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Liverpool's 'trackless tram'

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MattRat

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So I recently stumbled upon an article talking about the revival of the Liverpool tram project, but this time, on roads. Basically, it's a Bus Rapid Transit system, or BRT system. Just because it has guided roadways doesn't make it a tram, becuase that is exactly what a BRT is. Plus, it'll likely still use diesel buses since they seem so keen on cheaping out, which the opposite of what we need right now to make Liverpool a cleaner, greener city.

The whole idea just infuriated me so much, that I needed to 'talk' about it. Anyone else's input would be welcome, of course, and maybe I'm just ranting over nothing, we shall see....
 
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507021

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Plus, it'll likely still use diesel buses since they seem so keen on cheaping out, which the opposite of what we need right now to make Liverpool a cleaner, greener city.

The Liverpool City Region has placed a large order for hydrogen double deckers, so I wouldn't really call that "cheaping out". They won't be the last either.

I think some people forget just how expensive hybrid, battery and hydrogen powered vehicles are.
 

RHolmes

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There was some sort of BRT system proposed in the late 90’s that for some reason or another didn’t come to fruition.

It basically involved park & ride from the Rocket near the M62 with ‘BRT’ buses running to/from the city centre largely following the route of the SMART service 224/1 towards the city (terminating at Kings Dock?)

Ive since found the link to the original leaflet scanned in and owned by ‘Buses7675!’ on Flickr to whom the credit is due

 
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RHolmes

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SMART did happen, it ended when Arriva registered most or all of it as commercial, if I recall.

MRT was separate to SMART

SMART ended as Merseytravel was annoyed that local operators weren’t meeting the desired standards of the SMART routes, not matching their financial investment in infrastructure being put in to increase the declining bus useage of the early 00’s and that because the services were standalone, the SMART corridors would see operators like Merseyline on the 35 using a Leyland Titan or Lynx competing with the likes of Supertravel operating contract service 176 with a low floor and low emission Dennis Dart MPD.

They also claimed that Arriva effectively damaged the brand by running their own ‘le bus’ brand.
 

emoaconr

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I recently filled out a consultation which was put out by Wirral Growth Company (WMBC) and there was reference to a hypothetical future scenario where the Queensway tunnel (which will require a full deck replacement in coming decades) would become public transport only, with private vehicles moving only via Kingsway. There was hint towards the use of the previously discussed 'Wirral Streetcar' system, which was initially proposed by Peel, and features in their plans for Wirral Waters, linking the old docklands railway with the heritage tramway to serve the new development. At the same time, the dockland railway cutting between Twelve Quays and Argyle Street is proposed to be filled in or landscaped, with the land proving 'green public transport' (?) down that corridor. Presumably their plans for the streetcar go via Woodside.

Anyhow, if these plans (as distant as they may currently seem) were linked with Liverpool's plans, we could see a coherent light rail (or other?) between the city centre and Wirral. But I fear that these schemes in isolation will be rather short sighted and not a long term solution.

Even VLR in Coventry seems a little better thought out.
 

Bletchleyite

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I recently filled out a consultation which was put out by Wirral Growth Company (WMBC) and there was reference to a hypothetical future scenario where the Queensway tunnel (which will require a full deck replacement in coming decades) would become public transport only, with private vehicles moving only via Kingsway. There was hint towards the use of the previously discussed 'Wirral Streetcar' system, which was initially proposed by Peel, and features in their plans for Wirral Waters, linking the old docklands railway with the heritage tramway to serve the new development. At the same time, the dockland railway cutting between Twelve Quays and Argyle Street is proposed to be filled in or landscaped, with the land proving 'green public transport' (?) down that corridor. Presumably their plans for the streetcar go via Woodside.

Anyhow, if these plans (as distant as they may currently seem) were linked with Liverpool's plans, we could see a coherent light rail (or other?) between the city centre and Wirral. But I fear that these schemes in isolation will be rather short sighted and not a long term solution.

Even VLR in Coventry seems a little better thought out.

What an utterly stupid idea. There is an electric railway, which should be expanded and form the basis of the city's transport network as it would in Germany, with buses providing quality connections and a single mode agnostic ticketing system for the whole thing. There are a few bus routes that make sense to run through the tunnel, but nowhere near enough to want to make it public transport only.

The Wirral Line was designed for 30tph through the Loop - if it doesn't have enough coverage on the Wirral to just be filled in with connecting buses (which I don't agree is the case) then you could run tram trains through the existing tunnels, though I believe resignalling would be needed to get to the original capacity.
 

507021

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What an utterly stupid idea. There is an electric railway, which should be expanded and form the basis of the city's transport network as it would in Germany, with buses providing quality connections and a single mode agnostic ticketing system for the whole thing. There are a few bus routes that make sense to run through the tunnel, but nowhere near enough to want to make it public transport only.

I can't really add anything to this, absolutely spot on.
 

edwin_m

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I think the Loop is close to capacity so there probably isn't much scope to grow the number of public transport passengers between the Wirral and Liverpool, though I'd guess the train has a pretty good mode share already. What's the mode share of PT versus cars?

I believe the Queensway Tunnel was built with a lower deck for trams, but tracks were never laid. Wikipedia mentions emergency refuges being built below the road deck, linked by an escape passage, so I assume these would prevent any use by trams unless the road traffic was removed.
 

emoaconr

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I think the Loop is close to capacity so there probably isn't much scope to grow the number of public transport passengers between the Wirral and Liverpool, though I'd guess the train has a pretty good mode share already. What's the mode share of PT versus cars?

