Kirkstall Forge & Apperley Bridge

[Grumpy]

At the time these stations were being planned, the idea of anything longer than a 333 was probably thought to be so far in the future that building for longer than that wasn't considered. Especially considering that costs are in issue with any new stations. The replacement of some or all of the fleet with 3/6 car formations has only just been announced so it is understandable that this wasn't done. It does seem rather short-sighted to the casual observer now though.

Utter tosh. Read some of the RUS reports published in the past 6/7 years where the need for platform extensions up to 6 carriages on this route has been made clear.

 

[mm333]

Used Apperley Bridge for the first time this morning, only two of us heading to Shipley but plenty heading to Leeds.

As someone who is likely to walk down the hill from Yeadon, I was disappointed you can't access the bridge from the north side (alongside the road to the sewage plant). But as that's a private road owned by Yorkshire Water, they can't encourage the public to use it, I suppose.

 

[bluenoxid]

Utter tosh. Read some of the RUS reports published in the past 6/7 years where the need for platform extensions up to 6 carriages on this route has been made clear.

These stations have been planned for the last 4/5 although I do very much share the sentiment.

Are the bus services serving this station being used?

 

[yorksrob]

Used Apperley Bridge for the first time this morning, only two of us heading to Shipley but plenty heading to Leeds.

As someone who is likely to walk down the hill from Yeadon, I was disappointed you can't access the bridge from the north side (alongside the road to the sewage plant). But as that's a private road owned by Yorkshire Water, they can't encourage the public to use it, I suppose.

It might encourage people to pick the tomatoes

 

[Starmill]

One typically makes sure all of the platformsare sorted out before the new rolling stock... Rather than racingto find a solution to your plan...

 

[Condor7]

On RealTimeTrains it only shows a separate table for the Leeds to Bradford service, and for some reason is not incorporated into the main Aire Valley table showing all the other trains that pass through.

 

[louis97]

On RealTimeTrains it only shows a separate table for the Leeds to Bradford service, and for some reason is not incorporated into the main Aire Valley table showing all the other trains that pass through.

We are aware of this. The mileage for the station needed entering into the station database. This has been done and hopefully it should appear sometime early next year. Kirkstall Forge has also been added, so this should not be a problem when it opens.

 

[quantinghome]

Utter tosh. Read some of the RUS reports published in the past 6/7 years where the need for platform extensions up to 6 carriages on this route has been made clear.

The need for longer trains on Airedale and Wharfedale services has been known for some time. Not so sure about Forster Sq. to Leeds, which has lower demand (but is integrated into the other services for operational reasons). Metro would have had to second-guess the winning franchise's plans for the service (6 car trains were not a franchise requirement AFAIK).

You need to bear in mind the long and tortuous process it's taken to get these stations' funding approved. My guess is that Metro were well aware that platform lengthening would be required in the future, but couldn't convince the Kirkstall Forge developers or DfT to stump up the modest extra amount it would have cost. Remember they had to reduce the project costs when bidding for funding from the DfT, so any optional extras would have been a no no. Saying "We're probably going to need longer platforms sometime in the future - not quite sure when it'll be needed; probably sooner rather than later; depends on the next Northern franchise" is not a good way to convince the DfT to depart with their money.

I agree it was the wrong decision, but given the constraints Metro operates under, it's probably the wrong decision made for the right reasons!

 

[Tim R-T-C]

6 car trains have only been a plan for a short while - the plans from a couple of years back were to run double units, which would have been 8 cars. I don't think anyone really expected new stock to be on the books for the line with the 333s so young.

Still, with SDO, it is hardly a major issue anyway. Going to have to be used at Steeton, Connonely, Crossflatts, Frizinghall and Saltaire anyway (I don't know the Ilkley line at all).

 

[mm333]

Does anyone have the distance in miles and chains between Leeds and Apperley Bridge, please?

 

[Grumpy]

6 car trains have only been a plan for a short while - the plans from a couple of years back were to run double units, which would have been 8 cars. ).

Not so. To quote the Yorkshire and Humber RUS of Summer 2009 "The recommended option (AI1) is for existing local electric services to operate in six-car formation rather than four-car as currently".
The draft was published in 2008.

 

[quantinghome]

Not so. To quote the Yorkshire and Humber RUS of Summer 2009 "The recommended option (AI1) is for existing local electric services to operate in six-car formation rather than four-car as currently".
The draft was published in 2008.

