Law Change will require voters to show photo ID

[david1212]

If this came in I would not be able to vote in person until I am 70 and, presuming no reason for refusal, have to renew my driving licence. It is currently a proper paper one issued in 1988. I do not have a passport. The only photo ID card I have is for access to the site of one of my employers customers. They retain the card and issue it only while on their premises.

Yes you could, by changing your driving licence for a photocard.

But at the cost to me now for the photos and change then again for renewal after 10 years then again rather less than 10 years later for renewal at age 70. Benefit to me precisely zilch.

 

[RT4038]

But at the cost to me now for the photos and change then again for renewal after 10 years then again rather less than 10 years later for renewal at age 70. Benefit to me precisely zilch.

The benefit of which would be the ability to vote. If you don't want to vote, then no need.

 

[david1212]

The benefit of which would be the ability to vote. If you don't want to vote, then no need.

Pay to vote .... you really must be joking !!!!!

 

[A Challenge]

Pay to vote .... you really must be joking !!!!!

This is one of the problems with this system - people, particularly the poorest that are the most likely to need to pay to get ID, aren't likely to want to pay for the right to vote. I would hope that any charge that is, even indirectly like passport renewal, needed to be paid to be allowed to vote I would think would be breaching some sort of human rights legislation, surely?

 

[najaB]

I would hope that any charge that is, even indirectly like passport renewal, needed to be paid to be allowed to vote I would think would be breaching some sort of human rights legislation, surely?

It breaches the spirit but not, unfortunately, the letter of the law. The argument that's made is that you aren't paying to vote, you're paying for a passport/driving licence/age verification card which also happens to be acceptable ID for voting. There will likely be some theoretically available no-cost alternative, but if this government is true to form then good luck actually getting hold of one.

 

[PeterC]

It breaches the spirit but not, unfortunately, the letter of the law. The argument that's made is that you aren't paying to vote, you're paying for a passport/driving licence/age verification card which also happens to be acceptable ID for voting. There will likely be some theoretically available no-cost alternative, but if this government is true to form then good luck actually getting hold of one.

Knowing the civil service it will probably require a Government Gateway account which requires a passport number or use of a commercial identity verification service.

 

[AlterEgo]

Except experience in the USA has demonstrated that voter ID laws disproportionately affect poor and minority voters since they are the least likely to have acceptable ID.

Being opposed to universal government provided ID and requiring ID in order to vote are not compatible.

We aren’t the USA and it’s lazy to effectively export their social and political issues to a PDF and use it as some sort of map for what *we* should do in a very different country.

In Northern Ireland, anyone can get a free voter ID card. You don’t need a passport or driving licence. We had legal disenfranchisement in the province until the 1970s, yet for all the endless moaning about just about everything in Northern Ireland, voter ID is basically a non issue.

 

[DarloRich]

In Northern Ireland, anyone can get a free voter ID card. You don’t need a passport or driving licence. We had legal disenfranchisement in the province until the 1970s, yet for all the endless moaning about just about everything in Northern Ireland, voter ID is basically a non issue.

There is your answer. If it works in Northern Ireland ( with all of their history) there is no reason it wont work here. What is required is sensible implementation, if it comes to that

 

[AlterEgo]

There is your answer. If it works in Northern Ireland ( with all of their history) there is no reason it wont work here. What is required is sensible implementation, if it comes to that

If the government rolls out a similar scheme of ID then I don't think anyone can oppose the idea on that basis. But if they don't, then it will indirectly disenfranchise some people, and can't be supported.

 

[najaB]

We aren’t the USA and it’s lazy to effectively export their social and political issues to a PDF and use it as some sort of map for what *we* should do in a very different country.

No, obviously we aren't the USA, but there are some things that are the same here as there. The main relevant one here being that the economically and socially excluded are least likely to have acceptable ID.

Another thing that we have in common is that in person voter fraud is virtually non-existent, but a conservative government is intent on rolling out ID requirements in order to vote.

In Northern Ireland, anyone can get a free voter ID card. You don’t need a passport or driving licence.

And when a similar scheme is rolled out in Great Britain then there won't be a problem. I won't be holding my breath.

 

[DarloRich]

If the government rolls out a similar scheme of ID then I don't think anyone can oppose the idea on that basis. But if they don't, then it will indirectly disenfranchise some people, and can't be supported.

agreed.

