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Kings Cross ‘uncrossed’ Layout/Remodelling - Information and Updates

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thealm

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I know there was a thread before about this before but since we have had 3 big closures since that thread was closed. It would be interesting to know any extra information. Hoping that it doesn’t go off topic as Kings Cross is my local termini and knowing is really helpful.
 
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markymark2000

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This has been discussed at length here before, https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ucture-discussion-aka-kings-uncrossed.158859/

View attachment 75132

Also I hope @MarkyT doesn't mind me reposting the link to his excellent enhanced version.. http://www.townend.me/files/kingscrossremodelling.pdf
Thanks for that. Not great to see 1 less platform and in my opinion, it looks more complex than it does now from a pathing perspective, you can't make the lines 'up' or 'down' as such, they will have to be used BiDi all day because of the point locations.
 

Brissle Girl

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Thanks for that. Not great to see 1 less platform and in my opinion, it looks more complex than it does now from a pathing perspective, you can't make the lines 'up' or 'down' as such, they will have to be used BiDi all day because of the point locations.
Given much of the suburban traffic no longer uses the station it seems reasonable, particularly given that it will just be back to the number before platform 0 was opened.

The benefit of a faster departure will be considerable, speed increases at very low speeds don’t seem much, but actually do give considerable benefit, as well as clearing the throat quicker for other services. And the remaining two platforms in the suburban shed will be longer I believe, which will give added flexibility.
 

yorkie

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Thanks for that. Not great to see 1 less platform and in my opinion, it looks more complex than it does now from a pathing perspective, you can't make the lines 'up' or 'down' as such, they will have to be used BiDi all day because of the point locations.
The lines through Gaswork tunnels are already used bidirectionally.

The term 'complexity' can have different meanings in different context. What matters is that you want more flexibility, more capacity and greater speeds (though it's not always possible to have all three; there are some schemes when speeds may have to reduce to increase capacity for example)
 

swt_passenger

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Thanks for that. Not great to see 1 less platform and in my opinion, it looks more complex than it does now from a pathing perspective, you can't make the lines 'up' or 'down' as such, they will have to be used BiDi all day because of the point locations.
AIUI after the various platform lengthening they couldn’t fit standard S&C for a third suburban shed platform in the remaining overall distance. But as has also been said, there aren’t supposed to be so many trains with Thameslink max taking them down the canal tunnels.

I also believe although the new P9 & P10 aren’t much longer, they will both be wider and straighter and be safer for the number of passengers arriving.
 

Bald Rick

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Thanks for that. Not great to see 1 less platform and in my opinion, it looks more complex than it does now from a pathing perspective, you can't make the lines 'up' or 'down' as such, they will have to be used BiDi all day because of the point locations.

There’s not many trains that will be using KX in future that can fit in the suburban shed...

The new layout is also much quicker, which also helps with capacity as Junction margins will reduce.
 

Fred26

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Does anyone know when control of Kings Cross area signalling transfers to York ROC?
 

John Webb

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One of the principle feature of the track layout is the removal of several 'double slips' which are expensive to maintain and slow to traverse compared to the simple points which have replaced them. This change should result in higher reliability in the infrastructure.
 

D365

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8 car GTR should fit or 1 x 5 car 80x or 1 x 5 car 180.

Won’t be many eight car units operating in the future as weekend Great Northern services are due to be diverted to St. Pancras?
 

bramling

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I’m not as familiar with the Cambridge side of operations, so assumed they all operate as twelve cars now.

Most off-peak are 8 cars, as are those on the peak shoulders too. There are a few 12-cars off peak but mainly positioning moves, although some are to cater for spikes in demand such on on weekend mornings. Amazingly the 0542 ex KX is a 12-car, doubtless a positioning move but carries just a tiny handful of passengers.

All the peak Baldock services are 8-car 365, as are some of the Peterborough peak services.

