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Isn't it time something was done with CrossCountry?

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Julian Hornby

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When travelling on CrossCountry, you often climb aboard a cramped class 220 or 221 which smells, is unclean and extremely busy. Instead of wasting money on things such as HS2, why aren't the DFT awarding more trains or coaches to CrossCountry to relieve such busy routes? On a service from Southampton to Manchester, passing many large cities there are only four carriages, one being first class! They're extremely unreliable, unclean, smelly, overcrowded and expensive. When will the improvements come?
 
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HSTEd

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Who pays?

(also I think Voyagers rate as one of the most reliable units in Britain).
 

Julian Hornby

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Who pays? The Government of course! They seem to be able to just say 'Yep we'll spend Billions of pounds on some rail link that only benefits the wealthy!'

And, yes the voyagers are reliable yet that doesn't stop the operator from being extremely unreliable
 

cf111

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CrossCountry needs DMUs to operate most of its routes and there are none of them lying around waiting to be used. The DFT can't "award" trains that aren't there and I very much doubt that either they or Arriva will pay to lease any new ones to be designed and built. There is the added issue in that new diesel stock must comply with EU emissions guidelines and I don't think anything of the like exists at the moment, happy to be proven wrong though.

Perhaps improvements will be made when lines are electrified and diesel stock cascaded but this is years away.
 
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Julian Hornby

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Then perhaps they should start electrifying lines rather than building new ones.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Or get rid of the first class coach!
 

MidnightFlyer

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Who pays?

(also I think Voyagers rate as one of the most reliable units in Britain).

More so with the extended dwell times they get at larger stations.

It's not as clear cut as is made out to be I think - I travelled on the 1100 Glasgow-Penzance via Leeds a month or so ago between Berwick and Newcastle. I was expecting it to be somewhat busy but, as a 5-car 221, there was only myself and three others in my carriage. Obviously once it hits Yorkshire and the Midlands it will become crowded, but between Glasgow and York I doubt it would be possible to justify more carriages from what I saw. Obviously the service after that could have been a 4-car 220 wedged solid, which would obviously benefit from something!
 

cf111

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Then perhaps they should start electrifying lines rather than building new ones.

The long - term plan is to have the majority of the British network electrified, but again this takes time and money.
 

MidnightFlyer

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Then perhaps they should start electrifying lines rather than building new ones.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Or get rid of the first class coach!

They are, sadly just not XC ones! That's the trouble with the network - you could justify OHLE infills at the relevant points between Birmingham and York, but what about beyond Edinburgh? I can't imagine Aberdeen will be juiced for a while, so do you cut off Fife, Dundee and Aberdeen from the network? What about in the Westcountry? To get around this do you order bi-modes in addition to new electric stock?

I doubt XC would scrap First - it probably brings in a lot of money for them and I doubt you'd leave a lot of regulars happy!
 

cf111

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The main issue with the Voyagers is that they are too short by about three coaches. I'm in the minority I think but after they sorted out the worst of the sewage smell I quite enjoy travelling on them!
 

al.currie93

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I agree that they could do with some more stock, but with no forseeable DMU orders and locomotives out of the question due to the current unit love (and emission regulations possobly preventing any new diesel locomotives after the 68s) the only thing available any time soon will be some IC125s, which would probably do the job fine but it's questionable as to whether they'll end up with them or not (no more comments on that please!). Other than those then it's likely to be the 222s a few years further.
 

dannypye9999

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The best way to improve any XC stock problem would be to withdraw the Glasgow and Aberdeen services and run trains no further than Edinburgh (only 2 hourly to Edinburgh). Passengers wanting to travel between Birmingham and Glasgow or Edinburgh have got Virgin which run the fastest way via WCML so Glasgow via York is pointless as it takes about 90 mins longer. Aberdeen and Dundee should also be passed over to Virgin to operate via WCML as EC already serve York to Edinburgh/Aberdeen and perhaps FTPE could run some Edinburgh/Aberdeen trains from Liverpool/Manchester to fill in the gaps.
 
