Kent & Essex Tram (KenEx Tram)

[atomicdanny]

Not sure if it's been posted before (I did search but couldn't find anything really, but of course can be corrected ) It seems like an interesting idea to be fair. (I did find similar with an Essex Tram, but thought that this might be different enough for a new post.)

KenEx Tram | Initial Link Proposal | North Kent | South Essex (kenextransit.co.uk)

 

[Typhoon]

There is a thread for the South Essex Rail Line ('£93 million Essex light rail proposed' - last post 28.09.20 ), there are common areas of coverage, such as Thurrock and Basildon. I found a piece on it which read

"A NEW £93million south Essex electric rail service will not go ahead if councils do not unite or merge together. The fully electric rail service – similar to London’s Docklands Light Railway – will see five stations built in Thurrock, Brentwood, Basildon, Southend and Southend Airport. But doubt has plagued the plans, published by the Association of south Essex Local Authorities, as the project relies on a south Essex 'super mayor' finalising a deal with the Government for adequate funding."

https://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/18...light-rail-line-set-fail-unless-councils-act/.
Two systems are clearly one or two too many.

I think a lot will depend on the (so called) London Resort being built and them supporting the Tram. It is going to require a considerable amount of government spending, particularly because of the need to link the two sides of the river at a time when cash is short, they are going to putting money into the Lower Thames Crossing and there will be pressure to put money into infrastructure in the north. There was a piece on Kent Online about it which indicated where support comes from

The idea has been welcomed by motoring pressure group FairFuelUK, South Essex College, business growth experts Locate in Kent and forklift dealer Acclaim Handling, which works on both sides of the river.

(from https://www.kentonline.co.uk/dartford/news/this-will-be-a-win-win-239629/)
This list seems very light if you want to drum up support.

 

[JonathanH]

There is a thread for the South Essex Rail Line ('£93 million Essex light rail proposed' - last post 28.09.20 ), there are common areas of coverage, such as Thurrock and Basildon.

That was a thread about a misunderstanding about some enhanced bus interchanges being deemed a light rail system. No one is going to build a light rail line for £93 million - it might just about be possible to build it at OO gauge for that price.

I suggest that this proposal has the air of fantasy about it as well, no matter what the perceived traffic is based on the flows over the Dartford Crossing.

The lack of any cost estimate does seem that this is very early days for a proposal very unlikely to see the light of day.

 

[telstarbox]

It's noticeable that they have put several organisations' logos on their website but none of the local councils on either side of the river.

Also one of the company directors is also on the board of "Brighton Main Line 2"

 

[eastwestdivide]

I suggest that this proposal has the air of fantasy about it as well, no matter what the perceived traffic is based on the flows over the Dartford Crossing.

I think I'd agree with you - the vast majority of the Dartford Crossing traffic is surely much longer distance in nature.

 

[Typhoon]

I think I'd agree with you - the vast majority of the Dartford Crossing traffic is surely much longer distance in nature.

As surely is the suggested traffic on the Lower Thames crossing. At the moment cross-Thames passenger traffic is accommodated by an hourly (usually single decker) bus, and half hourly, not particularly well patronised, ferry service. The idea that more than a handful of students would cross over to Essex for their education seems fanciful.

If, and its a big if, the London Resort ever gets built, a route from Ebbsfleet Station to the Resort might attract sufficient patronage, provided it was supported by the Resort (which seems to have permanent money troubles) but otherwise, probably a non-starter unless someone has money to throw around.

Incidentally, the Kuflink Stadium is the home of Ebbsfleet United (National League South), not exactly a go-to location!

 

[ComUtoR]

Not sure if it's been posted before (I did search but couldn't find anything really, but of course can be corrected )

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/crossrail-beyond-abbey-wood.194932/#post-4628348

I'd be interested to see what their numbers are for reducing traffic across the bridge. Their "Tunnel" is an interesting concept but I suspect that if it was that easy to drop in a rail tunnel in such a way it would have been done already. It would also be a lot more lucrative if they just made it a vehicle crossing using their "tunnel" and charged a couple of quid and made it light vehicles only.