 

[Elwyn]

Producing photographic id when voting was introduced in Northern Ireland because there was a significant proven problem with personation as it’s formally called. “Vote early and vote often” used to be the tongue in cheek slogan here. Photo ID led to 10% of the electoral register simply dropping off it, so that gives a hint of the level of fraud there had been.

But, as AlterEgo has said, producing id has not been an issue here at all. Most people already have some acceptable id. It’s not just passports and driving licenses, but there are other acceptable documents. And for those who have nothing they can get a free electoral card. It’s not a big deal and no-one need be disenfranchised.

I took some Canadian friends with me the last time I voted in Northern Ireland and they commented on how quick and easy the process was (including verification of id). They said it was more complex in Canada, and they were astonished that at one time you could have voted without producing id. (I think most countries now require photo id when voting).

 

[RichT54]

Are there any estimates of how much extra it will add to the cost of holding an election?

 

[najaB]

And for those who have nothing they can get a free electoral card. It’s not a big deal and no-one need be disenfranchised.

And as several posters have said, if they introduce a similar scheme in GB then there's no problem. But the Tories have voted against national ID cards in the past (even voluntary ones) so I would be surprised to see them introducing them now.

 

[jfollows]

Today's Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/politic...discouraging-vulnerable-voters-postal-vote-id) reports that Woking Borough Council will "request" voters to provide ID and proof of address if they want a postal or proxy vote for the elections in May, however they will not "require" this (because it's against the law to do so currently). Presumably after the election they'll make big claims for how they managed to "reduce fraudulent voting" and the like.

To me, the important comment is that there's a "worrying trend to normalise the idea that showing ID to vote safeguards democracy, when in fact it does the opposite".

Woking council accused of discouraging vulnerable voters

Tory-run borough asking for photo ID to register for proxy or postal votes, though this is not required by law

In England, Scotland and Wales, only a signature and date of birth is required to apply for a postal vote.

Peter Walker Political correspondent

Mon 1 Mar 2021 13.08 GMT

A Conservative-run council has been accused of potentially shutting vulnerable people out of May’s elections by asking people to show photo ID if they want a postal or proxy vote, even though it is not required by law.

Woking borough council in Surrey says that because voters are only “requested” to provide ID and proof of address, it is not breaching electoral rules.

But rights groups say the tactic could discourage groups of voters who are less likely to have the relevant documents, including older people, people who are homeless, those with disabilities, or people from black, Asian and minority ethnic communities.

They say this is particularly vital in the 6 May election as many more people are expected to seek postal or proxy votes because of coronavirus, particularly older voters.

The government plans to introduce mandatory ID for all in-person voting from 2023, a plan criticised separately as likely to suppress voter numbers from some communities.

In England, Scotland and Wales, for a postal or proxy vote, people only need to provide a signature and date of birth in advance, which is then checked against the same data on the vote itself.

But on its website, Woking council says that to apply for a postal or proxy vote, “you are requested to provide” copies of photo ID such as a passport or driving licence, and proof of residence, for example a utility bill or bank statement.

This page does not tell people that this is not mandatory. If voters then click on the link to apply for a postal or proxy vote, they are told, the subsequent document says: “If you do not provide such evidence, your application will still be processed, but your registration at the property will be examined further. This could result in your name being removed from the electoral register.”

Toby James, a professor of politics at the University of East Anglia and an expert on voting practices, said he had never previously seen an English council act in this way.

“Generally speaking, postal vote fraud is not really a big issue now,” he said. “The biggest issue at this election is going to be turnout, and people worrying about casting their votes. The wording of this certainly would seem to put people off. Voting really should be made as easy as possible for people.”

Grey Collier, an advocacy director at the civil rights group Liberty, said the Woking tactic was part of a “worrying trend to normalise the idea that showing ID to vote safeguards democracy, when it in fact does the opposite.”

Collier said: “If you’re young, if you’re a person of colour, if you’re disabled, trans or you don’t have a fixed address, you’re much less likely to have valid photo ID and could therefore be shut out of voting.”

It is understood that the Electoral Commission will not intervene, as the council is only requesting details, and local returning officers are given some discretion over how they run elections locally.

Woking says it wanted to have extra safeguards because of previous local cases of postal voting fraud.