On top of that there’s the Cambridge stopping service which is solid 700/0. If that never goes through the core as is increasingly rumoured then that’s another 8-car to add to the list.
 

markymark2000

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Given much of the suburban traffic no longer uses the station it seems reasonable, particularly given that it will just be back to the number before platform 0 was opened.

The benefit of a faster departure will be considerable, speed increases at very low speeds don’t seem much, but actually do give considerable benefit, as well as clearing the throat quicker for other services. And the remaining two platforms in the suburban shed will be longer I believe, which will give added flexibility.
While it might not be planned, the second things go a bit off in the Thameslink, the platforms might be used more. I know you can't plan for disruption but when KX can be used for diverted Thameslink core services from Peterborough and Cambridge or for services from Moorgate, it's has the potential to have a good chunk more trains when disruption happens.

The lines through Gaswork tunnels are already used bidirectionally.

The term 'complexity' can have different meanings in different context. What matters is that you want more flexibility, more capacity and greater speeds (though it's not always possible to have all three; there are some schemes when speeds may have to reduce to increase capacity for example)
I know they are already used BiDi but they will have to be used BiDi a lot more with the new layout. I was under the impression that generally they used the lines as Up and Down lines and BiDi was only used when it had to be like P0 or when there is slight disruption to try and get services regulated quicker.
 

bramling

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I know they are already used BiDi but they will have to be used BiDi a lot more with the new layout. I was under the impression that generally they used the lines as Up and Down lines and BiDi was only used when it had to be like P0 or when there is slight disruption to try and get services regulated quicker.

Yes and no. Whilst it’s very true that under the current setup most services use their rightful direction lines, there’s a substantial minority of routes that require this not to be the case.

~ Anything arriving from the up fast going into platforms 6 to 9 will need to go via line B

~ Anything departing from platform 0 will need to go via line A

~ Anything departing from platforms 4 to 7 heading for the down slow will need to go via line C

There are of course some alternatives, for example in the first case above the train may instead cross to the up slow at Holloway and run via line C, or further cross to line B at Belle Isle.

The current layout allows some wonderful flexibility by making use of the crossovers at Belle Isle and/or Holloway, and it’s possible to pull off some very skilful parallel moves if the signaller is on the money. Time will tell if the new layout will work as well, being cynical one can’t help but think that a major motivator is saving costs by rationalising the number of points, and particular some of the more complex ones in the immediate throat.
 
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modernrail

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Am I right in thinking a train from Platform 0 has quite a bit more crossing over to do to get to the up fast in the new layout? If so, does the new layout mean certain platforms will be favoured over others for heavier use?

I have never managed to spot a partucular pattern of platform use for particular long distance destinations on the current layout despite using the station regularly. The same with Euston.
 

superjohn

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If so, does the new layout mean certain platforms will be favoured over others for heavier use?
Given the usage levels I doubt there will be the capacity for any platforms to be favoured. Some may be easier to reach from certain lines but that doesn’t help if there is a train already present in the platform. Platform allocations will be planned into the working timetable. Unless there is disruption the signallers will not be in the habit of choosing platforms on the grounds of convenience.
 

Brissle Girl

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While it might not be planned, the second things go a bit off in the Thameslink, the platforms might be used more. I know you can't plan for disruption but when KX can be used for diverted Thameslink core services from Peterborough and Cambridge or for services from Moorgate, it's has the potential to have a good chunk more trains when disruption happens.
Do you design a layout that is optimal for 99% of the time, or is compromised against its objectives to allow for the < 1% of occasions when the type of disruption you mention occurs. How many times in the last year would it have been useful I wonder?

Besides, if the platforms aren’t lengthened, there would be restrictions as to which services could use them, as well as allowing for the ability or not to route the additional trains in and out.
 