 

[KenExTram]

Hi All, I'm more than happy to answer any questions regarding KenEx... i can see from various posts eyebrows have been raised at the solution!

I must stress the two projects linked above are two very different proposals, i hope you've all managed to realise the difference between the two?

While noting a point made regarding 'most who use the M25 travel further in nature', partly true... With 50million crossings being made every year, this is a huge number to tap into when 30% of those crossings is to very local destinations either side of the river, well within reach of the KenEx network proposal. A modal shift opportunity for those who work / live opposite sides of the river and wish to avoid occasional gridlock!

The Thames has been regarded a brick wall for many years within councils either side of the river, yet none of them have come up with a solution that addresses the issue. So we did!

Employment needs of thurrock / unemployment figures of north kent suggest healthy opportunities exists - not all these people own cars either, the tram opens up that opportunity.

Transport is a huge issue for Gravesham, Dartford & Thurrock. KenEx offers a new way to cross and has a very good business case independently of the theme park that has just submitted its DCO.

Current issues with Public Transport >
The cross river bus service (X80) is susceptible to traffic congestion on the dartford crossing - it doesnt have its own bus lane (unfortunately)...
And poor conditions on the river prevent ferry operations.

Would you use either knowing you might not get back home without a trip into london / back out or an expensive cab ride.
Resilience is key for higher take up!

On top of the resilience issue, both ferry & bus services do not fully support local business needs with their shift changes / hours of operation, another aspect KenEx can address with a robust timetable.

The additional benefit of having cross river rails is that freight can be shipped across the network and beyond. Logistics is a huge deal locally (DP World / Port of Tilbury + supply chain)... Any reduction of HGVs on local roads is seen as a positive.

With respect to the Kuflink interchange, this is a key location to interact with Kent Fastrack as well as ebbsfleet international.

The lower Thames crossing does not support the needs of local car drivers as its almost impossible to join the new crossing without adding considerable miles to every trip. Id be interested to see how many locals will be able to use it for their daily commute to work...

For now i'll stick to etch-a-sketch rather than the crayons

As said, any questions feel free...

 

[Bald Rick]

Just one question - who’s paying?

 

[KenExTram]

Just one question - who’s paying?

There are a number of ways a project like this can be funded; Private investment, regional re-generation grants, international funding all the way through to s.106 opportunities with local developers / authorities.

 

[Bald Rick]

There are a number of ways a project like this can be funded; Private investment, regional re-generation grants, international funding all the way through to s.106 opportunities with local developers / authorities.

1) How many other new tram schemes in the U.K. have been substantially funded this way?

2) who is paying now? Ie for the early stage feasibility work?

 

[JonathanH]

There are a number of ways a project like this can be funded; Private investment, regional re-generation grants, international funding all the way through to s.106 opportunities with local developers / authorities.

I'm guessing that we should be seeing this as a single route from Gravesend to Grays which has the "London Resort" as a key traffic objective, and that the stuff in South Essex is just froth.

Is the idea that it runs on the B2175 between Gravesend and Ebbsfleet's football ground, then via the London Resort and then somehow across the Thames avoiding both the concrete plant and the nature reserve.

It just seems too limited in the extra connectivity it produces for the cost.

A submerged tunnel solution for the Lower Thames Crossing was costed at nearly £2bn just for roughly this location for just the costing structure in 2013. Presumably it would now be more (although I note that the 'bore' of the crossing would be smaller).

Option B in https://assets.publishing.service.g...ata/file/199843/design-and-costing-report.pdf from 2013 appears to be pretty much what is being considered here.

The cross river bus service (X80) is susceptible to traffic congestion on the dartford crossing - it doesnt have its own bus lane (unfortunately)...

If there was more demand for public transport over the river, there would be a bus lane.

Is there a reason why a bus solution could not be used instead as an extension of the Dartford Fasttrack system? Even that infrastructure appears to have been paid for by government (at fairly modest cost) rather than by private finance (although I guess Arriva paid for the buses).

