Life after the end of "lockdown" 2.0

[sheff1]

Unfortunately My MP is Kier Starmer so zero point writing to him!!!

I trust yoo didn't vote for him.

There is a feeling within hospitality that the industry is not only being scapegoated, but sacrificed. The situation is dire, it's no exageration to say that we could loose hundreds, possibly even thousands of pubs for good over the next few months. I have no idea why they are doing this, it's a sustained assault on the industry. It's like they want it to die.

There was some discussion about the reason on this thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/alcohol-bans.211235/page-3#post-4866301 last week.

 

[DustyBin]

I trust yoo didn't vote for him.


There was some discussion about the reason on this thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/alcohol-bans.211235/page-3#post-4866301 last week.

Thanks, I’d missed that. I’m no conspiracy nut but it’s not beyond the realms of possibility that certain agendas are being pursued here in my opinion.... All in the name of saving lives of course....

 

[DelayRepay]

It's quite clear that most people are ignoring it all - despite half the shops being closed, the local town centre is nearly as busy as normal, and there is no attempt at any enforcement - unsurprisingly, as many aspects of this law are unenforceable.

Indeed - despite lots of shops having to close, those that are open are doing a roaring trade in exactly the same goods.

I was out at the weekend and noticed a queue to get into the DIY store. People leaving were carrying (generally) Christmas trees, lights and decorations - not exactly essential. I acknowledge they are doing nothing wrong, the store is allowed to open and sell those goods, and people are allowed to buy them. My observation is simply that this is different to the early days of the original lockdown, where (most) people did seem to be limiting shopping trips to genuinely essentials.

 

[DustyBin]

Indeed - despite lots of shops having to close, those that are open are doing a roaring trade in exactly the same goods.

I was out at the weekend and noticed a queue to get into the DIY store. People leaving were carrying (generally) Christmas trees, lights and decorations - not exactly essential. I acknowledge they are doing nothing wrong, the store is allowed to open and sell those goods, and people are allowed to buy them. My observation is simply that this is different to the early days of the original lockdown, where (most) people did seem to be limiting shopping trips to genuinely essentials.

I think the key difference back then was many people, myself included, were concerned about catching the ‘deadly’ virus. The situation appeared to be very serious. Outwith those known to be vulnerable, the majority no longer care and simply want to get on with their lives.

 

[yorksrob]

I think that the majority of people are happy to take sensible precautions. They are not happy to be forced into continual or intermittent lockdown.

 

[DelayRepay]

I think the key difference back then was many people, myself included, were concerned about catching the ‘deadly’ virus. The situation appeared to be very serious. Outwith those known to be vulnerable, the majority no longer care and simply want to get on with their lives.

I agree - I was a little scared, based on those news reports we saw from Italy. I am not in any of the vulnerable groups but it was a fear of the unknown.

I remember back in March, when some people wanted to go into lockdown earlier than we did, some experts (and maybe the PM?) said it had to be timed correctly due to 'lockdown fatigue'. Probably one thing they were absolutely right about.

 

[Bantamzen]

One thing Hancock has said today is that people actually poorly with flu / covid / cold should be staying at home and not soldering on to work. This is something I highlighted as an important issue to tackle right back at the start, so its only taken the government and experts nine months to catch up. It will be interesting to see if this is backed up with a strengthening of SSP to better support workers needing to take time off work.

 

[joncombe]

One thing Hancock has said today is that people actually poorly with flu / covid / cold should be staying at home and not soldering on to work. This is something I highlighted as an important issue to tackle right back at the start, so its only taken the government and experts nine months to catch up. It will be interesting to see if this is backed up with a strengthening of SSP to better support workers needing to take time off work.

It's not just SSP though. Many employees have policies about needing to get a "doctors note" if off for more than a couple of days. Given it seems impossible to get a doctors appointment at less than 2 weeks notice (at least at my surgery), that will be another factor. Secondly employees can and do discriminate based on attendance (I've seen this in the case of redundancies where the amount of sickness taken is taken into account). Lastly for many people SSP will still be less than their normal wages leaving them out of pocket.

I don't think people would go into work sick if they knew they could call in sick and get full pay without implications but there are likely very very few people where that is the case. I mean most people feeling under the weather would likely lovely to be able to stay in bed with no implications.

That's why I don't like his phrase "soldiering on", most people aren't going into work when sick out of choice.

 

[greyman42]

That's why I don't like his phrase "soldiering on", most people aren't going into work when sick out of choice.

I know quite a few who take time of sick to go on jollies, the problem being that when they are genuinely sick, they cannot take the time off as it takes them into the bad attendance category.

