• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Last Loco-hauled MK1 and MK2 stock

Status
Not open for further replies.
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Gloster

Established Member
Joined
4 Sep 2020
Messages
8,289
Location
Up the creek
The RMB were initially used as additional capacity to supplement the full meals service on some prestige trains. Some later appeared as the only buffet provision on cross-country services, for which they weren’t really adequate. Unlike other buffet vehicles, they had normal fixed 2+2 setting, as in a TSO. After the first dozen they were built with four less seats as half of the bay beyond the centre door became a store cupboard. (Source: Keith Parkin’s HMRS book on Mark 1s.)
 

Rescars

Member
Joined
25 May 2021
Messages
1,119
Location
Surrey
On a prestige service this would make sense if, for instance, the restaurant car service was being catered from a RK (aka 80000 car) which had a service pantry on either side of a central kitchen and no buffet. Presumably another option would be to use a RKB which had a small buffet (and no seats) at one end and a large kitchen and pantry to service the dining saloons at the other.
 

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
15,715
Location
Glasgow
Yes indeed, only room for one steward and no cook behind the counter in a RMB.
And a taste of what would come with the TSO(T) micro-buffet cars which are essentially a scaled down version of an RMB.

The RMB were initially used as additional capacity to supplement the full meals service on some prestige trains. Some later appeared as the only buffet provision on cross-country services, for which they weren’t really adequate. Unlike other buffet vehicles, they had normal fixed 2+2 setting, as in a TSO. After the first dozen they were built with four less seats as half of the bay beyond the centre door became a store cupboard. (Source: Keith Parkin’s HMRS book on Mark 1s.)
The Flying Scotsman certainly had a dual restaurant/kitchen car plus RMB arrangement in the early years of its transition to a Mk1 formation. The RMB essentially being a continuation of the buffet lounge car provided in the 1938 'New Scotsman' in turn preceeded by the Toilet Third with cocktail bar.

Many ECML trains retained twin catering car set-ups into the air-con era. The Flying Scotsman retained an RMB for a few years, but trains such as the Newcastle and Leeds Executives often had an RU/RB pairing even within a weight limited trainset of just eight coaches.
 

Rescars

Member
Joined
25 May 2021
Messages
1,119
Location
Surrey
Does anyone know when the RKs were finally withdrawn? They were certainly still in use on special occasions on the WCML in 1980
 

Gloster

Established Member
Joined
4 Sep 2020
Messages
8,289
Location
Up the creek
Does anyone know when the RKs were finally withdrawn? They were certainly still in use on special occasions on the WCML in 1980
Appendix 19 of Parkin has the last of 80000-80009 withdrawn in 1971, the last of 80010-80021 in 1968 (only six years old) and the last of 80022-80040 in 1982. 80041, apparently converted from 1693 in 1989, lasted into privatisation.
 

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
15,715
Location
Glasgow
Does anyone know when the RKs were finally withdrawn? They were certainly still in use on special occasions on the WCML in 1980
Longworth has M80038 lasting in traffic until December 1982, but M80037 while withdrawn earlier was scrapped later.

80041 converted from 1690 is listed as being in traffic until February 2004.

Otherwise most RKs seem to have been withdrawn in either 1967/8 or 1975/6.
 

Rescars

Member
Joined
25 May 2021
Messages
1,119
Location
Surrey
Longworth has M80038 lasting in traffic until December 1982, but M80037 while withdrawn earlier was scrapped later.

80041 converted from 1690 is listed as being in traffic until February 2004.

Otherwise most RKs seem to have been withdrawn in either 1967/8 or 1975/6.
Thanks for these details. Back in the day they were wonderful for full dining trains on race days and similar specials. Two RKs and 448 diners!
 

SteveM70

Established Member
Joined
11 Jul 2018
Messages
3,801
Veering slightly off topic (well, a lot off topic) - when were the red stripes above buffet cars’ windows (and yellow above first class) introduced? Was it a BR thing or earlier? The reason it’s come to mind is that I’ve just seen a Scotrail HST and the practice persists with them
 

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
15,715
Location
Glasgow
Veering slightly off topic (well, a lot off topic) - when were the red stripes above buffet cars’ windows (and yellow above first class) introduced? Was it a BR thing or earlier? The reason it’s come to mind is that I’ve just seen a Scotrail HST and the practice persists with them
1960s, not sure about the red stripe exactly but Mk1s in Maroon and Green certainly carried a yellow stripe to denote First Class - I think the SR were the first and it was then later applied to Maroon Mk1s on other regions I think about 1963 for the SR/'64 for other regions give or take.

The 4REP carried red stripes on their restaurant cars from new, so red was definitely in use by 1967 to denote catering.

Perhaps someone will have the exact years, unfortunately I do not have the Parkin Mk1 "Bible" to refer to.
 