 

[KenExTram]

I'm guessing that we should be seeing this as a single route from Gravesend to Grays which has the "London Resort" as a key traffic objective, and that the stuff in South Essex is just froth.

The project is being split into phases... the first phase creates the river connection. From there out, will be a case of supply on demand. Already there is demand coming from East Thurrock as the port area undergoes another phase of expansion.

Is the idea that it runs on the B2175 between Gravesend and Ebbsfleet's football ground, then via the London Resort and then somehow across the Thames avoiding both the concrete plant and the nature reserve.

Our initial business case & route alignment did not include the theme park as their plans had been pulled. But having the alignment close by the theme park connection can be made very easily.

It just seems too limited in the extra connectivity it produces for the cost.

A submerged tunnel solution for the Lower Thames Crossing was costed at nearly £2bn just for roughly this location for just the costing structure in 2013. Presumably it would now be more (although I note that the 'bore' of the crossing would be smaller).

I think that depends on how limited you view this proposal. This goes way beyond moving just people.

The Highways England 'Option B' tunnel proposal is a very different design than that of the tram tunnel and a whole lot longer. The KenEx tunnel is 1.2km long.

If there was more demand for public transport over the river, there would be a bus lane.

Is there a reason why a bus solution could not be used instead as an extension of the Dartford Fasttrack system? Even that infrastructure appears to have been paid for by government (at fairly modest cost) rather than by private finance (although I guess Arriva paid for the buses).

The overall environmental footprint per passenger is far better for trams (no particulates at source etc) and trams have a higher take up rate than buses, ie modal shift is better. Fastrack has been very disappointing in its overall take up based on its initial objective. Its a pity fastrack didnt roll out trams from the get go... Im sure more would have supported the network.

On the Thurrock side where the tunnel portal hits land, having additional vehicular traffic wouldnt be favourable based on our community survey - Trams 95% favourable based on 500 local residnts who took part.

Of course, a lot of the comments im seeing here are based on what was... not whats going to be!

Expected development in this region is huge... having more forms of transport will only improve local traffic conditions.

1) How many other new tram schemes in the U.K. have been substantially funded this way?

2) who is paying now? Ie for the early stage feasibility work?

KenEx is privately funded.

 

[JonathanH]

The overall environmental footprint per passenger is far better for trams (no particulates at source etc) and trams have a higher take up rate than buses, ie modal shift is better.

Once we have electric buses, and my understanding is that some cities may go that way soon, particulates are no longer an issue. I concede that the considerations then become the relative pollution and environmental degradation caused by rubber tyres, steel production, batteries etc.

I guess there is a perception difference between light rail and buses although there is also a difference in cost.

Fastrack has been very disappointing in its overall take up based on its initial objective. Its a pity fastrack didnt roll out trams from the get go... Im sure more would have supported the network.

Who would have paid for trams?

Presumably some segregated roads and fairly standard buses were affordable and light rail very much wasn't.

You've got two small towns, a hospital, a shopping centre, an area of some deprivation and office / industrial areas with car parks on the Fasttrack network and a parallel railway line served by suburban trains. I'm not sure it is natural light rail territory.

Is the idea that this area is going to change out of all recognition from what is there now?

 

[Bald Rick]

KenEx is privately funded.

Privately funded, or privately financed? If the former, I hope they have deep pockets.

Who is going to stump up a billion quids worth of private finance for this, and how does it get paid back?

 

[ComUtoR]

Transport is a huge issue for Gravesham, Dartford & Thurrock. KenEx offers a new way to cross and has a very good business case independently of the theme park that has just submitted its DCO.

Two points here. You state Dartford and Gravesham yet the map only shows the route coming up from Gravesend with nothing heading towards Dartford. With Dartford basically a car park for the A2 and M25 J1/2 are there any proposals for more local links this side of the water ?

The second point is more of how local people intend to use a Tram. Bluewater draws people in from both sides of the water but locally it draws people in from Bexley and Swanley and pretty much most of Dartford. Local traffic is hell on earth and the Fast track doesn't really provide a suitable service. Plenty of locals still pop over the water for a ninja trip to Lakeside. I'm interested why your focus hasn't been on the leisure aspect and a greater link between Bluewater and Lakeside. This seems like a missed oportunity.

