Kent & Essex Tram (KenEx Tram)

[Typhoon]

The Kent - Essex tram proposal was on BBC South East this evening - but no indication that it's being taken any more seriously by councils or the DfT

Quite agree. Since this thread was started, the company behind the 'London Resort' (London indeed) has gone into administration.

The man from the developers reckoned that it could be ready by 2030 (could being the word) and there are queues of unemployed people in Kent looking out for employment at the Tilbury Freeport - the Freeport is what, I think, has sparked any interest.

The potential future routes in Kent would be fast bus routes - hopefully faster than Fastrack.

Two chaps from the ferry company reckon that they could provide a lot cheaper service, just get a few more boats in. There is a precedent - although private, a ferry used to run from Belvedere to Fords, Dagenham.

 

[MP33]

I remember the adverts for jobs at Ford during a time of low unemployment. One man was saying what good money it is. The other man said only if you are the right side of the river. The first man then said, that is not a problem a ferry is now running.

 

[telstarbox]

If the ferry can't do evening or Sunday services it doesn't hold hope for the tram, even though I'd love to see it built!

I've seen people use it to go shopping in Gravesend from the Essex side before, presumably because there aren't as many High Street shops on the north side?

 

[Trainlog]

If the ferry can't do evening or Sunday services it doesn't hold hope for the tram, even though I'd love to see it built!

I've seen people use it to go shopping in Gravesend from the Essex side before, presumably because there aren't as many High Street shops on the north side?

Yeah you have more or less hit the nail on the head, The high street isn't a punishing walk from the pier head in Gravesend and there is a fair amount of shops on offer there compared to the Essex side. Usually when i use the ferry i get the train to Southend or Lakeside from Tilbury but its a gauntlet of roads and paths to get to the station.

 

[Vespa]

It's a long way from Croydon tram system otherwise there might have been an opportunity for some through running subject to system compatibility.

 

[Joe Paxton]

It's a long way from Croydon tram system otherwise there might have been an opportunity for some through running subject to system compatibility.

It could link up with Sheffield Supertram...

I remember the adverts for jobs at Ford during a time of low unemployment. One man was saying what good money it is. The other man said only if you are the right side of the river. The first man then said, that is not a problem a ferry is now running.

Ford used to run a ferry service from Belvedere (south side of the river near Erith) to its Dagenham plant for workers, but this ceased in 2004:

News Shopper - End of road for factory ferry

A PRIVATE ferry service carrying the borough's Ford workers across the river has been axed after more than 30 years.

Ford says there are so few workers using the ferry from Belvedere, since Dagenham stopped producing cars in 2002, it can longer justify the expense.
[...]

 

[Jammy Dodger]

Why is a tram preferred, rather than DLR-type light rail (which, contrary to public opinion, are very different things)?

 

[Typhoon]

If the ferry can't do evening or Sunday services it doesn't hold hope for the tram, even though I'd love to see it built!

I've seen people use it to go shopping in Gravesend from the Essex side before, presumably because there aren't as many High Street shops on the north side?

I quite like Gravesend as a place, it has character but I wouldn't put it down as a premier shopping location. There will be some who will go there, but not enough. I hope to use it this year to have a mooch round one or both of the forts. But even with the freeport, I don't see stacks of demand. I am sure an enhanced ferry service and buses (as there are at the moment) could cope. Anyone crossing from the Dartford area would use the bridge/ tunnel. To me it is a solution looking for a problem.

They reckon that most will be privately funded - but most is not all. The local councils (especially Thurrock) don't have the money and, if government is putting a hold on some rail developments in the north and indicating that HS2 won't initially get to Euston initially, I don't see how they can justify money spent here. 'Levelling Up' should mean something after all and although Gravesend isn't exactly Belgravia, there are a lot more places that need support than it does.

 

[Basil Jet]

'Levelling Up' should mean something after all and although Gravesend isn't exactly Belgravia, there are a lot more places that need support than it does.

Few places are grimmer than Grays!

