LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
They (NWT) certainly had some strange Mk2 sets in GWT (ie FGW pre-First Group takeover) green colours and interiors.North Wales for the older MK2s perhaps?
They (NWT) certainly had some strange Mk2 sets in GWT (ie FGW pre-First Group takeover) green colours and interiors.North Wales for the older MK2s perhaps?
Plus Restaurant service wouldn't be possible with an RMB, no kitchen for a start.Makes sense. As buffet cars, RBRs had a lot more staff working space and secure pantry storage capacity than the RMBs.
Yes indeed, only room for one steward and no cook behind the counter in a RMB.Plus Restaurant service wouldn't be possible with an RMB, no kitchen for a start.
And a taste of what would come with the TSO(T) micro-buffet cars which are essentially a scaled down version of an RMB.Yes indeed, only room for one steward and no cook behind the counter in a RMB.
The Flying Scotsman certainly had a dual restaurant/kitchen car plus RMB arrangement in the early years of its transition to a Mk1 formation. The RMB essentially being a continuation of the buffet lounge car provided in the 1938 'New Scotsman' in turn preceeded by the Toilet Third with cocktail bar.The RMB were initially used as additional capacity to supplement the full meals service on some prestige trains. Some later appeared as the only buffet provision on cross-country services, for which they weren’t really adequate. Unlike other buffet vehicles, they had normal fixed 2+2 setting, as in a TSO. After the first dozen they were built with four less seats as half of the bay beyond the centre door became a store cupboard. (Source: Keith Parkin’s HMRS book on Mark 1s.)
Appendix 19 of Parkin has the last of 80000-80009 withdrawn in 1971, the last of 80010-80021 in 1968 (only six years old) and the last of 80022-80040 in 1982. 80041, apparently converted from 1693 in 1989, lasted into privatisation.Does anyone know when the RKs were finally withdrawn? They were certainly still in use on special occasions on the WCML in 1980
Longworth has M80038 lasting in traffic until December 1982, but M80037 while withdrawn earlier was scrapped later.Does anyone know when the RKs were finally withdrawn? They were certainly still in use on special occasions on the WCML in 1980
Thanks for these details. Back in the day they were wonderful for full dining trains on race days and similar specials. Two RKs and 448 diners!Longworth has M80038 lasting in traffic until December 1982, but M80037 while withdrawn earlier was scrapped later.
80041 converted from 1690 is listed as being in traffic until February 2004.
Otherwise most RKs seem to have been withdrawn in either 1967/8 or 1975/6.
1960s, not sure about the red stripe exactly but Mk1s in Maroon and Green certainly carried a yellow stripe to denote First Class - I think the SR were the first and it was then later applied to Maroon Mk1s on other regions I think about 1963 for the SR/'64 for other regions give or take.Veering slightly off topic (well, a lot off topic) - when were the red stripes above buffet cars’ windows (and yellow above first class) introduced? Was it a BR thing or earlier? The reason it’s come to mind is that I’ve just seen a Scotrail HST and the practice persists with them
RMBs were widely used on routes such as the West Highland and Far North and on Glasgow/Edinburgh to Aberdeen on those services which did not have either Restaurant or Griddle cars.The RMB were initially used as additional capacity to supplement the full meals service on some prestige trains. Some later appeared as the only buffet provision on cross-country services, for which they weren’t really adequate. Unlike other buffet vehicles, they had normal fixed 2+2 setting, as in a TSO. After the first dozen they were built with four less seats as half of the bay beyond the centre door became a store cupboard. (Source: Keith Parkin’s HMRS book on Mark 1s.)
A hugely scaled down version.And a taste of what would come with the TSO(T) micro-buffet cars which are essentially a scaled down version of an RMB.
The red and yellow stripes were introduced by the SR on boat trains in 1960, but it took a while for the idea to be more widely accepted. I am not sure if it was a fairly standard practice on the continent. (Source: Parkin again.)Veering slightly off topic (well, a lot off topic) - when were the red stripes above buffet cars’ windows (and yellow above first class) introduced? Was it a BR thing or earlier? The reason it’s come to mind is that I’ve just seen a Scotrail HST and the practice persists with them
The 1st batch of RK's had antrecite stoves for cooking and i believe water tanks in the roofAppendix 19 of Parkin has the last of 80000-80009 withdrawn in 1971, the last of 80010-80021 in 1968 (only six years old) and the last of 80022-80040 in 1982. 80041, apparently converted from 1693 in 1989, lasted into privatisation.
Yes, it was a UIC standard.I am not sure if it was a fairly standard practice on the continent.
Very true, I'd sort of overlooked internal services thinking more about long-distance ECML workings which had an RMB + second catering vehicle.RMBs were widely used on routes such as the West Highland and Far North and on Glasgow/Edinburgh to Aberdeen on those services which did not have either Restaurant or Griddle cars.
What they served was very similar though.A hugely scaled down version.