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scotsman

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The best way to improve any XC stock problem would be to withdraw the Glasgow and Aberdeen services and run trains no further than Edinburgh (only 2 hourly to Edinburgh). Passengers wanting to travel between Birmingham and Glasgow or Edinburgh have got Virgin which run the fastest way via WCML so Glasgow via York is pointless as it takes about 90 mins longer. Aberdeen and Dundee should also be passed over to Virgin to operate via WCML as EC already serve York to Edinburgh/Aberdeen and perhaps FTPE could run some Edinburgh/Aberdeen trains from Liverpool/Manchester to fill in the gaps.

Few issues. Firstly, you forget that not everyone travels on XC from end to end - in fact, that's the point of them! Pax from Glasgow use CrossCountry to get to Newcastle and the east coast.

There's also the convenience factor - there are a handful of daily services from the east coast of Scotland to anywhere south of Edinburgh. Whilst XC may be serving destinations served by EC, they are serving them at a time convenient to them - some will stay on to Birmingham etc. to avoid the hassle of changing.

In fact, passengers coming from the north to Birmingham have the option of a 7 minute connection at Haymarket - or stay on the same train without having to shift all their luggage for 58 minutes longer. You'd be surprised how many opt for the latter.

Secondly, neither Virgin nor TPE (especially TPE) have the rolling stock, let alone crews to provide these services.

Also, the Glasgow - Edinburgh journeys can be cancelled at any time without penalty. Transport Scotland asked XC to fill the void the East Coast left, which XC agreed to. The condition for doing this being that there would be no penalty for them cancelling journeys between Glasgow and Edinburgh. (I believe this may even protect their PPM, but I'm not sure on that)
 
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Manchester77

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When travelling on CrossCountry, you often climb aboard a cramped class 220 or 221 which smells, is unclean and extremely busy. Instead of wasting money on things such as HS2, why aren't the DFT awarding more trains or coaches to CrossCountry to relieve such busy routes? On a service from Southampton to Manchester, passing many large cities there are only four carriages, one being first class! They're extremely unreliable, unclean, smelly, overcrowded and expensive. When will the improvements come?
So how would you create capacity on the WCML without HS2?

(also I think Voyagers rate as one of the most reliable units in Britain).
Yes I think they are, and they're some if the safest too I think.

Who pays? The Government of course! They seem to be able to just say 'Yep we'll spend Billions of pounds on some rail link that only benefits the wealthy!'

And, yes the voyagers are reliable yet that doesn't stop the operator from being extremely unreliable
The government cannot award carriages, for the DfT to physically give trains to a TOC it would have to do what it's done with IEP/X-Rail/Thameslink all of which are far costlier than traditional TOC procured orders. Instead of complaining about HS2 why aren't you complaining we're spending billions on a fleet of trains which will make intercity travel on GW and EC more uncomfortable as well as wipe out any premium EC can give because of their leasing and operating cost?

Then perhaps they should start electrifying lines rather than building new ones.
Have you been living on the moon for the last few years or something?! CP5 will see vast swathes of the network electrified, GWML, MML, North Western Triangle, TransPennine, Welsh Valleys are a few of the schemes not to mention the ones in Scotland and the DC trial conversion.

If you want a dig at the DfT there are many many more things you can criticise them for but XC isn't one of them !
 

a good off

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In my opinion XC should take on all the soon to be displaced FGW HSTs, put them through heavy overhaul and refurbishment and then release the Voyagers to another operator and route such as Cardiff - Portsmouth which they'd be more suited to.
 

NotATrainspott

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When travelling on CrossCountry, you often climb aboard a cramped class 220 or 221 which smells, is unclean and extremely busy. Instead of wasting money on things such as HS2, why aren't the DFT awarding more trains or coaches to CrossCountry to relieve such busy routes? On a service from Southampton to Manchester, passing many large cities there are only four carriages, one being first class! They're extremely unreliable, unclean, smelly, overcrowded and expensive. When will the improvements come?

