• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Llangollen Railway appoints receivers

Status
Not open for further replies.

Bevan Price

Established Member
Joined
22 Apr 2010
Messages
7,320
It will be interesting to see if, by having a smaller fleet, Llangollen Railway are able to deliver the same sort of service as previously and at the same time be "unburdened" by having a smaller maintenance / restoration commitment.
I suspect that, after some early success, they tried to take on more workshop work than they had people - or equipment - to complete the work in time scales acceptable to "customers".

Small businesses trying to expand too quickly seems to be a common cause of business "problems".
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Mcr Warrior

Veteran Member
Joined
8 Jan 2009
Messages
11,650
Small businesses trying to expand too quickly seems to be a common cause of business "problems".
A prolonged period of negative cashflow has unfortunately brought down many a business.

Wages, materials, the cost of premises and finance all have to be paid for, and maybe before any finished work can be signed off and invoiced for, depending on the nature of the contract.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,554
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
I suspect many from back in the day (my day being the early 80s) won’t either, as you seldom got to experience it, on most journeys the driver would pull the blinds down. I can only remember one trip with a forward view, which happily was going through the Severn Tunnel.

On the Conwy Valley they were usually up, but on the east Manchester routes mostly not.
 

47827

Member
Joined
3 Mar 2020
Messages
591
Location
Middleport
On the Conwy Valley they were usually up, but on the east Manchester routes mostly not.

I had a great many runs in the North during the 80s as a child with blinds up (but far from all of them) including 104s to Buxton to name a few. Think Hooton to Chester was one of our more common DMU routes back then though and into the early 90s. I would prefer travelling on one now if the loco type on the front wasn't desirable on a hauled set. But I'm more fussy than some people.

Back on topic, I hope the Llangollen line can find enough resources to operate its loco hauled trains properly once it can reopen. Sounds like just one longer Mk1 set will still be possible plus possibly an odd spare vehicle. The other set will be the suburban set, which will be quite odd with any larger locos. Imagine it will tend to be the diesel set though as the dmu diagram is often loco hauled with the 26/31/47 diesel options. This is a shame. I respect the dmu drag options aren't healthy for the sets if done too often although personally wouldn't complain if 2 or 3 sets could be buckled together for a loco drag day. Regardless, do wish the line well and hope it gets back on its feet so I can visit when things are a bit more normal again. Had plenty of nice days on it. Can't help thinking without covid it would have been easier for the line to last without support.
 
Joined
19 Aug 2015
Messages
83
Although sad to see a number of it assets sold off, including the crane to scrap, the plc only have themselves to blame.

Out of curiosity, what steam, diesel, railcar and carriage rolling stock will be based at llangollen going forward I.e. mixture of assets owned by the trustees and other owners. Can't seem to find a list anywhere
 

RuralRambler

Member
Joined
7 Aug 2020
Messages
152
Location
Brentford
I suspect that, after some early success, they tried to take on more workshop work than they had people - or equipment - to complete the work in time scales acceptable to "customers".

Small businesses trying to expand too quickly seems to be a common cause of business "problems".
Indeed, various figures suggest less than half of new small businesses are still in business after 3-4 years.

"Over trading" is one of the most common problems, where the capital base just isn't great enough to cover the working capital requirements of growth, i.e. having to pay for extra staff, buying in materials, renting larger premises, leasing more equipment, etc. to be able to service more and larger orders, all before the work is done and monies received - it can be some months between having to spend the money to be able to do the work and actually receiving money from the customer for the work done. Lots of businesses have gone under with very healthy order books.

Although sad to see a number of it assets sold off, including the crane to scrap, the plc only have themselves to blame.

Yes, obviously, the people running/managing the business need to keep on top of the finances.