The lower Thames crossing does not support the needs of local car drivers as its almost impossible to join the new crossing without adding considerable miles to every trip. Id be interested to see how many locals will be able to use it for their daily commute to work...

As far as I can tell; pretty much nobody. However, this isn't really the goal of the Lower Thames Crossing. If the Lower Thames Crossing serves its purpose and drives freight traffic and provides an alternative route for those using long distance travel routes then it will reduce the traffic locally. This will allow greater use of the Dartford Tunnel and QE2 Bridge for locals. I think you make a good point where there is a considerable volume of commuter traffic through the tunnel. If they had the ability to use a local tram service then yeah, I forsee a huge uptake in service. However, without additional local links nobody is going to switch their commute. As a commuter I need to leave my house, drop my car at a local station (with reasonable parking) and then on the other side I need to be able to get to my place of work. Unless the Tram drops me outside my workplace or within a reasonable walking distance; I just wouldn't use it. Consider local car use, parking charges, tram fare, buss fare the other side. TBH F"£$"£k It, I'll take the car.

A few generic questions :

Estimated Fares
Do you have any idea of fare prices end to end or will it be a more zonal approach to fares ? If there is a link to the London Resort, would a fare be included in the ticket price ? How do any projected fares compare to the price for the bus or toll ?

Journey times
Personally if the journey time was short. I can forsee people shopping in Bluewater and then nipping over to Lakeside. If this is going to be a Tram service where you are stopping every few minutes then I can't really see people using it for end to end travel. Will there be multiple routes and fast, stopping services ? What considerations have been made to journey times for commuting ?

Local resident discount
With the Tunnel offering a local residents scheme; is there any intention to offer the same ? With locals commuting between Kent and Essex the Local resident discount is an absolute Godsend. How do you entice people to switch from the car to a Tram and potentially increasing their daily costs ?

A2 Redevelopment
Are you working with the redevelopment of the A2 ?

Learning points
How much have you learned from previous Tram schemes. I've used the Croydon Tram scheme on a semi regular basis and find it to be very useful. What have you learned from that scheme and how have you intergrated that into your network ?

Cheers in advance.

 

[KenExTram]

Once we have electric buses, and my understanding is that some cities may go that way soon, particulates are no longer an issue. I concede that the considerations then become the relative pollution and environmental degradation caused by rubber tyres, steel production, batteries etc.

KenEx is not driving this debate, buses (and other forms of local transport) by all means will continue to serve a purpose long in to the future irrespective of their propulsion method.

Public transport capacity in the area needs to be addressed to support growing demand. Cleaner methods need to be implemented and the right transport modes selected for their given performance for which they are to serve.

I guess there is a perception difference between light rail and buses although there is also a difference in cost.

There is a huge difference in initial cost... Over a 30yr study trams come in cheaper than buses according to independent transport studies

Who would have paid for trams?

Presumably some segregated roads and fairly standard buses were affordable and light rail very much wasn't.

You've got two small towns, a hospital, a shopping centre, an area of some deprivation and office / industrial areas with car parks on the Fasttrack network and a parallel railway line served by suburban trains. I'm not sure it is natural light rail territory.

Is the idea that this area is going to change out of all recognition from what is there now?

If you combine the populations of Dartford / Gravesham & Thurrock you are at similar levels of population as Croydon.. Who have trams & buses operating side by side and many covering the same routes...
Back when fastrack was first introduced im sure the county council didnt have in their minds how regeneration of the region would go... who knows?

All we know is... now would be a very good time to cross the river with a new method of transporting people & goods between destinations.

Over the past two years of meeting with councils, local businesses et al this project is certainly attracting attention for all the right reasons.

 

[Bald Rick]

There is a huge difference in initial cost... Over a 30yr study trams come in cheaper than buses according to independent transport studies

I’ve never heard that before. Could you provide a link to these studies?

