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Lack of fast trains from Crewe-Milton Keynes in the morning peak

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Looking up the timetables for travel between CRE-MKC, which I may have to do daily this summer, and much to my surprise the first train is the 0856 which doesn't arrive until 1002. All other options are nearly twice as long or involve multiple changes. Seems ridiculous to me, especially as it would be commuting to Network Rail in Milton Keynes!

Any thoughts? Am I missing anything or is this really considered to be an acceptable peak time service?
 
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Ianno87

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Looking up the timetables for travel between CRE-MKC, which I may have to do daily this summer, and much to my surprise the first train is the 0856 which doesn't arrive until 1002. All other options are nearly twice as long or involve multiple changes. Seems ridiculous to me, especially as it would be commuting to Network Rail in Milton Keynes!

Any thoughts? Am I missing anything or is this really considered to be an acceptable peak time service?

Basically, what would be the standard pattern 0802 and 0902 stops at MKC are swapped for (I think) Nuneaton and Rugby (respectively) in those hours. Has been ever since December 2008. Suspect the MK commuter belt is much larger now than it was then, particularly with the Network Rail office relocating there between 2009 and 2012.

Provides fast peak time trains from the Trent Valley (MK->Euston already having other alternatives), and helps with Fast Line capacity in the busiest part of the peak.

But yes, it rather does stuff up Crewe-MK commuting options, which has a superb service the remainder of the day, including the evening peak.
 

Bletchleyite

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For years it's been the case that more people commute into MK than out of it, and that's probably even more pronounced now. And the number that commute out is not small - go and witness the 12-car people eaters in the peaks.
 

Esker-pades

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That's not correct, are you looking at a Sunday in error?

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...-2359?stp=WVS&show=pax-calls&order=wtt&toc=VT

..shows today's. There are plenty of them, the 0536 being the first.

There is however a bit of a gap at more reasonable times, which is caused by the omission of MKC calls to prevent VTs filling up with commuters.
05:36 arr 06:51
06:02 arr 07:13
08:01 arr 09:58 (via Birmingham)
08:56 arr 10:02

I wouldn't describe that as plenty for the AM peak.
 

Starmill

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There is a lack of fast trains from the north from anywhere to Milton Keynes C in the morning. From the top of the day until the end of the morning peak (ish):

0625 from Wolverhampton
0638 from Wolverhampton
0651 from Manchester Picc
0659 from Wolverhampton
0713 from Liverpool Lime Street
0846 from Manchester Picc
0918 from Birmingham New Street
0949 from Manchester Picc
0958 from Lancaster

As you can see there isn't an arrival at all between 0713 and 0846 - the latter arrival may suit anyone who can start work around 0900, but it does not serve Crewe.

I have not included WMT services above, some of which are of course now reasonably fast. Of note though from the new May timetable the 0547 Crewe to London Euston and the 0602 Walsall to London Euston will pass Milton Keynes Central non-stop on their way to London from Rugby and Northampton respectively.
 

Starmill

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Looking up the timetables for travel between CRE-MKC, which I may have to do daily this summer, and much to my surprise the first train is the 0856 which doesn't arrive until 1002. All other options are nearly twice as long or involve multiple changes. Seems ridiculous to me, especially as it would be commuting to Network Rail in Milton Keynes!
For your specific journey, are you driving to Crewe or is it going to be local to you? What time do you need to arrive at MKC by to be on time at work, and is that negotiable (say for example starting up to 30 min later than required)?

Looking ahead to summer, there is a Stoke-on-Trent departure at 0658 which connects to the 0846 fast arrival I have alluded to above, or can you drive to Stoke-on-Trent to meet it there? There is also a 0714 direct stopping train which arrives at 0855. If you can start work at 1000 there is a 0757 fast train to Rugby with a connection from there that gets you in at 0940.

Can you locate yourself anywhere more practical, or does it need to be Crewe? For example there is an 0851 express train from Coventry, a town about half way between Milton Keynes and Crewe, into Milton Keynes C at 0918.
 
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AndrewE

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I would say that this illustrates perfectly the apparent determination to wipe Crewe off the railway map - and especially to disadvantage the railway employees who still insist on living there (here.)
Why should someone living in Crewe be expected to drive to Stoke to commute to MK? Hasn't Stoke got its own congestion and pollution problems?
I have not included WMT services above, some of which are of course now reasonably fast. Of note though from the new May timetable the 0547 Crewe to London Euston and the 0602 Walsall to London Euston will pass Milton Keynes Central non-stop on their way to London from Rugby and Northampton respectively.
It's even more surprising that a couple of potential commuting trains don't call there (MK), even though the rest of them do!
Real dog-in-a-manger timetabling, and bears out what a Post Office senior manager friend said to me about 20 years ago, they were determined to eliminate employment in Crewe (and Liverpool too) because the staff were seen as "bolshie!"
 