Yellow stripes for First Class definitely was (I think it may have been a standard UIC directive), not sure on red stripes for catering though.I am not sure if it was a fairly standard practice on the continent.
Propane gas is oh so much easier to control than anthracite! Roof water tanks means things don't freeze much in the winter, but the high centre of gravity did little to improve the ride. Most Mk 1 catering vehicles stored their water in tanks between the frames, with water raised under air pressure - which was fine provides that the tank filler covers were replaced properly after replenishment. If not, then no water - and no grill either, as the grills heated the domestic hot water supply and so couldn't be used if the hot water tank was empty. And you think a modern combi boiler is complicated......?!The 1st batch of RK's had antrecite stoves for cooking and i believe water tanks in the roof
RMB had boiling water on tap rather than urns which lost heat with time, and carried much more stock (and I think a wider range).What they served was very similar though.
The former FGW mark 2s on the coast were air cons, introduced after the first end of hauled stock due to a lack of units.They (NWT) certainly had some strange Mk2 sets in GWT (ie FGW pre-First Group takeover) green colours and interiors.
Are you sure that the Mark 2As, Bs and Cs had dual heating? AFAIK the oldest Mark 2s (i.e. the vacuum-braked Mark 2s, which came before the 2As although they were very similar to the 2As) were sometimes steam-hauled when built but the 2As, Bs and Cs were only ever diesel or electric hauled. I suppose they might have sometimes been hauled by diesel locos with steam heating boilers rather than electric heating equipment, though.Until quite recent times, hauled stock typically lasted only about 20-25 years, the first half on mainstream expresses and then in secondary/relief usage. The Mk 1s from 1955-60 went in around 1975-85, and likewise the non-AC up to Mk 2c lasted from being built up to 1970 through to about 2000.
Initially with Mk 1s there was an official belief that, in the future, they would be rebodied at half life onto the existing frames/bogies, which are more than half the cost (some official must have been ex-Southern Railway, long past masters at this), but in practice the running gear became outmoded just as much as the bodies.
The thing that really did for them was steam heating, still used up to the Mk 2c, but from air-con 2d it had to be all electric. Low pressure steam used to leak inside the structure in winter and corrode the steel bodies from the inside out, exacerbated by the cycle of being cold/sub zero at night in sidings and warmed in the day. It was a reason why emus, always electric heated, had always lasted longer as well.
Exactly, well said! They were in Northern Ireland, though, so still worth a mention although I think this thread may have been meant to be mainly about BR rolling stock.The last older style mk2s with the opening windows would have been the 80 class DEMUs which lasted until 2011 in passenger traffic.
I rode the Rhymney line in February 2003, in a Mark 2B on the outward journey and in a Mark 2 aircon set coming back, so non-aircon Mark 2s were certainly still around on the Cardiff-Rhymney circuit then. I think it was on the day of a rugby match in Cardiff so I travelled there on a Class 37-hauled Manchester-Cardiff train formed mainly of non-aircon Mark 2s. That may have been a set normally used for charter trains, though.The former FGW mark 2s on the coast were air cons, introduced after the first end of hauled stock due to a lack of units.
I think the last use of pressure ventilated mark 2s was probably when the 175s finished off hauled stock on the North Wales Coast the first time. However, there is a question mark in my head as to when the last couple of Canton based rakes went over to air cons, which I think were transferred from Cross Country.
All the pressure ventilated Mk2s were built for dual heating, some Mk2Z on the SR were later converted to electric only but they were the exception. Electric heat only came in with the Mk2 air-con types.Are you sure that the Mark 2As, Bs and Cs had dual heating?
They (NWT) certainly had some strange Mk2 sets in GWT (ie FGW pre-First Group takeover) green colours and interiors.
I thought every Class 37-hauled set on the North Wales Coast had a Mark 2A Brake Corridor First right up until the end of 37s to Holyhead.There was still corridor and compartments in North Wales into the mid 90's,was always great if you ended up on one of them.
I thought every Class 37-hauled set on the North Wales Coast had a Mark 2A Brake Corridor First right up until the end of 37s to Holyhead.
There were also some Mark 2D BFKs (air conditioned but still side corridor) on the Cardiff-Rhymney loco-hauleds into the early 2000s and, more recently, they would even occasionally turn up on the Norwich to Great Yarmouth and Lowestoft and the Cumbrian Coast loco-hauleds.
You may well be correct but I don't remember all of them having corridor stock, but I was pretty young then and standing by the door with my face feeling the wind out of the drop light loving the beautiful view up and down the North wales coast between Chester and Holyhead most of the day was what I was concentrating on mostly!!
Also had much more variety than just 37's turning up randomly even if it was 37's booked.
I remember that, I once rode on it from New Street to Chester as it was declassified, very comfy!There was also a choc/cream Mk1 FK hired one summer which was particularly odd as the compartments had tables in them.