 

[Busaholic]

Few places are grimmer than Grays!

With the dire state Thurrock Council has got into under Tory control, a return to Labour is a cast-iron certainty after the local elections, even though central government will retain effective control for some while yet,

 

[Fleetmaster]

Genuinely hard to imagine who would make use of this service, at least in sufficient numbers.

If someone has the money to put rails across the Thames, then do something genuinely useful like facilitate through trains from the Essex main lines to the Kent main lines, removing the hassle of going through London. Surely would have freight potential too, connecting the Chunnel with Tilbury.

 

[Roast Veg]

Genuinely hard to imagine who would make use of this service, at least in sufficient numbers.

If someone has the money to put rails across the Thames, then do something genuinely useful like facilitate through trains from the Essex main lines to the Kent main lines, removing the hassle of going through London. Surely would have freight potential too, connecting the Chunnel with Tilbury.

Are the two not already connected adequately at Dagenham?

 

[Jammy Dodger]

Are the two not already connected adequately at Dagenham?

Yes, but only via HS1/CTRL

 

[zwk500]

Yes, but only via HS1/CTRL

Ripple lane exchange sidings will be more than sufficient for the volume of cargo being shipped between Tilbury and the Channel Tunnel. In fact, a headshunt would probably be overkill.

Apologies for being late to the party, I don't normally come on this part of the forum.

Are you a fan of light rail Bald Rick?

This question raises a big red flag for me - is this project about serving a transport need or about building a light rail system because trams are great?

Just think about the supermarket distribution hubs locally... their goods mostly coming from DPW & PoT... Tesco on the north shore and Sainsbury's on the south... Littlebrook site will also become a logistics hub... they will need links across the river for various reasons. Tram minimodal is an opportunity that can support this sector.

This isnt about removing 'all' HGV shipments, its about a pragmatic approach to what suits local business need with an aim of HGV reduction. The map above will evolve as the area around it develops.
Its scope is much more than Grays to Gravesend.

There might be scope for individual high-value packages (such as shop-to-shop transfer between Lakeside and Bluewater) to go by tram minimodal (in the same way GWR used to take consignments from Cornwall to London in HST Guard's vans) but isn't 99% of the logistics business in that area about big bulk flows? The Orion-type theory of an EMU of parcels into a city centre station only really works, well, in the city centre. I don't know the area dynamics overly well but the rail dynamics of the area are for bulk flows heading to Wembley or Acton yard and beyond, with nothing really transferring from Kent to Essex by rail. How many HGVs are crossing the Dartford crossing that aren't using the M2/20 or M11?
Although part of me would love to see some swapbodies on a trailer behind a tram. It'd be a wonderful photo.

AFAICT, your main market is that which is currently served by the Gravesend Ferry. It's a very expensive tunnel for people to seek employment in warehouse handling jobs - I've no doubt it'd be handy for those who would use it but it isn't going to be cheap. For comparison the recent Tideway Sewer (7m diameter so reasonably close approximation) cost £4.3bn for 25km - that's £172m/km, so your tunnel is probably looking at £200m alone.

The population density of Thurrock, Gravesham & Dartford is already close to that of Croydon... Its about time we had public transport that supported that!

Croydon doesn't have a half-mile-wide river through the middle of it. This argument is like saying that Liverpool's traffic is just as bad as Manchester's and so it should have an orbital motorway that runs over the Irish Sea.

 

[Fleetmaster]

Anyone see any conceivable passenger potential for connecting the Southend on Sea line to the Kent High Speed lines, cutting out the London connection?

It's pretty weird, right?

How many HGVs are crossing the Dartford crossing that aren't using the M2/20 or M11?

Both sides of the crossing and the wider areas are heavily industrialized. There will be lorries of all sizes crossing on local trips every few minutes I would have thought carrying all manner of stuff. Lorries are cheap as chips to run around like this all day compared to consolidating supply lines and moving depots or industrial units.

 

[Wolfie]

Few places are grimmer than Grays!

Tilbury certainly is!