Then perhaps they should start electrifying lines rather than building new ones.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Or get rid of the first class coach!

Since you don't seem to have the faintest clue what HS2 is about I would just point out that the effect of Phase 2 upon the CrossCountry network will be enormous. There will be two 550m high speed trains an hour from Birmingham to Leeds and to Manchester and one to Newcastle, serving the East Midlands at Toton and Sheffield Meadowhall. Most of the passenger demand on the XC network is between Birmingham and the North East so this will massively increase capacity, reduce journey times and enhance reliability. In future it is by no means implausible that there will be a high speed line between Bristol and Birmingham, on top of the completion of HS2 towards Scotland and Newcastle, so the only way is up for the CrossCountry network as a result of HS2.
 

SpacePhoenix

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The main issue with the Voyagers is that they are too short by about three coaches. I'm in the minority I think but after they sorted out the worst of the sewage smell I quite enjoy travelling on them!

Is there enough power in a Voyager to have some permanently unpowerd coaches (would they be able to get away with adding unpowered coaches or would that still fall foul of the emissions regs?)?
 

The Planner

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We did well with this weekly occurance of XC must have HSTs, it took 14 posts.
 

al.currie93

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The best way to improve any XC stock problem would be to withdraw the Glasgow and Aberdeen services and run trains no further than Edinburgh (only 2 hourly to Edinburgh). Passengers wanting to travel between Birmingham and Glasgow or Edinburgh have got Virgin which run the fastest way via WCML so Glasgow via York is pointless as it takes about 90 mins longer. Aberdeen and Dundee should also be passed over to Virgin to operate via WCML as EC already serve York to Edinburgh/Aberdeen and perhaps FTPE could run some Edinburgh/Aberdeen trains from Liverpool/Manchester to fill in the gaps.

Hmm, an interesting view. Worth consideration, though I'd probably simlly transfer those services to East Coast instead, as that means no change of route from Aberdeen to England, Aberdeen seems like a more logical extention of the ECML than the WCML, amd Glasgow passengers can still reach Newcastle and York in the same way :)

Obviously this would be diagram and stock permitting, but how many Cross Country services a day go from Edinburgh to Aberdeen or Glasgow? It shouldn't be too difficult to extend some East Coast Edinburgh services to these destinations.

In my opinion XC should take on all the soon to be displaced FGW HSTs, put them through heavy overhaul and refurbishment and then release the Voyagers to another operator and route such as Cardiff - Portsmouth which they'd be more suited to.

I'd definitely agree to give them some of them! With shortened sets (six carriages) on some routes they should be a bit better acceleratimg than they are currently too :)
 

cf111

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In my opinion XC should take on all the soon to be displaced FGW HSTs, put them through heavy overhaul and refurbishment and then release the Voyagers to another operator and route such as Cardiff - Portsmouth which they'd be more suited to.

FGW have 58 HST sets at the moment and most if not all of them are over 30 years old. The power cars were recently re-engined so they're not too much of a concern, but the Mk3 coaches would need to be DDA compliant by 2020. Chiltern have showed that it can be done with loco-hauled Mk3s, but this was on a much smaller scale.
 

Mark62

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Since you don't seem to have the faintest clue what HS2 is about I would just point out that the effect of Phase 2 upon the CrossCountry network will be enormous. There will be two 550m high speed trains an hour from Birmingham to Leeds and to Manchester and one to Newcastle, serving the East Midlands at Toton and Sheffield Meadowhall. Most of the passenger demand on the XC network is between Birmingham and the North East so this will massively increase capacity, reduce journey times and enhance reliability. In future it is by no means implausible that there will be a high speed line between Bristol and Birmingham, on top of the completion of HS2 towards Scotland and Newcastle, so the only way is up for the CrossCountry network as a result of HS2.
HS2 will not reduce journey times for the residents of sheffield and Derby. After changing train at Meadowhall and Trent Junction the end to end timing will actually be longer than at present. HS2 will also create more traffic congestion in the East Mids and South Yorkshire unless massive road expansion programs are started and timed to be ready by the launch of HS2.
There is clearly taxpayers money available to fund HS2, in view of the incipient effects of building it, I suggest that the money would be better spent improving what we already have, reopening closed lines and purchasing new rolling stock. HS2 will be built at the expense of an already decaying rail network with the highest fares in Europe.
 