Over the past two years of meeting with councils, local businesses et al this project is certainly attracting attention for all the right reasons.

Well it would. How much are they willing to contribute?

 

[KenExTram]

Two points here. You state Dartford and Gravesham yet the map only shows the route coming up from Gravesend with nothing heading towards Dartford. With Dartford basically a car park for the A2 and M25 J1/2 are there any proposals for more local links this side of the water ?

Right now Dartford has been removed from our near term plan and phase 1. This area is covered very well by fastrack after our original network was planned to extend to dartford.

The second point is more of how local people intend to use a Tram. Bluewater draws people in from both sides of the water but locally it draws people in from Bexley and Swanley and pretty much most of Dartford. Local traffic is hell on earth and the Fast track doesn't really provide a suitable service. Plenty of locals still pop over the water for a ninja trip to Lakeside. I'm interested why your focus hasn't been on the leisure aspect and a greater link between Bluewater and Lakeside. This seems like a missed oportunity.

The long term plan for the tram network will indeed look to those further away towns, and as such hope to attract users to satisfy employment needs of thurrock as well as retail and recreation.
At this time KenEx isnt looking at competing with Fastrack who have a very good service from ebbsfleet to bluewater, kenex plans to have an interchange around this location and work as a complementary service offering links to Thurrock.

You must also realise the port of tilbury cruise terminal will be running a shuttle service from ebbsfleet bringing passengers in for holidays as well as employment & freight.
There is much more to this than supporting a few ninja trips between the shopping facilities either side of the river.

The hospital is also a desirable destination for thurrock people who come under its catchment as closest health facility.

You may recall recently a new tunnel was approved between western quarry and bluewater, its design has been safeguarded for a tram

As far as I can tell; pretty much nobody. However, this isn't really the goal of the Lower Thames Crossing. If the Lower Thames Crossing serves its purpose and drives freight traffic and provides an alternative route for those using long distance travel routes then it will reduce the traffic locally. This will allow greater use of the Dartford Tunnel and QE2 Bridge for locals. I think you make a good point where there is a considerable volume of commuter traffic through the tunnel. If they had the ability to use a local tram service then yeah, I forsee a huge uptake in service. However, without additional local links nobody is going to switch their commute. As a commuter I need to leave my house, drop my car at a local station (with reasonable parking) and then on the other side I need to be able to get to my place of work. Unless the Tram drops me outside my workplace or within a reasonable walking distance; I just wouldn't use it. Consider local car use, parking charges, tram fare, buss fare the other side. TBH F"£$"£k It, I'll take the car.

A few generic questions :

Estimated Fares
Do you have any idea of fare prices end to end or will it be a more zonal approach to fares ? If there is a link to the London Resort, would a fare be included in the ticket price ? How do any projected fares compare to the price for the bus or toll ?

We would like to be competitive with prices to cross the river.

More importantly tap in / tap out with network partners would be our key goal. All very early days and this level of detail will have to be thrashed out with local operators of both bus, rail & TfL.

Journey times
Personally if the journey time was short. I can forsee people shopping in Bluewater and then nipping over to Lakeside. If this is going to be a Tram service where you are stopping every few minutes then I can't really see people using it for end to end travel. Will there be multiple routes and fast, stopping services ? What considerations have been made to journey times for commuting ?

There are a myriad of journey options across the network, not all trams will stop at every stop, rail layout enables by-passing at 'tram stops' and other points to enable 'express' trams to pass by creating shorter journey times for specific routes.

As trams enjoy priority on the highway we know what our USP is here... which has driven this project this far to date!
Trip times is an important factor for local businesses... people dont like buses as they often get caught in congestion.

There is no better place locally as an example of congestion when the M25 or Dartford crossing sprawls out in to the community.

Local resident discount
With the Tunnel offering a local residents scheme; is there any intention to offer the same ? With locals commuting between Kent and Essex the Local resident discount is an absolute Godsend. How do you entice people to switch from the car to a Tram and potentially increasing their daily costs ?