Skimpot flyer

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Looks like the new layout reduces flexibility re platforms 9 and 10 ?
Simultaneous arrivals and departures from 9 & 10 will not be possible. Not a problem during normal operations, but in those <1% times when Thameslink has a meltdown, it could prove an annoyance
 

bramling

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Am I right in thinking a train from Platform 0 has quite a bit more crossing over to do to get to the up fast in the new layout? If so, does the new layout mean certain platforms will be favoured over others for heavier use?

I have never managed to spot a partucular pattern of platform use for particular long distance destinations on the current layout despite using the station regularly. The same with Euston.

There isn’t really a pattern. Generally it seems to be the case that higher numbered platforms are favoured for GN services, although this is only loosely applied at best. Higher numbered platforms will be favoured for anything arriving or departing via the slow lines. Aside from that platform 8 seems to be favoured for “premier” services although that could be coincidence. There was once a restriction on diesel services using platform 0 but I believe that no longer applies.
 

edwin_m

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Time will tell if the new layout will work as well, being cynical one can’t help but think that a major motivator is saving costs by rationalising the number of points, and particular some of the more complex ones in the immediate throat.
That may be true, but rationalizing the pointwork probably also improves reliability. I believe the new layout is also faster, which probably improves capacity as well as journey time as trains spend less time blocking other trains as they pass through the throat.
Looks like the new layout reduces flexibility re platforms 9 and 10 ?
Simultaneous arrivals and departures from 9 & 10 will not be possible. Not a problem during normal operations, but in those <1% times when Thameslink has a meltdown, it could prove an annoyance
As mentioned above there are relatively few 8-car workings so it is likely the designers gave priority to providing capacity in and out of the 12-car platforms. If there are problems on Thameslink, approaching trains can be turned back at Finsbury Park (I presume they can run down towards Drayton Park and reverse there to avoid a flat crossing of the Fasts), or at St Pancras Thameslink, or if no other options were available could reverse in the Canal tunnels.
 

hwl

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That may be true, but rationalizing the pointwork probably also improves reliability. I believe the new layout is also faster, which probably improves capacity as well as journey time as trains spend less time blocking other trains as they pass through the throat.

As mentioned above there are relatively few 8-car workings so it is likely the designers gave priority to providing capacity in and out of the 12-car platforms. If there are problems on Thameslink, approaching trains can be turned back at Finsbury Park (I presume they can run down towards Drayton Park and reverse there to avoid a flat crossing of the Fasts), or at St Pancras Thameslink, or if no other options were available could reverse in the Canal tunnels.
The new layout also allows more parallel moves and far more options to stack trains waiting to arrive on the 5/6 tracks (3/4 for KGX assuming TL access is always kept clear) south of Copenhagen for most the of platforms.

It is also worth nothing that the platform lengths in the main shed will be 7x 11car 80x and 2x10car 80x giving plenty of options for growth by lengthening (which also work better with higher speed throat).
The new layout will also allow weekend part closures of a Gas Works tunnel and linked part of the throat with minimal (no?) effect on overall capacity.
 

bramling

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That may be true, but rationalizing the pointwork probably also improves reliability. I believe the new layout is also faster, which probably improves capacity as well as journey time as trains spend less time blocking other trains as they pass through the throat.

As mentioned above there are relatively few 8-car workings so it is likely the designers gave priority to providing capacity in and out of the 12-car platforms. If there are problems on Thameslink, approaching trains can be turned back at Finsbury Park (I presume they can run down towards Drayton Park and reverse there to avoid a flat crossing of the Fasts), or at St Pancras Thameslink, or if no other options were available could reverse in the Canal tunnels.

Thusfar the preferred option is to divert to KX. Drayton Park isn’t an option as the reversing berth there is 6 cars only. Not sure if a 700 is currently permitted to reverse at Canonbury but that’s certainly a viable option - albeit only one reversing berth.

The problem is that there could potentially be 4tph of 12-car trains approaching, and that requires some serious space, especially with the current Finsbury Park crew reliefs meaning there’s the likelihood of some of these having no relief.
 
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