apk55

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If you are adding an extra car I would add a transformer rectifier car and convert the unit to a bi mode unit. As the power cars use electric transmison this would not be difficult as all that would be required is running a power cable the length of unit, some changover contacts and software modification.
As much running is done under the wires, particularily where fast running is required (eg East and West coast lines) the timings would not be affected as the unit would probably be more powefull on electric. And off wire speeds would generaly be lower, so the weight of an extra car would not affect timings. This would also make stations like Birmingham New street more pleasant by removing diesel fumes
 

NotATrainspott

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Hmm, an interesting view. Worth consideration, though I'd probably simlly transfer those services to East Coast instead, as that means no change of route from Aberdeen to England, Aberdeen seems like a more logical extention of the ECML than the WCML, amd Glasgow passengers can still reach Newcastle and York in the same way :)

Obviously this would be diagram and stock permitting, but how many Cross Country services a day go from Edinburgh to Aberdeen or Glasgow? It shouldn't be too difficult to extend some East Coast Edinburgh services to these destinations.



I'd definitely agree to give them some of them! With shortened sets (six carriages) on some routes they should be a bit better acceleratimg than they are currently too :)

There's only a single IC225 that is extended from Edinburgh to Glasgow per day. There are then four HSTs to Aberdeen (three from London, one to/from Leeds at start and end of day) and one to Inverness per day.

HS2 will not reduce journey times for the residents of sheffield and Derby. After changing train at Meadowhall and Trent Junction the end to end timing will actually be longer than at present. HS2 will also create more traffic congestion in the East Mids and South Yorkshire unless massive road expansion programs are started and timed to be ready by the launch of HS2.
There is clearly taxpayers money available to fund HS2, in view of the incipient effects of building it, I suggest that the money would be better spent improving what we already have, reopening closed lines and purchasing new rolling stock. HS2 will be built at the expense of an already decaying rail network with the highest fares in Europe.

No one has ever managed to succeed in your side of the HS2 argument on RailUK. I'm not going to go over all the arguments again.
 

GatwickDepress

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I thought this was going to be about Arriva CrossCountry's many flaws rather than something inherent to the CrossCountry franchise itself. :(
 

dcsprior

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A stopping service from Edinburgh-Newcastle has been talked about as part of the upcoming re-franchising of Scotrail.

If this was to be extended to/from Glasgow Central (only stopping where XC currently stop west of EDB) and the XC services currently serving Glasgow turned around at Newcastle then this would be 9 return journeys a day that XC would not be making. Would this free up XC trains to be used elsewhere, or would it result in them being free at times/places they weren't actually needed?

By my arithmetic, it'd mean over 3,000 miles/day fewer being run by diesel trains on an electrified route.
 

HSTEd

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Who pays? The Government of course! They seem to be able to just say 'Yep we'll spend Billions of pounds on some rail link that only benefits the wealthy!'
Leaving aside the silly jibe at HS2 the CBA of more stock for XC doesn't stack up well at all. Things will get better if the electric spine goes through as Manchester-South Coast can go to dual voltage 110mph electrics.
 

Clip

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Who pays? The Government of course! They seem to be able to just say 'Yep we'll spend Billions of pounds on some rail link that only benefits the wealthy!'

And, yes the voyagers are reliable yet that doesn't stop the operator from being extremely unreliable

What railway line is this then and how have you seen ticket prices for this line before the rest of us on here?
 

The Ham

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They are, sadly just not XC ones! That's the trouble with the network - you could justify OHLE infills at the relevant points between Birmingham and York, but what about beyond Edinburgh? I can't imagine Aberdeen will be juiced for a while, so do you cut off Fife, Dundee and Aberdeen from the network? What about in the Westcountry? To get around this do you order bi-modes in addition to new electric stock?