Cheshire Scot

Established Member
Joined
24 Jul 2020
Messages
1,331
Location
North East Cheshire
The RMB were initially used as additional capacity to supplement the full meals service on some prestige trains. Some later appeared as the only buffet provision on cross-country services, for which they weren’t really adequate. Unlike other buffet vehicles, they had normal fixed 2+2 setting, as in a TSO. After the first dozen they were built with four less seats as half of the bay beyond the centre door became a store cupboard. (Source: Keith Parkin’s HMRS book on Mark 1s.)
RMBs were widely used on routes such as the West Highland and Far North and on Glasgow/Edinburgh to Aberdeen on those services which did not have either Restaurant or Griddle cars.

And a taste of what would come with the TSO(T) micro-buffet cars which are essentially a scaled down version of an RMB.
A hugely scaled down version.
 

Gloster

Established Member
Joined
4 Sep 2020
Messages
8,289
Location
Up the creek
Veering slightly off topic (well, a lot off topic) - when were the red stripes above buffet cars’ windows (and yellow above first class) introduced? Was it a BR thing or earlier? The reason it’s come to mind is that I’ve just seen a Scotrail HST and the practice persists with them
The red and yellow stripes were introduced by the SR on boat trains in 1960, but it took a while for the idea to be more widely accepted. I am not sure if it was a fairly standard practice on the continent. (Source: Parkin again.)
 

delt1c

Established Member
Joined
4 Apr 2008
Messages
2,125
Appendix 19 of Parkin has the last of 80000-80009 withdrawn in 1971, the last of 80010-80021 in 1968 (only six years old) and the last of 80022-80040 in 1982. 80041, apparently converted from 1693 in 1989, lasted into privatisation.
The 1st batch of RK's had antrecite stoves for cooking and i believe water tanks in the roof
 

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
15,715
Location
Glasgow
RMBs were widely used on routes such as the West Highland and Far North and on Glasgow/Edinburgh to Aberdeen on those services which did not have either Restaurant or Griddle cars.
Very true, I'd sort of overlooked internal services thinking more about long-distance ECML workings which had an RMB + second catering vehicle.



A hugely scaled down version.
What they served was very similar though.

I am not sure if it was a fairly standard practice on the continent.
Yellow stripes for First Class definitely was (I think it may have been a standard UIC directive), not sure on red stripes for catering though.
 

Rescars

Member
Joined
25 May 2021
Messages
1,119
Location
Surrey
The 1st batch of RK's had antrecite stoves for cooking and i believe water tanks in the roof
Propane gas is oh so much easier to control than anthracite! Roof water tanks means things don't freeze much in the winter, but the high centre of gravity did little to improve the ride. Most Mk 1 catering vehicles stored their water in tanks between the frames, with water raised under air pressure - which was fine provides that the tank filler covers were replaced properly after replenishment. If not, then no water - and no grill either, as the grills heated the domestic hot water supply and so couldn't be used if the hot water tank was empty. And you think a modern combi boiler is complicated......?!
 

Gloster

Established Member
Joined
4 Sep 2020
Messages
8,289
Location
Up the creek
As far as I can remember the basis for the catering in a TSO(T) was the standard trolley, of the type designed to pass through the train. However, the counter meant that it was possible to display a couple of extra trays of sandwiches, biscuits, etc. The former toilet allowed a second urn and extra cups, milk pots, sugar, napkins, and some more eatables to be available. Urns could be exchanged for newly filled ones, and extra sandwiches, etc, could also be also be put aboard at intermediate calling-points. I am fairly sure that Waterloo-Exeters were restocked at Salisbury.
 

Rescars

Member
Joined
25 May 2021
Messages
1,119
Location
Surrey
Yes, RMBs had real boilers and I think a small grill as well, so toasted sandwiches etc were theoretically possible. As well as the boiling water tap, the larger pantry in a RBR and other catering cars had space for a coffee percolator and a milk warmer too - none of which got much use after the advent of the dreaded MaxPax. By comparison the TSO(T) approach was just a glorified picnic with a large vacuum flask.
 

clagmonster

Established Member
Joined
8 Jun 2005
Messages
2,442
They (NWT) certainly had some strange Mk2 sets in GWT (ie FGW pre-First Group takeover) green colours and interiors.
The former FGW mark 2s on the coast were air cons, introduced after the first end of hauled stock due to a lack of units.

I think the last use of pressure ventilated mark 2s was probably when the 175s finished off hauled stock on the North Wales Coast the first time. However, there is a question mark in my head as to when the last couple of Canton based rakes went over to air cons, which I think were transferred from Cross Country.
 

AY1975

Established Member
Joined
14 Dec 2016
Messages
1,748
Until quite recent times, hauled stock typically lasted only about 20-25 years, the first half on mainstream expresses and then in secondary/relief usage. The Mk 1s from 1955-60 went in around 1975-85, and likewise the non-AC up to Mk 2c lasted from being built up to 1970 through to about 2000.

Initially with Mk 1s there was an official belief that, in the future, they would be rebodied at half life onto the existing frames/bogies, which are more than half the cost (some official must have been ex-Southern Railway, long past masters at this), but in practice the running gear became outmoded just as much as the bodies.