 

[Ian Cunningham]

It's not just SSP though. Many employees have policies about needing to get a "doctors note" if off for more than a couple of days. Given it seems impossible to get a doctors appointment at less than 2 weeks notice (at least at my surgery), that will be another factor. Secondly employees can and do discriminate based on attendance (I've seen this in the case of redundancies where the amount of sickness taken is taken into account). Lastly for many people SSP will still be less than their normal wages leaving them out of pocket.

I don't think people would go into work sick if they knew they could call in sick and get full pay without implications but there are likely very very few people where that is the case. I mean most people feeling under the weather would likely lovely to be able to stay in bed with no implications.

That's why I don't like his phrase "soldiering on", most people aren't going into work when sick out of choice.

That's a very important point - some people simply can't afford to take time off work if genuinely ill let along a 2 week self-isolation if contacted by T&T

SSP is only £95.85/week - 35hrs at NMW is £305, so even on the lowest wages it's still quite a hit to take and this group is probably the least financially resilient.
"Doing the right thing" is all fine and well until you can't pay the rent

It's worse for the self employed - If I had to self isolate for 2 weeks I'd be potentially taking a hit of over £2500 lost earnings each time it happened (in reality it would not be that high at the moment as the events and theatre industry is being comprehensively destroyed by the restrictions, which is a whole different matter)

 

[Freightmaster]

One thing Hancock has said today is that people actually poorly with flu / covid / cold should be staying at home and not soldering on to work.

I think that advice only applies to electricians.






MARK

 

[Bikeman78]

When I picked up the tickets for the (now aborted) trip on 27th November over a month ago, I was advised by some woman working for Avanti saying 'It depends whether we go into Tier 3 and then you won't be able to travel as it will be essential travel only. You will also be questioned by the British Transport Police even if you were travelling for work purposes and would need to give details of your manager and who you were going to see'.

Do correct me if I am wrong, but there appears to be no change from the previous Tier 3 regarding non essential travel as it still appears to be advisory and not the law. Just need some clarification.

You'll be unlucky if you get questioned. Late September I was in Liverpool. The PA on Merseyrail stations was blasting out anouncements about essential travel. I bought fish and chips near Liverpool Central, then wandered into the station. My rover wouldn't open the gates so one of the two staff members opened them and waved me through. There were three coppers standing there as well. They just nodded and said "all right." They must have known I was going to eat the chips on the train.

 

[Horizon22]

It's quite clear that most people are ignoring it all - despite half the shops being closed, the local town centre is nearly as busy as normal, and there is no attempt at any enforcement - unsurprisingly, as many aspects of this law are unenforceable.

This is what I find odd. I go into the town so I can get to the train station to commute to work. But its still very busy around but hardly anything is open. Not that I care that much, but I am rather intrigued - must be my curious nature - as to what these people are actually doing. It's not like it's a park so its 'fresh' air; its mainly a high street with cars and buses so not overly pleasant.

 

[bramling]

This is what I find odd. I go into the town so I can get to the train station to commute to work. But its still very busy around but hardly anything is open. Not that I care that much, but I am rather intrigued - must be my curious nature - as to what these people are actually doing. It's not like it's a park so its 'fresh' air; its mainly a high street with cars and buses so not overly pleasant.

Same in my town.

Having said that I’ve been on some pretty quiet trains this week, which I must say has been pleasant. I was at East Croydon this evening and can’t have been far from being the only passenger on the entire station.

 

[Mojo]

One thing Hancock has said today is that people actually poorly with flu / covid / cold should be staying at home and not soldering on to work. This is something I highlighted as an important issue to tackle right back at the start, so its only taken the government and experts nine months to catch up. It will be interesting to see if this is backed up with a strengthening of SSP to better support workers needing to take time off work.

I do wonder how much of the current problems fall down to bad advice being given by the NHS early on in this.

My partner went to Belgium early March with a work trip and three staff members came back with what we now accept are many of the Covid symptoms. I can’t speak for everyone else but he called NHS 111 and was advised that as he had not been to Italy, or China, that there was no need to self isolate & if felt able to should go to work as normal.

 

[Bantamzen]

I do wonder how much of the current problems fall down to bad advice being given by the NHS early on in this.

My partner went to Belgium early March with a work trip and three staff members came back with what we now accept are many of the Covid symptoms. I can’t speak for everyone else but he called NHS 111 and was advised that as he had not been to Italy, or China, that there was no need to self isolate & if felt able to should go to work as normal.

I don't think it is necessarily the fault of the NHS, this is generally the culture in this country. Because we have only SSP as a safety net for people who are ill, many people simply can't afford to take time off when they are.

What we need is twofold. Firstly SSP needs to be improved to match at the very least minimum wage, and preferably backed up with employer contributions to make anything up to 100% wage for illnesses like covid & flu. This would need to go hand in hand with some level of testing so that employees don't take the proverbial & provide them with evidence so that employers don't do the same. And secondly employers need to learn to build in contingencies for such things, ensuring that they don't unnecessarily pressure staff into working when they shouldn't and to plan for at least some level of sickness especially during winter.