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Starmill

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Most of the remnants of Crewe people change to the Stoke train to get into MK.
27 min to twiddle their thumbs at Stoke-on-Trent station every morning? I can think of better commutes...

I would say that this illustrates perfectly the apparent determination to wipe Crewe off the railway map - and especially to disadvantage the railway employees who still insist on living there (here.)
To be fair it affects just about everywhere. It's very slow to commute to Milton Keynes if you must be at work at 0900 from the West Midlands too.
Why should someone living in Crewe be expected to drive to Stoke to commute to MK? Hasn't Stoke got its own congestion and pollution problems?
They don't have to. They will be able to get the 0714 direct at a similar journey tome to changing at Stoke-on-Trent.
 

The Planner

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27 min to twiddle their thumbs at Stoke-on-Trent station every morning? I can think of better commutes...
Most have free travel so it doesn't matter to them and if they still have to do a 35 hour week then its whatever works for them.
 

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Awkward situation but I think the OP would have to ask themselves who should loose out so they got their ideal connection. No offense to them. I have a nightmare getting to work for my earliest shift so I feel their pain.
 

AndrewE

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Awkward situation but I think the OP would have to ask themselves who should loose out so they got their ideal connection. No offense to them. I have a nightmare getting to work for my earliest shift so I feel their pain.
It is galling though. You take a job in a railway town and buy a house within cycling distance of your employment location... and then 10 or 20 years later you are made redundant - but to travel to your new location involves 60 to 80 minutes extra commuting - and that's if you can find a direct train.

Ideal connection??? You live at a major railway node, you want to commute to another major centre of National Rail employment (on the very same trunk route - the WCML, no less) but there are no direct trains at commuting times? (but there are at other times of the day)
And it's not even as though the house you bought is particularly saleable either...
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-79739144.html Any takers? (Guide price £25k, and that's not a mistake!)
 
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Starmill

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Ideal connection??? You live at a major railway node, you want to commute to another major centre of National Rail employment (on the very same trunk route - the WCML, no less) but there are no direct trains at commuting times? (but there are at other times of the day)
But which fast service do you propose calls that does not already?

The 0628 from Crewe calls at Nuneaton, then the train above from Wolverhampton reoccupies platform 4 almost immedietly, with the same thing happening to the 0653. The 0718 calls at Stafford, then passes Milton Keynes Central with the 0700 Manchester Picc to London Euston just behind. The 0757 calls at Rugby and is then followed by the 0735 from Manchester Picc. The 0823 calls at Stafford and is then followed by the 0540 from Glasgow Central. To shift any of these around would risk busting the fast line paths used by WMT, for commuter trains almost certainly carrying rather more people than VT's services. So the only options are to withdraw one of those calls at Nuneaton or Rugby or to withdraw a service from the timetable altogether. Can you see VT accepting the need to withdraw the 0700 Manchester Picc to London Euston, or WMT removing a peak commuter service between Northampton and London so that Crewe to Milton Keynes Central can be adequately served?

There are no up fast East Coast services that call at Stevenage either in the morning peak.
 
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For your specific journey, are you driving to Crewe or is it going to be local to you? What time do you need to arrive at MKC by to be on time at work, and is that negotiable (say for example starting up to 30 min later than required)?

Looking ahead to summer, there is a Stoke-on-Trent departure at 0658 which connects to the 0846 fast arrival I have alluded to above, or can you drive to Stoke-on-Trent to meet it there? There is also a 0714 direct stopping train which arrives at 0855. If you can start work at 1000 there is a 0757 fast train to Rugby with a connection from there that gets you in at 0940.

Can you locate yourself anywhere more practical, or does it need to be Crewe? For example there is an 0851 express train from Coventry, a town about half way between Milton Keynes and Crewe, into Milton Keynes C at 0918.

I live in Crewe and will be commuting to Milton Keynes throughout the summer for work. I don’t drive.
 
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Basically, what would be the standard pattern 0802 and 0902 stops at MKC are swapped for (I think) Nuneaton and Rugby (respectively) in those hours. Has been ever since December 2008. Suspect the MK commuter belt is much larger now than it was then, particularly with the Network Rail office relocating there between 2009 and 2012.

Provides fast peak time trains from the Trent Valley (MK->Euston already having other alternatives), and helps with Fast Line capacity in the busiest part of the peak.

But yes, it rather does stuff up Crewe-MK commuting options, which has a superb service the remainder of the day, including the evening peak.

This is very helpful and explains the situation. I don’t want to go off topic but journeys like these are why we need HS2 to increase capacity on the WCML.
 
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One was pointed out in post #7

Then that one is your sole option until May when the 0714 service commences.

Sorry, could you advise which service in post #7 will be suitable? I can’t tell. Also, could tell me more about the new 0714 service, as that may do the job? Thanks for your insight.
 

