Israel - Palestine Conflict

[DerekC]

I post this thread because it seems right that the subject should have an airing on the Forum, but I appreciate that I am skating on thin ice. Whilst thinking about it and trying to find out more last night, I found the following video from "Jewish Voice for Peace" which seems to me to summarise the background very nicely.

The introductory page is at:

https://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/israeli-palestinian-conflict-101/

Q: WHAT IS THE STRUGGLE BETWEEN ISRAEL AND THE PALESTINIANS ABOUT?​

The violence between Israelis and Palestinians is often falsely presented as a conflict between two equal sides with irreconcilable claims to one piece of land.

In reality, this is a conflict over territory between a nation-state, Israel, with one of the world’s most powerful and well-funded militaries, and an indigenous population of Palestinians that has been occupied, displaced, and exiled for decades.

Q: WHAT EXACTLY IS “THE OCCUPATION”?​

The “Occupation” generally refers to the lands captured by Israel during the 1967 war that remain under Israeli military control, including the West Bank, East Jerusalem, the Golan Heights, and Gaza. Despite the partitioning of the West Bank into areas A, B and C following the Oslo accords to give some agency to the Palestinian Authority, Israel retains full military control over the territory, which is also home to nearly half a million settlers.
While Israeli settlers were withdrawn from Gaza in 2005, Israel retains control over the borders and airspace of the territory, restricting what is allowed in and out, and periodically engaging militarily in the territory.
More broadly, the Israeli Occupation can be understood as a system of military rule under which Palestinians are denied civil, political and economic rights and subjected to systematic discrimination and denial of basic freedom and dignity.

Q: WHAT IS THE NAKBA?​

The Nakba refers to the forced displacement of Palestinians that began with Israel’s establishment, and that continues to this day. Arabic for ‘catastrophe,’ Nakba is the word Palestinians use to describe the traumatic events of 1948 which resulted in the displacement of over 700,000 Palestinians.
It is impossible to understand the Israel Palestine conflict without understanding its context.

Q: HOW ARE PALESTINIANS TREATED IN ISRAEL’S DEMOCRACY?​

Although Palestinian citizens of Israel are entitled to vote and participate in Israeli political life, and several Palestinians are members of the Knesset (the Israeli parliament), they do not receive the same treatment as the Jewish citizens at the hands of the government. Israel still applies over 50 laws that privilege Jews over Arabs (as documented by Adalah: the Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights).
For example, the 1950 Law of Return grants automatic citizenship rights to Jews from anywhere in the world upon request, while denying that same right to Palestinians. Government resources, meanwhile, are disproportionately directed to Jews and not to Arabs, one factor in causing the Palestinians of Israel to suffer the lowest living standards in Israeli society by all economic indicators. Nearly 25% of Israel’s population is not Jewish.

Sooner or later this round of fighting will come to an end - until the next time, and the next. It has gone on since before most of the people posting on this forum were born. One day it must be resolved - but how?

 

[SargeNpton]

Never mind the before most of the people posting here were born, the roots of the problem can be traced back to between 1,000-1,300 years ago.

 

[Scotrail314209]

It’s escalated recently and will no doubt calm down again like before. This fighting has been going on for as long as I can remember. It’s unfortunately something that isn’t going to change soon.

 

[Carlisle]

This fighting has been going on for as long as I can remember. It’s unfortunately something that isn’t going to change soon.

Yes,Barak & Olmert possibly came fairly close to a potential deal but after the split in the Palestinian administration any peace efforts have at best just been treading water ever since.

 

[DerekC]

Yes, Barak & Olmert possibly came fairly close to a potential deal, but after the split in the Palestinian administration any peace efforts have at best just been treading water ever since.

I don't think there has been any chance of a peace deal since Netenyahu came to power for the second time in 2009. He clearly doesn't want one - or at least not on terms that could possibly be acceptable to any prospective Palestinian government. Everything he has done seems aimed to prevent there ever being a two state solution, and it's hard to see how a single integrated state is going to work without a huge change in Israeli policies towards both its own Arab population and those of the Occupied Territories.

 

[Carlisle]

I don't think there has been any chance of a peace deal since Netenyahu came to power for the second time in 2009.

Perfect timing for him to capitalise on all the division, disunity, war & strife that was soon to arise from the Arab Spring.

 

[daodao]

I don't think there has been any chance of a peace deal since Netanyahu came to power for the second time in 2009. He clearly doesn't want one - or at least not on terms that could possibly be acceptable to any prospective Palestinian government. Everything he has done seems aimed to prevent there ever being a two state solution, and it's hard to see how a single integrated state is going to work without a huge change in Israeli policies towards both its own Arab population and those of the Occupied Territories.

