’s more winging it now, Take traction, when I passed out you had to know how to diagnose and rectify faults. Today you just ring maintenance.
It’s definitely worse today with answers. Even the trainees have copies of all the answers now.
Having just been through a traction course, whilst it’s not as in depth as desired and how it would’ve been previously 25+yr ago, it’s certainly a lot more than ‘ring maintenance’. And having checked traction manuals on the relevant classes from early 2000s, we’ve covered at least as much as is contained within those.
 

102 fan

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I would say skilled. Any job that could result in death if done incorrectly is most certainly skilled!!!!
 

greyman42

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I would say skilled. Any job that could result in death if done incorrectly is most certainly skilled!!!!
Then you would have to include the cleaning and minor repairs of some machinery in factories which is carried out by production workers.
 

eoff

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I would say skilled. Any job that could result in death if done incorrectly is most certainly skilled!!!!
I don't think this is relevant, would you include the person who turns around the stop/go sign at roadworks (1 day course)?

Most definitions relating to skilled/semi-skilled labour are concerned with the transferability of skills to other roles, level of training required, specialism, autonomy and responsibility.
 

102 fan

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I don't think this is relevant, would you include the person who turns around the stop/go sign at roadworks (1 day course)?

Most definitions relating to skilled/semi-skilled labour are concerned with the transferability of skills to other roles, level of training required, specialism, autonomy and responsibility.


Come off it, you can't compare the two. Be sensible if you're going to be obstinate. A train driver earns around £50000 pounds, and can be driving a train at 125 MPH carrying several hundred passengers. To compare that to a stop/go operative at roadworks is just silly.
 

Christmas

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Train driving isn't a profession at all, not by the definition of a profession at least. It's certainly an occupation though. Professions and the route to professionalisation is a long one and features aspects like autonomy and a clear framework for continuous professional development outlined and controlled by the professional body that represents its members. Train driving doesn't have this so is not a true profession. Yes, drivers are expected to act 'professionally' but that's an entirely different thing.

Drivers do not belong to a professional body that represents their interests, they don't have any control over their curriculum framework and importantly, they don't need any higher educational qualifications to carry out their jobs, therefore train driving is not a profession, neither is flying a plane.

It definitely is a skilled role though. Maybe you can add another poll asking if people believe that train driving is or is not a profession?
 

Stigy

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Train driving isn't a profession at all, not by the definition of a profession at least. It's certainly an occupation though. Professions and the route to professionalisation is a long one and features aspects like autonomy and a clear framework for continuous professional development outlined and controlled by the professional body that represents its members. Train driving doesn't have this so is not a true profession. Yes, drivers are expected to act 'professionally' but that's an entirely different thing.

Drivers do not belong to a professional body that represents their interests, they don't have any control over their curriculum framework and importantly, they don't need any higher educational qualifications to carry out their jobs, therefore train driving is not a profession, neither is flying a plane.

It definitely is a skilled role though. Maybe you can add another poll asking if people believe that train driving is or is not a profession?
That’s subjective. If you look up the definition of a profession, you’ll see that. It’s certainly not as in-depth as you describe it.
 

Christmas

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That’s subjective. If you look up the definition of a profession, you’ll see that. It’s certainly not as in-depth as you describe it.
One of us has written about the subject extensively but I'll take your word for it.
 

Christmas

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Skilled in my opinion. Not everyone is capable of gaining a PCV or LGV licence. Sadly the pay doesn't reflect this.

Skilled in my opinion. Not everyone is capable of gaining a PCV or LGV licence. Sadly the pay doesn't reflect this.
Which reminds me, the current lack of lorry drivers has had the media in a frenzy, talking about HGV drivers. It hasn't been an HGV for the last 25 years!
 

Stigy

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One of us has written about the subject extensively but I'll take your word for it.
I was referring directly to the dictionary definition, which appears rather conclusive, but there you go.
 

Stigy

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If dictionary definitions were the route to a PhD then we'd all have one.
Oh, PhD, that explains everything.

So one needs a PhD to be qualified to make an assessment of what constitutes a profession, based on the dictionary?
 
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Christmas

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Oh, PhD, that explains everything. No further questions.
:rolleyes: jealousy is a cruel master.

I'm taking nothing away from the role of the driver. I was just pointing out that although it is a skilled job, it's not a profession. You might want to look at paramedics and their journey to professionalisation if you are interested. Profession is not a synonym for work.
 

Stigy

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:rolleyes: jealousy is a cruel master.

I'm taking nothing away from the role of the driver. I was just pointing out that although it is a skilled job, it's not a profession. You might want to look at paramedics and their journey to professionalisation if you are interested. Profession is not a synonym for work.
I’m certainly not jealous. Or arrogant for that matter….or patronising….

I’m well aware of the journey to professionalism Paramedics take. I wasn’t saying that professionalism was a synonym for work. However, it is abundantly clear that it refers to a job which takes an amount of time to train for, and/or leads to a professional qualification. If you can prove me wrong, I’m all ears.
 

Christmas

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I’m certainly not jealous. Or arrogant for that matter….or patronising….

I’m well aware of the journey to professionalism Paramedics take. I wasn’t saying that professionalism was a synonym for work. However, it is abundantly clear that it refers to a job which takes an amount of time to train for, and/or leads to a professional qualification. If you can prove me wrong, I’m all ears.
Well drivers are issued with a train driving licence but the last time I checked it wasn't a professional qualification. Let's make no mistake, all members of the forum know what's involved in becoming a train driver and a tiny proportion of them actually have what it takes. However, until responsibility for a driver's training and professional development is transferred to a body that represents their interests then they can't be defined as having a profession.
Professionalisation and professionalism shouldn't be conflated either.
 
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