AndrewE

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But which fast service do you propose calls that does not already?
See post 16!
The 0628 from Crewe calls at Nuneaton, then the train above from Wolverhampton reoccupies platform 4 almost immedietly, with the same thing happening to the 0653. The 0718 calls at Stafford, then passes Milton Keynes Central with the 0700 Manchester Picc to London Euston just behind. The 0757 calls at Rugby and is then followed by the 0735 from Manchester Picc. The 0823 calls at Stafford and is then followed by the 0540 from Glasgow Central. To shift any of these around would risk busting the fast line paths used by WMT, for commuter trains almost certainly carrying rather more people than VT's services. So the only options are to withdraw one of those calls at Nuneaton or Rugby or to withdraw a service from the timetable altogether. Can you see VT accepting the need to withdraw the 0700 Manchester Picc to London Euston, or WMT removing a peak commuter service between Northampton and London so that Crewe to Milton Keynes Central can be adequately served?
There are no up fast East Coast services that call at Stevenage either in the morning peak.
So what? "Fast to London" is a curse on the rest of the country. Compare Reading or East Croydon, where very few trains fail to call.
 

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Sorry, could you advise which service in post #7 will be suitable? I can’t tell. Also, could tell me more about the new 0714 service, as that may do the job? Thanks for your insight.
Apologies for causing confusion.

I've attached two screenshots which I hope will help! The timetable in the area from Sunday 19 May is due to be revised significantly so journeys planned after that date may look very different. Luckily for you the new services are a bit of an improvement. Unfortunately this will still give you very slow journeys but at least they will actually be possible.

Current option:
Capture.JPG

New option:
Capture22.JPG
 

Bletchleyite

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05:36 arr 06:51
06:02 arr 07:13
08:01 arr 09:58 (via Birmingham)
08:56 arr 10:02

I wouldn't describe that as plenty for the AM peak.

I wouldn't say that specific flow (as opposed to to London) justifies more than hourly. There could do with being one at 0702 arriving 0813, though.

Edit: it looks like LNR will provide a train of roughly that timing from May, so sorted.
 

Esker-pades

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I wouldn't say that specific flow (as opposed to to London) justifies more than hourly. There could do with being one at 0702 arriving 0813, though.

Edit: it looks like LNR will provide a train of roughly that timing from May, so sorted.
Circles.

The times that I've listed are not hourly. There is a near 3 hour gap in the morning. That is the current timetable. It's only starts to be hourly after the AM peak.
 

Starmill

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I wouldn't say that specific flow (as opposed to to London) justifies more than hourly. There could do with being one at 0702 arriving 0813, though.

Edit: it looks like LNR will provide a train of roughly that timing from May, so sorted.
Who says it needs to be more than hourly? The gap in VT services is almost three hours.
What would you do to the timetable to effect to provide at VT stop at 0800ish?
 

Starmill

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Why does it need to be VT? It's a minor flow and the direct LNRs will be almost as quick from May.
A fast train takes 1h 05. The change at Stoke-on-Trent takes 1h 48. The new 0714 takes 1h 41.

None of these options allows an 0800 ish arrival. From May, there is the 0602 arriving 0712 or the new 0714 arriving 0855.
 

AndrewE

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For years it's been the case that more people commute into MK than out of it,
It's a minor flow and the direct LNRs will be almost as quick from May.
Make up your mind! Either rail serves the country, or you should admit that it's all about London.

It's also obvious that the direct LNRs will not be almost as quick, I don't think 1 hr 05 compares with 1 hr 41 (arriving either 0712 or 0855 - how would that suit your commute?)
 

Bletchleyite

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Make up your mind! Either rail serves the country, or you should admit that it's all about London.

It's also obvious that the direct LNRs will not be almost as quick, I don't think 1 hr 05 compares with 1 hr 41 (arriving either 0712 or 0855 - how would that suit your commute?)

The WCML is all about London at the moment - HS2 will change that, one good reason to build it.

What I meant was that Crewe to MKC specifically is a relatively minor flow, and the number of actual commuters will be tiny. And of the kind of people who will actually commute on a flow like that (at the high price a season ticket will come at), most of them are in professional roles where turning up at 0905 is not going to be an issue provided the work is done.

I would venture that absolutely nobody is commuting from Crewe to MKC for a lower-paid job where that kind of thing matters e.g. retail or call centre.

Most commuting into MK is by car from its immediate hinterland.

And if I was commuting...you can save sixty quid a week by using LNR, so that's what I would be doing. A LNR/WMT Only season is cheaper than an Any Permitted Anytime Return by a significant margin.
 

Starmill

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I would venture that absolutely nobody is commuting from Crewe to MKC for a lower-paid job where that kind of thing matters e.g. retail or call centre.
At £708 / month I don't think it would ever be considered. I also don't think it would ever be considered at the restrictive ticket rate of £495 / month.
 
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