I am not going to comment on the rights and wrongs of the situation, but merely wish to point out that this outbreak of violence is worse in one particular aspect, which makes the outlook for the future even bleaker. Hitherto, the indigenous Arab population living within Israel's pre-1967 borders had largely accepted its situation as a minority group that was living close to (but not integrated with) the majority immigrant Jewish population, in many towns and cities (but not villages). The inter-ethnic violence in Lydda, Acre, Jaffa, Haifa and elsewhere over the last few days has undermined that mutual toleration and has grave significance for the future of Israel. Arabs throughout Palestine, including within Israel's pre-1967 borders where they comprise over 20% of the population, now seem to support the aim of Hamas to liberate it entirely from what they perceive as foreign occupation, from the river to the sea.

 

[brad465]

A large protest took place in London today in support of Palestinians, which surprisingly has been given decent BBC website coverage:

Thousands protest in London over Israel-Gaza violence

Organisers urge the UK government to help end the fighting between Israel and Palestinian militants.

www.bbc.co.uk

Thousands of people have marched through central London in support of the Palestinians amid ongoing fighting between Israel and militants in Gaza.

The organisers of the protest called on the UK government to stop allowing what they described as "Israel's brutal violence against and oppression of the Palestinian people".

Demonstrators marched to the Israeli embassy chanting "free Palestine".

It comes after the worst week of violence in Gaza and Israel since 2014.

At least 139 people have been killed in Gaza and nine in Israel since the fighting began on Monday.

Israel says dozens of militants are among the dead in Gaza, while Palestinian health officials say nearly half are women and children.

It came after weeks of spiralling Israeli-Palestinian tension in occupied East Jerusalem which culminated in clashes at a holy site revered by both Muslims and Jews. Hamas - the militant Islamist group which rules Gaza - began firing rockets after warning Israel to withdraw from the site, triggering retaliatory air strikes.

On Saturday, an Israeli air strike on a refugee camp in Gaza killed 10 people, while a Palestinian rocket killed a man in Israel.

A separate Israeli strike destroyed a high-rise building housing media organisations, including The Associated Press and Al Jazeera, plus a number of offices and apartments. The Israeli military said the building housed military assets belonging to Hamas.

The demonstration in London has been organised by the Palestine Solidarity Campaign, Friends of Al-Aqsa, Palestinian Forum in Britain, Stop The War Coalition, Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament and the Muslim Association of Britain.

A spokesperson for the organisers said: "It is vital that the UK government takes immediate action.

"It must stop allowing Israel's brutal violence against and oppression of the Palestinian people to go unpunished."

They said the bombardment of Gaza "which is killing civilians including children is a war crime", adding: "The UK government is complicit in these acts as long as it continues to offer Israel military, diplomatic and financial support."

 

[Gostav]

A large protest took place in London today in support of Palestinians, which surprisingly has been given decent BBC website coverage:

Thousands protest in London over Israel-Gaza violence

Organisers urge the UK government to help end the fighting between Israel and Palestinian militants.

www.bbc.co.uk

Maybe that is due to Israeli destroyed the offices of Al Jazeera and Associated Press which is not a good signal and manner for press.

 

[Scotrail314209]

I reckon that a ceasefire is probably on the way and that Israel are amping up the violence to cause as much disruption and damage as they possibly can.

Eurovision in Rotterdam is coming up next week, no doubt there will be uproar when they fly the Israeli flag in the parade.

 

[brad465]

I reckon that a ceasefire is probably on the way and that Israel are amping up the violence to cause as much disruption and damage as they possibly can.

Eurovision in Rotterdam is coming up next week, no doubt there will be uproar when they fly the Israeli flag in the parade.

I'd like to think all the carnage being created now and the attention this is getting worldwide is enough to say the ship has sailed on any chance of uproar being avoided at Eurovision.

 

[birchesgreen]

A large protest took place in London today in support of Palestinians, which surprisingly has been given decent BBC website coverage:

Protests in Birmingham too on Friday and Saturday, including in New Street's concourse.

 

[Carlisle]

Arabs throughout Palestine, including within Israel's pre-1967 borders where they comprise over 20% of the population, now seem to support the aim of Hamas to liberate it entirely from what they perceive as foreign occupation, from the river to the sea.

I’m not sure that’s true of all Israeli & West Bank Arabs, a sizeable number of whom probably lead reasonable day to day lives, in comparison to countries surrounding Israel, but certainly does apply to Gaza & urgently needs solving or it’ll just continue or get worse .