Time is a key enabler here... If you know 100% you will be in work at a given time each day and can get home in the same confidence and, not need to spend 50mins sitting in a car/bus going nowhere across the Dartford Crossing. I know what option i would take, LRDS or not.

I'm not aware of EnsignBus giving a local residents discount on their X80 service... And i also know the ferry doesn't either. Therefore would a tram need to?
I guess the network operator could use a discount scheme for locals if they so wished to entice more out of their cars and on to public transport. This is an accross the board situation...

For KenEx, ticket pricing is a long way off at this point in time... Right now we are focused on ensuring the network foundations are in the right place to support growth of the area and that of the network too, with input from all local authorities.
That's not to say pricing hasnt been spoke about, because it has and, forms a huge part of the business case...!

All new housing developments are limiting car parking spaces, the future is very much biased to using public transport. It is essential that public transport is in place to support that concept.

A2 Redevelopment
Are you working with the redevelopment of the A2 ?

Learning points
How much have you learned from previous Tram schemes. I've used the Croydon Tram scheme on a semi regular basis and find it to be very useful. What have you learned from that scheme and how have you intergrated that into your network ?

Cheers in advance.

A2 redevelopment is out side of the scope of this project - the team are aware and have a seat at the table.

The core team behind KenEx are long in the tooth for light & heavy rail development. Lessons are constantly being learned in light rail. Inspiration and lessons learned come from all four corners of the globe, not just the uk.

KenEx have a seat with UK Tram, The APPLRG and many other formal bodies. We keep well abreast of latest technology and issues seen on all the latest projects.

Exciting times for the next 30yrs - regeneration & growth for South Essex & North Kent looks set to sky rocket..

I’ve never heard that before. Could you provide a link to these studies?

'UK Tram' is a very good resource if you are interested in how cost effective trams are vs buses (long term).
You can also find a lot of information on the APPLRG website.

Well it would. How much are they willing to contribute?

Broadly speaking that will depend largely on what it is they will get in return for their investment... land price increase due to tram stop - just one small detail developers consider when planning their next project.

 

[Bald Rick]

UK Tram' is a very good resource if you are interested in how cost effective trams are vs buses (long term).
You can also find a lot of information on the APPLRG website.

Had a quick look. Couldn’t find any documents suggesting that. However, clearly trams are a better solution in cases where there are high traffic flows on established corridors, or where significant new development is expected to establish a corridor. Crucially, though, none of them involve having to build a bespoke river crossing of over half a mile.

Broadly speaking that will depend largely on what it is they will get in return for their investment... land price increase due to tram stop - just one small detail developers consider when planning their next project.

Well that’s the crux of it. ‘It depends’ doesn’t really cut it when you’re in front of a commercial lender who wants to know, with certainty, when she is going to get her billion quid back, with 6% a year in the interim. Or dare I say even the first few million quid, whichever is what you’ll need to get this beyond the lines on a map stage.

 

[ComUtoR]

Many thanks for the replies.

 

[30907]

The additional benefit of having cross river rails is that freight can be shipped across the network and beyond. Logistics is a huge deal locally (DP World / Port of Tilbury + supply chain)... Any reduction of HGVs on local roads is seen as a positive.

I am intrigued by the notion of a light rail that can take HGV traffic. I know VW had a CargoTram in Dresden, but I can't see a Grays to Gravesend tram making a dent in the logistics market. Comment?

More generally, I can't see how the proposal will make much difference to people living in the car-centred southern suburbs of Gravesend - or indeed the suburbia north of Grays. Where are the major centres of employment in relation to either terminus?

 

[KenExTram]

Had a quick look. Couldn’t find any documents suggesting that. However, clearly trams are a better solution in cases where there are high traffic flows on established corridors, or where significant new development is expected to establish a corridor. Crucially, though, none of them involve having to build a bespoke river crossing of over half a mile.