XC will be able to run EMU's as pointed out by HSTEd:

Leaving aside the silly jibe at HS2 the CBA of more stock for XC doesn't stack up well at all. Things will get better if the electric spine goes through as Manchester-South Coast can go to dual voltage 110mph electrics.

Although this is only one route it would free up 10 sets to be used elsewhere. Assuming that they are all 220's (or any 221's would be swapped with 220's so that they are) that would mean that two 220's could run together to replace a 221 (increasing the number of seats from 250 to 400), the 221 can then replace another 220 (an increase from 200 to 250 seats).

Then repeat until you have used up all the 220's (including those which are being replaced by 221's) and that's at least 20 services would see an increase in seating available and more if there were a few 221's in the mix to start with.

Then of course there maybe services which are busy through the core, but not so much towards the outer edges, meaning that the second of each pair of 220's could be more intensively used by joining and splitting it so it only runs through the core.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also, there wouldn't need to be that much wiring done in CP6 to allow a more XC services to be run by EMU:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=89279

XC in CP 6
Given that by 2020 a fair amount of the XC rail network will have wires on it, although only the Manchester to South Coast route will be able to run as EMU's. What is likely to be the proirity for wiring up the gaps and what new XC services may their be?

My thoughts are that the following routes should be fairly high up the list as they remove a lot DMU's from under the wires for only about 210 miles of electrification. The two routes York/Sheffield (about 45 miles) and wire up Derby/Birmingham (about 40 miles) and wire up the routes between Birmingham/Bristol and Cardiff (about 125 miles) and then the following XC services would be run as EMU services:
- (Southampton) Reading to Newcastle (85 miles of wires)
- (Cardiff) Bristol Temple Meads to Manchester Piccadilly (125 miles of wires, assuming both the route to Bristol and the more direct route to Cardiff)
- Bournemouth to Manchester Piccadilly (CP5 scheme)
- Cardiff Central to Nottingham (165 miles of wires, although this is milage which is included in the routes above, so is efectively "free")

That would only leave the following services as DMU's (miles of wires would be in addition to the above):
- (Penzance/Newquay) Plymouth to Edinburgh Waverley (Glasgow Central/Aberdeen) (350 miles of wires to include the extentions, however only 145 miles of wires to be able to run Plymouth to Glasgow Central)
- Guildford to Newcastle (35 miles*)
- Paignton to Manchester Piccadilly (100 miles of wires, or 10 miles if the line to Plymouth has been done)
- Birmingham to Stansted Airport (125 miles of wires)

*assuming replacing the sections of third rail with OHLE as well as removing a section of a diesel island, unless dual voltage rains are used, which would have the benefit of allowing the diversion route via Fareham to be used.

There would likely be plans for these routes to be electrified over the next 2 or 3 control periods with options to extend some of the routes over the same timeframe or because of the extra Voyagers that would be avaiable, i.e. extending some of the Newcastle/Reading & Guildford services to Gatwick, with plans for those to be electificated as well.
 

GarethJohn

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When travelling to Newcastle I will choose CC from New Street rather than TP from Manc Picc as I prefer them. On the way back i'll go on East Coast too York visit NRM and go use TP and Arriva home.
Is it a trip with the greatest choice of operator?

I rate them from experience.
1. East Coast.
2. CC
3. ARRIVA
4. TP
Northern or LM I didn't use.
 

NSEFAN

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Clip said:
What railway line is this then and how have you seen ticket prices for this line before the rest of us on here?
This is the UK. Anything the government does is automatically bad until the press tells me otherwise. ;)
 

Bungle965

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i know i was on a 221 from wolverhampton to manchester on sunday and when the train came in it was rammed full and when i got onto it there was nowhere to sit so i had to sit on the floor, not a comfy experience for 1h 30m personaly i think that virgin should give some of there voyagers to xc.
 
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