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Interesting comment-article in the New York Times (might need registration to read) that suggests that the current flair up is the result of both Hamas and Netanyahu having a vested interest in inflaming tensions in order to prevent the formation of a centrist Israeli Government that would for the first time have included Israeli Arab parties - and therefore reduced support for the extremists on both sides. I don't know enough about the situation to judge how accurate it is, but it seems plausible and thought-provoking.

The latest rerun of their long-running nasty show is happening now because both were staring at an amazing breakthrough shaping up between Israeli Jews and Israel Arab Muslims — and, like the pro-Trump mob on Jan. 6, they wanted to destroy the possibility of political change before it could destroy them politically.

(snip)

And this is what was opening: In the wake of Israel’s fourth election, and Netanyahu’s failure to form a government, a national unity coalition was taking shape in Israel — under the leadership of the secular-centrist Yair Lapid and the religious-rightist Naftali Bennett. They were on the verge of forging a cabinet that would include both Israeli Jews and, for the first time ever, an Israeli Arab Islamist party.

Here is the headline in Israel’s Haaretz newspaper online from last Sunday, May 9, just before the latest Hamas-Israel conflict erupted in full: “Israel Coalition Talks: Bennett’s Party Expects to Form Gov’t ‘This Week,’ After Meeting With Islamist Leader.”

The story went on to say that, “Bennett met with United Arab List Chairman Mansour Abbas Sunday, leading members of his party to believe that a government may be formed ‘this week,’ ending Israel’s political deadlock after four elections in under two years.”

The United Arab List, also known as Raam, headed by Mansour Abbas is an Israeli Arab “Islamic movement” party that comes from the same broad realm of political Islam that Hamas does, except that it is nonviolent; recognizes Israel; and is focused on getting Israeli Arabs — particularly Muslim Bedouins — more resources, more police and more jobs for their towns and neighborhoods in Israel, just the way ultra-Orthodox Jewish Israeli parties do.

Abbas had broken away from the coalition of Israeli Arab parties — the Joint List, which is more focused on Palestinian nationalism — and won four seats on his own to push his agenda. And since neither Netanyahu’s coalition nor the opposition coalition that was emerging, led by Lapid and Bennett, had enough votes to form a government, Abbas’s four seats made him the kingmaker of Israeli politics. Netanyahu tried to court him at first, but a small openly racist, anti-Arab faction in Bibi’s coalition (Bibi’s Proud Boys) refused to sit in a cabinet with Israeli Arabs.

That is what gave this emerging opposition national unity coalition an opportunity to put together a broad government that for the first time ever would have included right-wing pro-settler Zionist parties, left-wing secular progressive parties and a pro-Islamist Israeli Arab party — and possibly, eventually, even secular Arab parties.

It would have broken the mold of Israeli politics forever. And that is why the local Jan. 6-style opponents — in Israel and Hamas — were determined to blow it up.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Interesting comment-article in the New York Times (might need registration to read) that suggests that the current flair up is the result of both Hamas and Netanyahu having a vested interest in inflaming tensions in order to prevent the formation of a centrist Israeli Government that would for the first time have included Israeli Arab parties - and therefore reduced support for the extremists on both sides. I don't know enough about the situation to judge how accurate it is, but it seems plausible and thought-provoking.

I have heard that both Hamas and Israel are at fault for causing the flare up, this makes it seem much more believable.

One thing annoying me is that the US is blocking the UN statement for ceasefire that even China have signed.

 

[daodao]

I’m not sure that’s true of all Israeli & West Bank Arabs, a sizeable number of whom probably lead reasonable day to day lives, in comparison to countries surrounding Israel, but certainly does apply to Gaza & urgently needs solving or it’ll just continue or get worse .

Reports on various news media suggest otherwise, e.g.

Battle against Israel spreads throughout entire occupied territories (presstv.com)

The battle against the Israeli regime’s escalated atrocities against Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank has spread throughout the borders that used to demarcate Palestine before the regime’s 1948 invasion.

Israeli oppression united Palestinians on both sides of the Green Line - Palestinians - Haaretz.com

The Palestinians in the West Bank and in Israel live in two separate cantons. The government’s treatment of them is different, and economic and social differences between them are not insignificant. Yet in the past week it looked like the Green Line had disappeared for a moment, and it became clear that it’s not difficult for Palestinians on both sides to find a common denominator and take to the streets in the face of bullying and oppression. Residents of East Jerusalem or Nablus found themselves in the same position as those of Nazareth, Umm al-Fahm or even the mixed-population cities of Haifa and Lod.