Are franchisees obliged to follow the RUS?

I think we can all agree it would be better had the stations been built with longer platforms, but we're speaking from hindsight.

 

[Grumpy]

Are franchisees obliged to follow the RUS?

I think we can all agree it would be better had the stations been built with longer platforms, but we're speaking from hindsight.

It's nothing to do with franchisees, they didn't build the station.
The RUS took input from all parties at the time and concluded that in view of existing and proposed traffic, there was going to be a need for 6 car trains and platforms would need extension at some stations.

That's not hindsight, it's foresight. And traffic along the line has continued to grow significantly

Then 6 years later Metro build a new station that's only 4 coaches long. Sheer incompetence.

 

[quantinghome]

It's nothing to do with franchisees, they didn't build the station.
The RUS took input from all parties at the time and concluded that in view of existing and proposed traffic, there was going to be a need for 6 car trains and platforms would need extension at some stations.

That's not hindsight, it's foresight. And traffic along the line has continued to grow significantly

Then 6 years later Metro build a new station that's only 4 coaches long. Sheer incompetence.

With respect, it IS to do with the franchisee, because they decide what length trains to run. As far as I can see (and of course I'm happy to be corrected if I'm mistaken), the ITT for the northern franchise did not oblige the tenderers to run 6 car trains on these lines, and neither does the RUS, which is an advisory document.

Besides, the RUS doesn't even say the new station platforms need to be long enough for six coaches. It only recommends the busiest trains from Skipton and Ilkley be extended to six coaches. It gives no indication about the stopping pattern for these services. It even says explicitly "sufficient capacity will be available on services to and from Bradford Forster Square, even with the opening of Kirkstall Forge and Apperley Bridge stations" - see p107 on the link:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/rus%20documents/route%20utilisation%20strategies/rus%20generation%202/northern/northern%20route%20utilisation%20strategy.pdf

I think accusations of incompetence on the part of Metro are wide of the mark.

 

[Grumpy]

I think accusations of incompetence on the part of Metro are wide of the mark.

Neither the old or new franchisee decided what length platforms were to be built.
The RUS said (with input from the old franchisee)we are going to need 6 car trains on the Airedale Service . The new franchisee has announced (presumably with DfT support) that they are going to run 6 car trains on this service.
So building a 4 car platform seems pretty incompetent to me. And the excuses that that there were no plans for longer trains is simply untrue.

 

[Bantamzen]

With respect, it IS to do with the franchisee, because they decide what length trains to run. As far as I can see (and of course I'm happy to be corrected if I'm mistaken), the ITT for the northern franchise did not oblige the tenderers to run 6 car trains on these lines, and neither does the RUS, which is an advisory document.

Besides, the RUS doesn't even say the new station platforms need to be long enough for six coaches. It only recommends the busiest trains from Skipton and Ilkley be extended to six coaches. It gives no indication about the stopping pattern for these services. It even says explicitly "sufficient capacity will be available on services to and from Bradford Forster Square, even with the opening of Kirkstall Forge and Apperley Bridge stations" - see p107 on the link:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/rus%20documents/route%20utilisation%20strategies/rus%20generation%202/northern/northern%20route%20utilisation%20strategy.pdf

I think accusations of incompetence on the part of Metro are wide of the mark.

Indeed. And let's face it, most platforms along the Aire / Wharfe lines are not capable of handling 6 car formations in their current state. Even though Apperley & Kirkstall could have been built to accommodate them, in the current service patterns only Kirstall would receive 1 potential 6 car service per hour during the peaks. So if some peaks are increased to 6 car, doubtless these will run fast to and from Guiseley with the other strengthened services running fast to and from Shipley.

So Metro's / NR's / Arriva's priorities will lie elsewhere from some time. They've got some interesting decisions to make especially when it comes to handling places like Shipley with only 1 of 5 platforms current able to easily handle 6 car operations.

 

[quantinghome]

Neither the old or new franchisee decided what length platforms were to be built.
The RUS said (with input from the old franchisee)we are going to need 6 car trains on the Airedale Service . The new franchisee has announced (presumably with DfT support) that they are going to run 6 car trains on this service.
So building a 4 car platform seems pretty incompetent to me. And the excuses that that there were no plans for longer trains is simply untrue.