A council spokesperson said: “We request the additional information to ensure that the person seeking a postal vote both lives at the address and is the person they claim to be. Through this process, the electoral registration officer seeks to ensure the integrity of the election by minimising the risk of electoral fraud.”

 

[Typhoon]

Today's Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/politic...discouraging-vulnerable-voters-postal-vote-id) reports that Woking Borough Council will "request" voters to provide ID and proof of address if they want a postal or proxy vote for the elections in May, however they will not "require" this (because it's against the law to do so currently). Presumably after the election they'll make big claims for how they managed to "reduce fraudulent voting" and the like.

To me, the important comment is that there's a "worrying trend to normalise the idea that showing ID to vote safeguards democracy, when in fact it does the opposite".

I have an issue with what is on their website. If you click the link, it gives

Along with your completed application form, photocopies of the required identification documents can be posted to: Elections team, Woking Borough Council, Civic Offices, Gloucester Square, Woking GU21 6YL.

(my emphasis).
It can only be requested, not required, as you rightly point out!

 

[david1212]

I don't see how this can actually achieve anything except ticking the box ' we tried ' as all who are fraudulent will just put in their request anyway and unless there are other reasons for rejection it has to be accepted.

It may well even backfire as some who are housebound will not readily be able to and others may well decide too much hassle to get copies of the documents so not request to vote at all. I wonder is the application only by post or if also online where photos of the documents can be submitted ?

 

[Typhoon]

It may well even backfire as some who are housebound will not readily be able to and others may well decide too much hassle to get copies of the documents so not request to vote at all. I wonder is the application only by post or if also online where photos of the documents can be submitted ?

Housebound - may well have to trust someone to get the items photocopied, something they may not be willing to risk. And if they are housebound, they may not have much use for a passport or current driving licence.
I'm not too sure where I would be able can get items photocopied at the moment. The library is closed, a convenience store is being refurbished; maybe Woking is awash with photocopying shops; no good trying the Civic Offices, they are closed. And no facility to get the alternative photo-ID that is promised by HMG in their Bill. I wonder if a council tax bill counts as evidence of address?

Breakdown of councillors is interesting: 14 Conservative, 10 Lib Dem, 3 Labour, 3 Independent (Byfleet and West Byfleet). So maybe they are a little concerned that there might be a swing?

Incidentally, if you live in Woking, in a 2-person household and don't want to vote, then the line given above

This could result in your name being removed from the electoral register.

could be useful. Apply for a postal vote with no evidence, hope they remove your name from the electoral rote, then the other person applies for discount on Council Tax as a single person household, quoting the electoral register as evidence. If they then say that there are two people in the house, fine, one wants a postal vote! Provided you both complete the form that compiles the electoral register each year, you should be fine, it is Woking that say that you no longer live there. OK there are probably flaws but it seems like a nice idea!

 

[birchesgreen]

I don't see how this can actually achieve anything except ticking the box ' we tried ' as all who are fraudulent will just put in their request anyway and unless there are other reasons for rejection it has to be accepted.

It may well even backfire as some who are housebound will not readily be able to and others may well decide too much hassle to get copies of the documents so not request to vote at all. I wonder is the application only by post or if also online where photos of the documents can be submitted ?

My mum probably wouldn't bother, she has no photo ID apart from a now expired passport (and being nearly 90 she isn't in a rush to renew it). Tories would lose a life long voter. Serves them right.

 

[AlterEgo]

My mum probably wouldn't bother, she has no photo ID apart from a now expired passport (and being nearly 90 she isn't in a rush to renew it). Tories would lose a life long voter. Serves them right.

In Northern Ireland the system works well, and expired ID is perfectly okay to use to prove your identity to vote. Nobody is disenfranchised.

If the proposal here is that people are being made to show photo ID which needs to be paid for (driving licence or passport), clearly this is not in the interests of democracy and should be opposed.

We ought to have had a free national ID card long ago.

 

[Whistler40145]

What is the situation if you’re a postal voter?

 

[Domh245]

Tories would lose a life long voter.

They don't mind if they lose a tory voter, so long as they lose two labour voters

 

[Typhoon]

In Northern Ireland the system works well, and expired ID is perfectly okay to use to prove your identity to vote. Nobody is disenfranchised.

If the proposal here is that people are being made to show photo ID which needs to be paid for (driving licence or passport), clearly this is not in the interests of democracy and should be opposed.