Of course all this would come at a cost initially, but by giving more support to people who need it, you reduce the transmission of illnesses, and in time improve staff moral & confidence, improve productivity & ultimately profitability. What we must not do is go down the route of countries like Japan & hide the problem away behind masks. Countries like that may seem more disciplined, but underneath that seemingly pragmatic approach is people being overworked, working when they shouldn't, and sadly a very high level of unhappiness, depression and even suicide. If we must define a "new normal" it should be around a better approach to work / life balance, not adding more restrictions to give the impression of normality.

 

[Mojo]

I don't think it is necessarily the fault of the NHS, this is generally the culture in this country. Because we have only SSP as a safety net for people who are ill, many people simply can't afford to take time off when they are.

The problem is though, in this case, in hindsight it was clearly bad advice as it was fairly obvious that the epidemic was far more widespread than Italy and China in early March!

 

[Bantamzen]

The problem is though, in this case, in hindsight it was clearly bad advice as it was fairly obvious that the epidemic was far more widespread than Italy and China in early March!

But in early March the government's policy was different, so they not the NHS was to blame.

 

[Yew]

It's becoming increasingly clear that there won't be any form of life after Covid, only yet more psychological torment. The worst thing is those who gleefully scream to extend our suffering in order to 'save lives'.

 

[philosopher]

It's becoming increasingly clear that there won't be any form of life after Covid, only yet more psychological torment. The worst thing is those who gleefully scream to extend our suffering in order to 'save lives'.

Matt Hancock and Boris Johnson have implied the restrictions will largely be removed by the start of April and instead replaced with personal responsibility. This I interpret as letting individuals assess their own or family’s level of risk and behaving accordingly.

That to me does sound fairly encouraging. However I do have my suspicions that come April, the lockdown lobby will come up with new reasons as to why the restrictions should continue such as saying we can‘t be certain the vaccine is reducing transmission.

 

[Yew]

Matt Hancock and Boris Johnson have implied the restrictions will largely be removed by the start of April and instead replaced with personal responsibility. This I interpret as letting individuals assess their own or family’s level of risk and behaving accordingly.

That to me does sound fairly encouraging. However I do have my suspicions that come April, the lockdown lobby will come up with new reasons as to why the restrictions should continue such as saying we can‘t be certain the vaccine is reducing transmission.

Mr Johnson also promised "Significant Normality by November", we can't stand by and wait for promises that may or may not manifest, when the damage and suffering they cause is so real.

 

[Kite159]

I don't think it is necessarily the fault of the NHS, this is generally the culture in this country. Because we have only SSP as a safety net for people who are ill, many people simply can't afford to take time off when they are.

What we need is twofold. Firstly SSP needs to be improved to match at the very least minimum wage, and preferably backed up with employer contributions to make anything up to 100% wage for illnesses like covid & flu. This would need to go hand in hand with some level of testing so that employees don't take the proverbial & provide them with evidence so that employers don't do the same. And secondly employers need to learn to build in contingencies for such things, ensuring that they don't unnecessarily pressure staff into working when they shouldn't and to plan for at least some level of sickness especially during winter.

Of course all this would come at a cost initially, but by giving more support to people who need it, you reduce the transmission of illnesses, and in time improve staff moral & confidence, improve productivity & ultimately profitability. What we must not do is go down the route of countries like Japan & hide the problem away behind masks. Countries like that may seem more disciplined, but underneath that seemingly pragmatic approach is people being overworked, working when they shouldn't, and sadly a very high level of unhappiness, depression and even suicide. If we must define a "new normal" it should be around a better approach to work / life balance, not adding more restrictions to give the impression of normality.

Don't forget that some employers have absence management processes in place, i.e 3 periods of sickness within X months could trigger an investigation. So someone close to that limit could decide to get drugged up and come into work to avoid the risk of a chat, especially if there is bad blood between them and their manager

 

[bramling]

It's becoming increasingly clear that there won't be any form of life after Covid, only yet more psychological torment. The worst thing is those who gleefully scream to extend our suffering in order to 'save lives'.

I am increasingly coming to the view that there is going to have to be some element of having to forcibly scotch the work from home fad. From what I’m seeing and hearing locally it’s quite apparent that this is driving the apparent mismatch between people claiming to clamour after lockdown restrictions and people actually following such restrictions. Yes it’s ultimately down to employers whether people work from home, but equally such decisions are off the back of government guidance, which is in turn partly fed by locktivist sentiments - a vicious cycle.