This paper is a good read, sets out the challenges > https://uktram.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Briefing_Paper_-_Costs_of_Light_Rail_Schemes.pdf

Along with: -

Why trams are cheaper than buses

Trams are a seemingly expensive outlay for a city. They require permanent tracks and overhead wires. At least that’s how the figures can…

medium.com

Trams are cheaper per passenger km than buses in the right circumstances - Bath & Bristol Area Trams Association

Note: whilst the second item below is from 2002, the point it makes is valid ie trams in dense routes are much cheaper in £s per passenger km than buses. The comparison is valid because Buchanan used contemporaneous bus and tram costs, and these have both inflated at more or less the same rates.

bathtrams.uk

[/QUOTE]

Well that’s the crux of it. ‘It depends’ doesn’t really cut it when you’re in front of a commercial lender who wants to know, with certainty, when she is going to get her billion quid back, with 6% a year in the interim. Or dare I say even the first few million quid, whichever is what you’ll need to get this beyond the lines on a map stage.

This is why in my original reply to your question 'how is this being funded' i pointed out many different funding streams...

The team behind KenEx are very passionate while also realistic. Being able to rise above the passion for light rail and deliver a network fit for purpose that will be operational long into the future is what the team is all about.
No one is saying this will be easy, of course challenge to fund a project such as this exist - its by no means 'in the bag'. One thing you dont have to worry about right now is this project has not cost the tax payer a penny!

I recall Edinburgh Tram having huge difficulties, delays, budget over running, more delays... etc...
Yet.... https://www.insider.co.uk/company-results-forecasts/edinburgh-trams-airport-journey-time-13821878
A good news story for its profit & success... some years later of course!

KenEx will not be as complex (even with its rather modest river crossing) and its operation will compliment and support local growth without reliance on a car to do basic trips. Rome wasnt built in a day, as such nor will KenEx. Much like Croydon and many other tram networks, they grow, they evolve... How quickly that happens will largely be driven by demand... Demand by new residential developments. Demand by businesses & Employment. Recreational needs also come into the mixing pot but arent the core of sustainable operation long term.

Are you a fan of light rail Bald Rick?

I am intrigued by the notion of a light rail that can take HGV traffic. I know VW had a CargoTram in Dresden, but I can't see a Grays to Gravesend tram making a dent in the logistics market. Comment?

Just think about the supermarket distribution hubs locally... their goods mostly coming from DPW & PoT... Tesco on the north shore and Sainsbury's on the south... Littlebrook site will also become a logistics hub... they will need links across the river for various reasons. Tram minimodal is an opportunity that can support this sector.

This isnt about removing 'all' HGV shipments, its about a pragmatic approach to what suits local business need with an aim of HGV reduction. The map above will evolve as the area around it develops.
Its scope is much more than Grays to Gravesend.

More generally, I can't see how the proposal will make much difference to people living in the car-centred southern suburbs of Gravesend - or indeed the suburbia north of Grays. Where are the major centres of employment in relation to either terminus?

Employment Hubs on Thurrock's plan
Port of Tilbury
DP World
Thames Enterprise Park
The Urban development of Lakeside basin
Purfleet on Thames - Regeneration

Each of these employment hubs are looking at ways to reduce their carbon footprint, have less car parking space and more land returning profit based on using every square meter possible for production.
Local road capacity is at bursting point, even after the A13 has been given its extra lane, local roads will not support the needs of industry... When Thames Enterprise Park & DPW reach their full potential motor cars wont be a viable option. People movers like trams & buses will be needed.

Furthermore, all new housing developments are down to an absolute minimum when it comes to private car parking spaces. Gone of the days of homes with a nice big drive & garage to park 3 cars. You can already see this at Chafford 100 and Ebbsfleet. Cars parked way beyond limits, due to existing poor public transport.

When the suburbs start to operate & think like Central London, then maybe we will reduce congestion and get moving again.

The population density of Thurrock, Gravesham & Dartford is already close to that of Croydon... Its about time we had public transport that supported that!

 

[Bald Rick]

Are you a fan of light rail Bald Rick?

I’m certainly an advocate of well thought out transport projects that deliver a clear net socio-economic benefit.

I’m mode agnostic (with a leaning toward rail based schemes).