IMO, this is significant, particularly in mixed population towns like Lydda, and has profound implications for the longer term.

As this is a rail forum, readers may be interested that Lydda is the key railway junction in Israel, without which rail services there would be fragmented. It was deliberately seized in 1948, despite being allocated to the Arab zone under the 1947 UN partition, by order of the Palmach commander Yitzchak Rabin (later awarded the Nobel Peace prize!), who expelled most of its Arab inhabitants (what is now called ethnic cleansing), but left some key workers so that the railways could continue to run - hence its mixed population today.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Maybe that is due to Israeli destroyed the offices of Al Jazeera and Associated Press which is not a good signal and manner for press.

It is that which has got my attention recently. Just imagine being a journalist seeing your office building bombed out of existence. And then looking a bit deeper into the politics, look at a map of the region from 50-60 years ago and look at one from now - how would you feel if your own country had been obliterated like that!

 

[JamesT]

I have heard that both Hamas and Israel are at fault for causing the flare up, this makes it seem much more believable.

One thing annoying me is that the US is blocking the UN statement for ceasefire that even China have signed.

Allegedly the draft statement failed to mention Hamas firing rockets into Israel, hence the US not supporting the statement as they perceive that as biased against Israel.

 

[Carlisle]

It was deliberately seized in 1948, despite being allocated to the Arab zone under the 1947 UN partition, by order of the Palmach commander Yitzchak Rabin

Not an event that in hindsight hopefully many would choose to defend.

Ive not researched the number of countries that’ve acquired land under what’’d now be considered highly controversial circumstances, but it’s a pretty safe bet the list would be lengthy

 

[Typhoon]

Interesting comment-article in the New York Times (might need registration to read) that suggests that the current flair up is the result of both Hamas and Netanyahu having a vested interest in inflaming tensions in order to prevent the formation of a centrist Israeli Government that would for the first time have included Israeli Arab parties - and therefore reduced support for the extremists on both sides. I don't know enough about the situation to judge how accurate it is, but it seems plausible and thought-provoking.

Definitely more than plausible. Natanyahu is facing charges of bribery, fraud and breach of trust (brought by the Israeli Attorney General so there is presumably some pretty firm evidence, the Attorney General was appointed to his previous position by Natanyahu, and had his support for this one). Being the nation's saviour might sway those judging him, encourage leniency or postpone the case entirely. Israel also has a very divided parliament, Natanyahu's party has most seats (30 out of 120) so there needs to be a coalition. There appear to be 15 parties, after the centrist (opposition) party, the next party has 9 seats so coalitions encompass a number of parties. Negotiations have been going on (and going nowhere) since the start of April. If they can't be resolved by next month, the Knesset tries to find someone with majority support, otherwise new elections. Both Netanyahu's party (Likud) and the Defense Minister's party lost significant numbers of seats last time around. They may well look to recover them.

As regards Hamas, I think you would struggle to find anyone who reckons they are doing a decent job in the Gaza strip or on the West Bank, the current disturbance seems to have caused the 2021 elections to be postponed indefinitely. (With opinion polls suggesting that they might not do so well). How convenient! Possibly postponed until it looks like they can claim a victory so probably a decade or two away.

Natanyahu charges:- https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-47409739
Otherwise Wikipedia pages on Elections in Palestine, 2021 Israeli Legislative election

Maybe that is due to Israeli destroyed the offices of Al Jazeera and Associated Press which is not a good signal and manner for press.

Al Jazeera I can understand they wouldn't be too worried about but Associated Press, I would have thought, was a dangerous step, especially if a journalist or camera operator had died. OK, they are likely to be locals but I would be surprised if there wasn't a bond between locals and those in NYC that went beyond nationalities.

 

[JamesT]

As regards Hamas, I think you would struggle to find anyone who reckons they are doing a decent job in the Gaza strip or on the West Bank, the current disturbance seems to have caused the 2021 elections to be postponed indefinitely. (With opinion polls suggesting that they might not do so well). How convenient! Possibly postponed until it looks like they can claim a victory so probably a decade or two away.

My understanding was that Hamas only controlled Gaza, whilst Fatah control the West Bank. I believe they have held elections in only one of the two places before. I would think Fatah might be keen on holding the ones in the West Bank so they can portray themselves as the sensible administrators that keep things going.

Al Jazeera I can understand they wouldn't be too worried about but Associated Press, I would have thought, was a dangerous step, especially if a journalist or camera operator had died. OK, they are likely to be locals but I would be surprised if there wasn't a bond between locals and those in NYC that went beyond nationalities.