Quite simply, at the moment a few too many people are relishing not having to get up to go to work, and are quite happy to see restrictions which they have found aren’t enforced and thus they don’t actually have to obey. So what if a few hundredweight of businesses go to the wall in the meantime?...

 

[initiation]

replaced with personal responsibility.

Based on previous form I would interpret this as it is your personal responsibility to follow whatever arbitrary rules we decide to impose.

 

[brad465]

It's becoming increasingly clear that there won't be any form of life after Covid, only yet more psychological torment. The worst thing is those who gleefully scream to extend our suffering in order to 'save lives'.

I am increasingly coming to the view that there is going to have to be some element of having to forcibly scotch the work from home fad. From what I’m seeing and hearing locally it’s quite apparent that this is driving the apparent mismatch between people claiming to clamour after lockdown restrictions and people actually following such restrictions. Yes it’s ultimately down to employers whether people work from home, but equally such decisions are off the back of government guidance, which is in turn partly fed by locktivist sentiments - a vicious cycle.

Quite simply, at the moment a few too many people are relishing not having to get up to go to work, and are quite happy to see restrictions which they have found aren’t enforced and thus they don’t actually have to obey. So what if a few hundredweight of businesses go to the wall in the meantime?...

Johnson (and others) talk about wanting to "beat the virus", but the reality is the virus doesn't have to infect everybody and kill a large proportion (which relatively speaking it isn't even doing) to win: by causing extensive damage to other health problems, economic damage and ruining our lives in other areas while we try to "hide away", means in effect Covid has already won.

 

[bramling]

Johnson (and others) talk about wanting to "beat the virus", but the reality is the virus doesn't have to infect everybody and kill a large proportion (which relatively speaking it isn't even doing) to win: by causing extensive damage to other health problems, economic damage and ruining our lives in other areas while we try to "hide away", means in effect Covid has already won.

A work colleague of mine, who at the start was one of the most pro-restriction (being in a highly vulnerable group due to an underlying health condition), has now pretty much moved to the view “I’m past caring now”.

This change has been driven partly by some exposure to actual date as opposed to the media-led hysteria storm, and partly by a gradual realisation that his life simply isn’t worth living at the moment to the point where he’s now severely obese and depressed.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

I don't know what the legislation says to be fair, but I'm sure it's not currently permitted to be away from home unless it's for one of a list of government specified reasons.

How, exactly, could this rule actually be enforced, without having police officers stationed in every street, asking ‘where are your papers?’???
Are the authorities relying on a cavalry of super-snitchers ?

 

[bramling]

How, exactly, could this rule actually be enforced, without having police officers stationed in every street, asking ‘where are your papers?’???
Are the authorities relying on a cavalry of super-snitchers ?

I suspect the main way of “enforcing” this is through hotels being closed, though of course some at least have stayed open to cater for people staying for work purposes. Not sure if these have been making a habit of asking for some form of proof, though I don’t see why they should have to get involved in this.

In practice there’s little to stop people going to stay with friends or relatives, and even if someone like a neighbour were to snitch it’s hardly like to be the police’s top priority. My local paper suggests crime has now returned to pre-March levels, so the police presumably won’t have any slack in resources that they might have had earlier in the year.

I wouldn’t be surprised there’s still an element of snitching going on though.

 

[Bantamzen]

Don't forget that some employers have absence management processes in place, i.e 3 periods of sickness within X months could trigger an investigation. So someone close to that limit could decide to get drugged up and come into work to avoid the risk of a chat, especially if there is bad blood between them and their manager

And this is where the government needs to legislate. There needs to be more robust laws that allow employees to take time off when they need to due to short term sicknesses such as this, whilst protecting the employer from people just wanting to thrown a sickie. And where disputes arise, there needs to be a robust, consistent & independent process to arbitrate.

 

[ChrisC]

This is what I find odd. I go into the town so I can get to the train station to commute to work. But its still very busy around but hardly anything is open. Not that I care that much, but I am rather intrigued - must be my curious nature - as to what these people are actually doing. It's not like it's a park so its 'fresh' air; its mainly a high street with cars and buses so not overly pleasant.

I’m just as intrigued to know why there’s so much traffic on the roads. Last Sunday lunchtime was unbelievably busy just to the north of Nottingham. If no one can visit other households, no one going to a pub or restaurant for Sunday lunch, supposedly non essential shops closed, where were they all going. It was far busier than a normal Sunday with traffic almost at the level of one of the Sundays immediately before Christmas. Having said that, when I got back to my village, I had never seen so many cars parked everywhere and people setting off walking. Perhaps huge numbers form the City of Nottingham were out in the countryside walking. It was like a bank holiday in a national park. The traffic has also been extremely busy between 3 and 5 pm in the afternoons on weekdays and it’s not all school traffic. Where are everyone going if so many places are closed and people working from home.