I also wouldn’t call a crossing of the Thames downstream of the Dartford Tunnel as ‘modest’.


The issue with funding is that you are going to need tens of millions, probably nearly £100m, to get this project through the detailed planning phase. If you are serious about this, then you will already be talking to lenders in some detail about how you are going to secure that finance, and how they get their money back. You will also have a good idea about how the whole thing will be funded - no lender will give you even half a million quid if you don’t have a plan for that. You will also know, with a high degree of certainty, how much it’s going to cost to complete the initial stage of development - the option development, outline designs, public consultation, initial surveys, consent strategy, land strategy, ground condition reports, navigation strategy, environmental reports, commercial strategy, financing strategy, project management strategy, risk assessment, first stage estimate, assurance plan, and the business case of course. For a project of this size, doing that will be several million for the initial stage of development. That’s before you even think about selecting a route, and doing the work you need to complete in advance of initiating the formal consents process.

So, how’s it going getting hold of the several million you need to kick this off?

 

[KenExTram]

I’m certainly an advocate of well thought out transport projects that deliver a clear net socio-economic benefit.

I’m mode agnostic (with a leaning toward rail based schemes).

I also wouldn’t call a crossing of the Thames downstream of the Dartford Tunnel as ‘modest’.

KenEx is certainly not the biggest project the team have worked on in their own right or collectively.
This is fairly small by comparison. However, remaining significant in our approach.
Its generally not something consultants would scream about on a public forum.

The issue with funding is that you are going to need tens of millions, probably nearly £100m, to get this project through the detailed planning phase. If you are serious about this, then you will already be talking to lenders in some detail about how you are going to secure that finance, and how they get their money back. You will also have a good idea about how the whole thing will be funded - no lender will give you even half a million quid if you don’t have a plan for that. You will also know, with a high degree of certainty, how much it’s going to cost to complete the initial stage of development - the option development, outline designs, public consultation, initial surveys, consent strategy, land strategy, ground condition reports, navigation strategy, environmental reports, commercial strategy, financing strategy, project management strategy, risk assessment, first stage estimate, assurance plan, and the business case of course. For a project of this size, doing that will be several million for the initial stage of development. That’s before you even think about selecting a route, and doing the work you need to complete in advance of initiating the formal consents process.

So, how’s it going getting hold of the several million you need to kick this off?

Thank you for the lesson in planning something the team behind this project are very aware of... At this stage those finer details are very much in the private domain and will not be shared on a public forum.

 

[Bald Rick]

KenEx is certainly not the biggest project the team have worked on in their own right or collectively.

Fair enough. Which bigger projects have they worked on recently?

At this stage those finer details are very much in the private domain and will not be shared on a public forum.

Also fair enough. It will be interesting to see what happens next. When will there be some news?

 

[KenExTram]

Fair enough. Which bigger projects have they worked on recently?

Merseyrail, Kings Cross and Liverpool Street / Broadgate + a plethora of over seas assignments from European light rail, the middle east & Australia light rail. To more local projects currently running as alluded to above - Brighton ML2.
Over the past few years the team have been active in promoting sustainable transport solutions, we sit on the board of HS Developers UK, a business working with investors and prospective investors, mainly from overseas, looking to invest in major UK rail projects.

Also fair enough. It will be interesting to see what happens next. When will there be some news?

The next big milestone will be expected towards mid 21.

It was encouraging to see so many hits to the kenex website from RailUK recently... We thought it would be good to come see what opinions existed among rail folk of the scheme...
We will be sure to share more as progress happens.

 

[Roast Veg]

This project appears to have been in the planning stages since 2018. I also cannot find any link to delivered projects, though plenty to BML2. Is this just BML2... 2?

 

[Mag_seven]

This project appears to have been in the planning stages since 2018. I also cannot find any link to delivered projects, though plenty to BML2. Is this just BML2... 2?

Thread reopened to allow @telstarbox to provide an update

 

[telstarbox]

The Kent - Essex tram proposal was on BBC South East this evening - but no indication that it's being taken any more seriously by councils or the DfT