Israel claim (though haven't provided any evidence) that the building was also being used by Hamas. I guess they're hoping people heed the warnings they give before airstrikes to minimise civilian casualties and not make themselves look worse.

 

[SargeNpton]

Israel claim (though haven't provided any evidence) that the building was also being used by Hamas. I guess they're hoping people heed the warnings they give before airstrikes to minimise civilian casualties and not make themselves look worse.

Is Hamas giving any warning before firing rockets into Israel?

 

[Typhoon]

My understanding was that Hamas only controlled Gaza, whilst Fatah control the West Bank. I believe they have held elections in only one of the two places before. I would think Fatah might be keen on holding the ones in the West Bank so they can portray themselves as the sensible administrators that keep things going.

Israel claim (though haven't provided any evidence) that the building was also being used by Hamas. I guess they're hoping people heed the warnings they give before airstrikes to minimise civilian casualties and not make themselves look worse.

You are right about the West Bank, I don't know why I wrote otherwise, although the elections have been postponed

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas on Friday postponed planned elections amid a dispute over voting in Israeli-annexed East Jerusalem and divisions in his Fatah party.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middl...ayed-says-president-mahmoud-abbas-2021-04-29/
I struggled to find what i considered to be a reliable source.

Regarding the press building, I think it is quite likely that Hamas did use part of the building (lack of revealed evidence may well be down to how the evidence was obtained, more than lack of it). I read that the building owner did ask for slightly more time but that was refused. The Netanyahu government do need to be very careful with anything that might cause loss of life for a US citizen, they don't want Biden's position to be undermined. So far, he has been able to continue the traditional US stance on Israel but he is likely to come under greater pressure (from more than just 'The Squad') if, say, a reporter in their office was killed.

The situation is not helped by the front runners in the race to succeed the moderate, Rouhani, for Iranian President are both hard-liners!

The Squad - six left wing Democratic members of the House of Representatives of African, African-American or Middle Eastern descent.

 

[brad465]

The BBC live feed says a ceasefire has been agreed (no proper article yet).

 

[Scotrail314209]

Israel approves ceasefire to end 11-day military bombardment of Gaza

Celebrations broke out on the streets of Gaza as Israel and Hamas declared a ceasefire from 2am, bringing an end to 11 days of fighting that killed 232 Palestinians and 12 in Israel.

www.dailymail.co.uk

The two sides were still negotiating exactly when it would take effect.

Multiple reports said the truce was to go into effect at 2am local time, just over three hours after the cabinet's decision.

'The political leaders emphasised that the reality on the ground will be that which determines the future of the campaign,' the statement said.

A Hamas official said the ceasefire would be 'mutual and simultaneous'.

Wonderful news altogether i think.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Time to bring this back up again, Hamas launched fire balloons into Southern Israel, prompting airstrikes in return.

Israel strikes in Gaza after fire balloons launched

It is the first major flare-up since a ceasefire ended a conflict between Israel and Hamas in May.

www.bbc.co.uk

Israel says it carried out air strikes in Gaza overnight after Palestinians launched incendiary balloons from the territory, in the first major flare-up since an 11-day conflict last month.
The Israeli military said it targeted compounds belonging to Hamas, the militant group that controls Gaza.
The incendiary balloons sparked 20 fires in southern Israel on Tuesday.
Hamas said they were a response to a march by Israeli nationalists in occupied East Jerusalem.
There were no casualties on either side and calm had been restored by Wednesday morning.

Israeli air raids target Gaza for second time since ceasefire

Civil administration building, sites belonging to armed Palestinian groups and agricultural field targeted, sources say.

www.aljazeera.com

Israeli fighter jets have launched a series of air raids on the Gaza Strip for the second time since a shaky ceasefire ended last month’s 11-day war.

Palestinian sources on the ground said Israeli missiles on Thursday hit several sites belonging to armed groups northwest of Gaza City and north of Beit Lahia in the besieged territory. A civil administration building east of Jabaliya in the north was also targeted, in addition to an agricultural field east of the southern town of Khan Younis. No casualties were reported.

 

[daodao]

Time to bring this back up again, Hamas launched fire balloons into Southern Israel, prompting airstrikes in return.

The detailed make-up of the Zionist regime may have changed, but its behaviour hasn't. The new Israeli government had an opportunity to ban the provocative march (similar to Orangemen marching along the Garvaghy Road) through the old city in Al Quds/Jerusalem last Tuesday night, but declined to do so.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.