The thing that really did for them was steam heating, still used up to the Mk 2c, but from air-con 2d it had to be all electric. Low pressure steam used to leak inside the structure in winter and corrode the steel bodies from the inside out, exacerbated by the cycle of being cold/sub zero at night in sidings and warmed in the day. It was a reason why emus, always electric heated, had always lasted longer as well.
Are you sure that the Mark 2As, Bs and Cs had dual heating? AFAIK the oldest Mark 2s (i.e. the vacuum-braked Mark 2s, which came before the 2As although they were very similar to the 2As) were sometimes steam-hauled when built but the 2As, Bs and Cs were only ever diesel or electric hauled. I suppose they might have sometimes been hauled by diesel locos with steam heating boilers rather than electric heating equipment, though.

Apart from steam heating, I would guess that the other things that did for the Mark 1s were vacuum brakes, asbestos insulation, and their poor crashworthiness compared to Mark 2s and 3s (as was demonstrated in the 1988 Clapham crash with Mark 1s and Colwich in 1986 with Mark 2s and 3s).
The last older style mk2s with the opening windows would have been the 80 class DEMUs which lasted until 2011 in passenger traffic.
Exactly, well said! They were in Northern Ireland, though, so still worth a mention although I think this thread may have been meant to be mainly about BR rolling stock.
The former FGW mark 2s on the coast were air cons, introduced after the first end of hauled stock due to a lack of units.

I think the last use of pressure ventilated mark 2s was probably when the 175s finished off hauled stock on the North Wales Coast the first time. However, there is a question mark in my head as to when the last couple of Canton based rakes went over to air cons, which I think were transferred from Cross Country.
I rode the Rhymney line in February 2003, in a Mark 2B on the outward journey and in a Mark 2 aircon set coming back, so non-aircon Mark 2s were certainly still around on the Cardiff-Rhymney circuit then. I think it was on the day of a rugby match in Cardiff so I travelled there on a Class 37-hauled Manchester-Cardiff train formed mainly of non-aircon Mark 2s. That may have been a set normally used for charter trains, though.
 

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
15,715
Location
Glasgow
Are you sure that the Mark 2As, Bs and Cs had dual heating?
All the pressure ventilated Mk2s were built for dual heating, some Mk2Z on the SR were later converted to electric only but they were the exception. Electric heat only came in with the Mk2 air-con types.
 

Y Ddraig Coch

Established Member
Joined
1 Nov 2013
Messages
1,288
They (NWT) certainly had some strange Mk2 sets in GWT (ie FGW pre-First Group takeover) green colours and interiors.

There was still corridor and compartments in North Wales into the mid 90's,was always great if you ended up on one of them.
 

Bigman

Member
Joined
24 Feb 2011
Messages
297
Location
Leeds
I remember that there was always an RMB on the old Saturday morning Leeds - Swansea back in the late 80's.
 

AY1975

Established Member
Joined
14 Dec 2016
Messages
1,748
There was still corridor and compartments in North Wales into the mid 90's,was always great if you ended up on one of them.
I thought every Class 37-hauled set on the North Wales Coast had a Mark 2A Brake Corridor First right up until the end of 37s to Holyhead.

There were also some Mark 2D BFKs (air conditioned but still side corridor) on the Cardiff-Rhymney loco-hauleds into the early 2000s and, more recently, they would even occasionally turn up on the Norwich to Great Yarmouth and Lowestoft and the Cumbrian Coast loco-hauleds.
 

Y Ddraig Coch

Established Member
Joined
1 Nov 2013
Messages
1,288
I thought every Class 37-hauled set on the North Wales Coast had a Mark 2A Brake Corridor First right up until the end of 37s to Holyhead.

There were also some Mark 2D BFKs (air conditioned but still side corridor) on the Cardiff-Rhymney loco-hauleds into the early 2000s and, more recently, they would even occasionally turn up on the Norwich to Great Yarmouth and Lowestoft and the Cumbrian Coast loco-hauleds.

You may well be correct but I don't remember all of them having corridor stock, but I was pretty young then and standing by the door with my face feeling the wind out of the drop light loving the beautiful view up and down the North wales coast between Chester and Holyhead most of the day was what I was concentrating on mostly!!

Also had much more variety than just 37's turning up randomly even if it was 37's booked.
 

Wilts Wanderer

Established Member
Joined
21 Nov 2016
Messages
2,463
You may well be correct but I don't remember all of them having corridor stock, but I was pretty young then and standing by the door with my face feeling the wind out of the drop light loving the beautiful view up and down the North wales coast between Chester and Holyhead most of the day was what I was concentrating on mostly!!

Also had much more variety than just 37's turning up randomly even if it was 37's booked.

From memory only some of the brake vehicles had compartments, mainly Mk2A BFKs running declassified. On a couple of occasions I came across a BSO. There was one Mk1 BSK which I believe was the last of its type in daily service. There was also a choc/cream Mk1 FK hired one summer which was particularly odd as the compartments had tables in them.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top