I believe the Queensway Tunnel was built with a lower deck for trams, but tracks were never laid. Wikipedia mentions emergency refuges being built below the road deck, linked by an escape passage, so I assume these would prevent any use by trams unless the road traffic was removed.
Yes I've been down there. There's probably room for a cycle path but little else, the refuges encroach on the tramway space fairly significantly, as do the pipes and communications cables down there. Shame it never happened, but it is probably useful for safety's sake that the space was available to build the refuges. The issue with the road deck is that it is made from reinforced concrete, and has suffered with cracks over the years. These can be seen from beneath and are monitored.

What an utterly stupid idea. There is an electric railway, which should be expanded and form the basis of the city's transport network as it would in Germany, with buses providing quality connections and a single mode agnostic ticketing system for the whole thing. There are a few bus routes that make sense to run through the tunnel, but nowhere near enough to want to make it public transport only.

The Wirral Line was designed for 30tph through the Loop - if it doesn't have enough coverage on the Wirral to just be filled in with connecting buses (which I don't agree is the case) then you could run tram trains through the existing tunnels, though I believe resignalling would be needed to get to the original capacity.
Don't shoot the messenger, that was addressed in the consultation, ha!
I cannot foresee, even in a greener more public transport friendly future, that Liverpool and Wirral bring connected by one road tunnel only. I just think they are running it by the public as it may be a cheaper alternative than full deck replacement in Queensway. They seemed keen on removing the toll plazas too.

Anyway, regardless, I just find the idea of a 'trackless tram' just an odd compromise, and I was just highlighting the lack of joined-up coherent thinking between different areas in the LCR
 
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175mph

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What an utterly stupid idea. There is an electric railway, which should be expanded and form the basis of the city's transport network as it would in Germany, with buses providing quality connections and a single mode agnostic ticketing system for the whole thing. There are a few bus routes that make sense to run through the tunnel, but nowhere near enough to want to make it public transport only.

The Wirral Line was designed for 30tph through the Loop - if it doesn't have enough coverage on the Wirral to just be filled in with connecting buses (which I don't agree is the case) then you could run tram trains through the existing tunnels, though I believe resignalling would be needed to get to the original capacity.
What's everyone's obsession with Germany? Surely Switzerland, Netherlands, Sweden, France etc have good examples to follow from as well?
 

wireforever

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As I remember the trams were due to return in a proposal several years ago but the idea was scrapped due to cost.I'm pretty sure the tracks are still in place along the central reservation from Hunts Cross asda traffic lights to Allerton Road past the Derby Arms pub and Strawberry Fields or would a expansion of Merseyrail be a better outcome certainly the Gateacre loop line closure was a poor decision in hindsight
 

Bletchleyite

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As I remember the trams were due to return in a proposal several years ago but the idea was scrapped due to cost.I'm pretty sure the tracks are still in place along the central reservation from Hunts Cross asda traffic lights to Allerton Road past the Derby Arms pub and Strawberry Fields or would a expansion of Merseyrail be a better outcome certainly the Gateacre loop line closure was a poor decision in hindsight

Closing Gateacre was a mistake, and it was always meant to be part of Merseyrail. Much further round and you start to be slower than the bus. Hence the tram idea.
 

Djgr

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Closing Gateacre was a mistake, and it was always meant to be part of Merseyrail. Much further round and you start to be slower than the bus. Hence the tram idea.
Absolutely agree about Gateacre. There is limited logic in simply offering a second service to Hunt's Cross (Lime Street v Central)
 

61653 HTAFC

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Anyway, regardless, I just find the idea of a 'trackless tram' just an odd compromise, and I was just highlighting the lack of joined-up coherent thinking between different areas in the LCR
The term "trackless tram" is so obviously marketing-speak that nobody would ever take it seriously. Everyone knows that a tram without tracks is a bus (or a trolleybus if you're lucky), so just call it what it is.

The endless t*rd-polishing by the deregulated bus industry is so tiresome. :rolleyes:
 

simple simon

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Politicians and civil servants take it seriously - because they realise that if they can hoodwink Joe Public in to accepting a motor bus because its called a 'trackless tram' then there won't be requests for funding of a real tramway

That said, such a policy failed with the Wright FTR Streetcar tram-styled articulated bus* ... as a new style articulated diesel bus it was OK, but definitely it was NOT a tram!

*I'm not sure if any of these are even still carrying passengers, nor the hybrid diesel-electric variants built for Las Vegas, USA
 

audigex

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I think the distinction for a "Trackless tram" is that it has a lot more dedicated right-of-way than most busways, and uses longer articulated vehicles.

I still think it's just a tram-like bus, rather than a trackless tram... but I can kinda see where they're going with the idea, as the vehicle is much more tram-like
 

Gostav

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I think the distinction for a "Trackless tram" is that it has a lot more dedicated right-of-way than most busways, and uses longer articulated vehicles.

I still think it's just a tram-like bus, rather than a trackless tram... but I can kinda see where they're going with the idea, as the vehicle is much more tram-like
As trolley bus, they usually don't have powerful batteries like electric bus, which means rare metal resources such as lithium can be save.
 

frodshamfella

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Closing Gateacre was a mistake, and it was always meant to be part of Merseyrail. Much further round and you start to be slower than the bus. Hence the tram idea.

Could this ever happen if the will/money was there..is there space to reinstate this. Hunts Cross always seems such an odd termination point.

Some improvement to the airport would be very agreeable, maybe from South Parkway using a tram system.
 

randyrippley

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You're talking about a city which closed all its bus lanes "to reduce congestion."
Do you really think they'll reverse that decision to cater for a "trackless tram"? No chance
 

HSTEd

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Ultimately none of these systems are actual Bus Rapid Transit as we might see it in Latin America - which is a pity.

It just devalues the term.
 
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