We ought to have had a free national ID card long ago.

Wouldn't argue with the section underlined. People pay for a driving licence and a passport for a reason and it is not so they can vote, why should others have to pay to vote? Nor the following line.

Expired ID, how about my National Registration Identity Card? It expired 54 years ago! I just wish it had a photograph.

They don't mind if they lose a tory voter, so long as they lose two labour voters

I think Woking might be worrying about Lib Dems, but your sentiment is correct. Also, the number of Conservative voting pensioners who won't have a passport (in particular) diminishes by the day, I would be surprised if Labour voters are diminishing at such a rate, although they may be turning Tory.

 

[david1212]

Housebound - may well have to trust someone to get the items photocopied, something they may not be willing to risk. And if they are housebound, they may not have much use for a passport or current driving licence.
I'm not too sure where I would be able can get items photocopied at the moment. The library is closed, a convenience store is being refurbished; maybe Woking is awash with photocopying shops; no good trying the Civic Offices, they are closed. And no facility to get the alternative photo-ID that is promised by HMG in their Bill. I wonder if a council tax bill counts as evidence of address?

Breakdown of councillors is interesting: 14 Conservative, 10 Lib Dem, 3 Labour, 3 Independent (Byfleet and West Byfleet). So maybe they are a little concerned that there might be a swing?

Incidentally, if you live in Woking, in a 2-person household and don't want to vote, then the line given above could be useful. Apply for a postal vote with no evidence, hope they remove your name from the electoral rote, then the other person applies for discount on Council Tax as a single person household, quoting the electoral register as evidence. If they then say that there are two people in the house, fine, one wants a postal vote! Provided you both complete the form that compiles the electoral register each year, you should be fine, it is Woking that say that you no longer live there. OK there are probably flaws but it seems like a nice idea!

I don't see why not. Putting myself in that position all I might have is the council tax bill, water ( currently still paper, combined electricity & gas is on line ) and maybe disabled parking blue badge. As you say driving licence would just expire if not formally required to be surrendered. I certainly would not trust anyone except family to take items out of my sight. No family live close to me either.

My mum probably wouldn't bother, she has no photo ID apart from a now expired passport (and being nearly 90 she isn't in a rush to renew it). Tories would lose a life long voter. Serves them right.

As I read the requirement is ID not photo ID. Not least this is part of the application for a postal vote so how could it be checked anyway.

 

[DarloRich]

In Northern Ireland the system works well, and expired ID is perfectly okay to use to prove your identity to vote. Nobody is disenfranchised.

If the proposal here is that people are being made to show photo ID which needs to be paid for (driving licence or passport), clearly this is not in the interests of democracy and should be opposed.

We ought to have had a free national ID card long ago.

Sensible statements.

 

[Typhoon]

I don't see why not. Putting myself in that position all I might have is the council tax bill, water ( currently still paper, combined electricity & gas is on line ) and maybe disabled parking blue badge. As you say driving licence would just expire if not formally required to be surrendered. I certainly would not trust anyone except family to take items out of my sight. No family live close to me either.

If I lived in Woking I would include the Council Tax bill as an indication of how much I am paying them to put obstructions in my way when voting. I might include a list of councillors' expenses as well.
Underlined part - absolutely. They are making voting harder than it needs to be. I can see low turnouts in any case this time around,

As I read the requirement is ID not photo ID. Not least this is part of the application for a postal vote so how could it be checked anyway.

However the two examples they give are both photo-id. There really ought to be a wider list than this to give people an idea of the scope of evidence they will accept (and not just Firearms Certificate). I shouldn't need to phone up (especially as the Civic Centre is shut so probably limited staffing. Underlined part, exactly and they have the signatures to compare and the vote is delivered to the property given on the electoral register (in our area by hand so they could see if the property was empty for instance)

 

[birchesgreen]

Anything that isn't photo ID is pointless ID, mind as well just stick with polling cards then.

 

[david1212]

Anything that isn't photo ID is pointless ID, mind as well just stick with polling cards then.

How does somebody processing a postal vote application check the photo ID submitted matches the applicant ?

 

[xotGD]

The government will make it very straightforward to get photo ID.

Just come along with your passport to prove who you are, and it can be issued on the spot.

 

[westv]

Apart from The Times, is there been any indication anywhere else that this could happen? As already mentioned, there really isn't a problem that needs solving.