Sorry, you don't seem to have got the point. The RUS said "sufficient capacity will be available on services to and from Bradford Forster Square, even with the opening of Kirkstall Forge and Apperley Bridge stations". The new stations were planned to be served by the Leeds - Bradford FS trains. It's fairly clear from this that the RUS does not call for longer trains to stop at the new stations.

You say the new franchisee is going to run 6 car trains 'on this service' (presumably you are referring to the trains stopping at Kirkstall and Apperley Bridge rather than the Airedale trains running non-stop Leeds to Shipley). However, from reading the franchise announcements, it appears the 6 car trains will only run on the busiest services. I guess we'll have to wait and see the detail of this, but I wouldn't be surprised if the trains stopping at the new stations are not lengthened, as per the RUS.

BTW, I'm not trying to make excuses for Metro - I have no connection with them. Also, I wouldn't knowingly make untrue statements. But I do get a little frustrated at unsupported accusation of incompetence - there's plenty of genuine incompetence in public bodies already...

 

[johntea]

The TVM at Shipley station doesn't seem to allow purchase of a ticket to Apperley Bridge which seems odd considering it's been officially open a couple of weeks now...does the machine just need a reboot?

 

[Crossover]

The TVM at Shipley station doesn't seem to allow purchase of a ticket to Apperley Bridge which seems odd considering it's been officially open a couple of weeks now...does the machine just need a reboot?

Knowing Metro et al, it probably hasn't been put on the systems yet...either that or someone noticed Appley Bridge and decided to just run with that :P
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

6 car trains have only been a plan for a short while - the plans from a couple of years back were to run double units, which would have been 8 cars. I don't think anyone really expected new stock to be on the books for the line with the 333s so young.

Still, with SDO, it is hardly a major issue anyway. Going to have to be used at Steeton, Connonely, Crossflatts, Frizinghall and Saltaire anyway (I don't know the Ilkley line at all).

Is that because they can't be easily extended?

 

[Starmill]

The TVM at Shipley station doesn't seem to allow purchase of a ticket to Apperley Bridge which seems odd considering it's been officially open a couple of weeks now...does the machine just need a reboot?

I don't think I have come across anyone's TVM anywhere yet that has it in it!

 

[johntea]

Well at least the train had 'Next station Apperley Bridge' on the display

 

[Grumpy]

Called in around 11am and there were 68 cars in the car park. .

Called in today around 1pm and there were 145 cars in the car park (none in the big disabled area).

Usage growing nicely.

 

[exile]

Knowing Metro et al, it probably hasn't been put on the systems yet...either that or someone noticed Appley Bridge and decided to just run with that :P

Hmmm. Perhaps the new station should have been called "Bridge of Apperley" to save confusion.

 

[bluenoxid]

Better off calling it Rawdon Parkway or Idle Park and Ride.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Hmmm. Perhaps the new station should have been called "Bridge of Apperley" to save confusion.

If that ever was the case, there would be bound to be connection queries raised by confused passengers hoping to make website bookings for Bridge of Allan railway station..

 

[Bantamzen]

Better off calling it Rawdon Parkway or Idle Park and Ride.

Or Apperley Bridge, W.Yorks. The station is in Apperley Bridge, everyone in the area knows it as Apperley Bridge, so therefore....

Yes there may be a bit of confusion for some, but the simple addition of the W.Yorks should be enough to indicate that this is a station in that area and not a village in Lancashire. Rawdon and Idle are too far away to be considered as an alternative names (Greengates is closer than both), plus not forgetting that Rawdon is in the Leeds area whilst Apperley Bridge in Bradford.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Better off calling it Rawdon Parkway or Idle Park and Ride.

I can well imagine those archaic Victorian signs on railway property that stated "No Idlers" being quite apt for those at the named area that I have caused to be emboldened in your posting above, who had overstayed their time there....

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I can well imagine those archaic Victorian signs on railway property that stated "No Idlers" being quite apt for those at the named area that I have caused to be emboldened in your posting above, who had overstayed their time there....

The nearby "Idle WMC" is often cited for humour...

 

[IanD]

The nearby "Idle WMC" is often cited for humour...

The Idle Youth Centre always made me laugh too. It think it clsoed down due to apathy.

 

[jayah]

Called in today around 1pm and there were 145 cars in the car park (none in the big disabled area).

Usage growing nicely.

The train must go to the place that people want to go to ie Leeds.