BUT, the likes of banks and other lenders are very often far too quick to pull the plug. Often, something as simple as not being able to pay the usual monthly loan repayment or the company exceeding the overdraft limit by a small amount can cause the bank to freeze the company's bank account which is effectively it's death-knell as it can't then pay it's staff, other suppliers, etc. Yes, that's not really the bank's "fault" as they're allowed to do that as part of their terms & conditions, and, of course, the directors should be on top of the finances and should have forecast/anticipated running out of money, but these things can happen very quickly. Even just a customer not paying money they'd promised to pay on x date can cause the bank overdraft to be frozen and the downward spiral to happen very quickly.
 
Last edited:

paul1609

Established Member
Joined
28 Jan 2006
Messages
7,190
Location
Wittersham Kent
Back on topic, I hope the Llangollen line can find enough resources to operate its loco hauled trains properly once it can reopen. Sounds like just one longer Mk1 set will still be possible plus possibly an odd spare vehicle. The other set will be the suburban set, which will be quite odd with any larger locos. Imagine it will tend to be the diesel set though as the dmu diagram is often loco hauled with the 26/31/47 diesel options. This is a shame. I respect the dmu drag options aren't healthy for the sets if done too often although personally wouldn't complain if 2 or 3 sets could be buckled together for a loco drag day. Regardless, do wish the line well and hope it gets back on its feet so I can visit when things are a bit more normal again. Had plenty of nice days on it. Can't help thinking without covid it would have been easier for the line to last without support.
Im not sure how many of the sold vehicles were actually servicable. I know of at least one vehicle that has been bought on the basis that it needs new wheelsets.
 
Last edited:

47827

Member
Joined
3 Mar 2020
Messages
591
Location
Middleport
Im not sure how many of the sold vechiles were actually servicable. I know of at least one vehicle that has been bought on the basis that it needs new wheelsets.

I had mainly been thinking of the ones shunted into the station for potential buyers to look at. Although I understand there may have been some that need work completing immediately to allow any carriage of passengers. I'm sure I'd heard a number of the useable, or near useable ones were included in the tender process, where owned by the party that's accumulated the debt to cause the situation in question.
 

47434

Member
Joined
27 Jan 2018
Messages
134
But Wensleydale, on cost grounds, now pulling back from steam.
Not entirely correct. Polar Express remains steam hauled and I recall their traction policy stating that steam was very much on the agenda but not in the immediate short term
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
17,686
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
I am sure you are correct but there are a few exceptions
We had the opposite experience on the Great Central at one of their Galas
We wanted breakfast in a griddle car but despite them apparantly selling 4 times the usual amount they had run out of bacon and sausages.
On another occasion the Bluebell Cafe thing did a roaring trade of pie and mash on a winter gala.
They kept it ever so simple which no doubt helps...
Meat pie or veg pie mash and peas
Spooners on the Ffestiniog always seems busy

I’d say the Porthmadog one is a bit of a special case - despite being a honeypot destination, Porthmadog isn’t brimming with places to eat, and Spooners serves the local population as a pub/restaurant, almost like a pseudo-Wetherspoon, albeit more expensive. It’s also in a highly accessible location.

Llangollen is a different case unfortunately. There’s more competition in the surrounding area, and the demographic is very different to Porthmadog. You’d certainly have scope for afternoon teas served on the platforms with the view and sound of the river on a nice warm sunny day, but that’s as far as it is likely to go unfortunately.

A lot of the problem with Llangollen seems to be the clientele it attracts. Day trippers from places like Wrexham who simply aren’t really going to bother with the railway, and the sort of holidaymakers who go there are in a lot of cases the types who have probably barely been on a train all their life. This leaves a smattering of retired-type people, and coach tours, albeit with stiff completion from numerous other heritage railways in that corner of Wales as well as other attractions.

It doesn’t help that parking around Llangollen station is quite limited. Not something bothersome for me, but I’m sure it’s an issue for some.
 

alexl92

Established Member
Joined
12 Oct 2014
Messages
2,268
Not entirely correct. Polar Express remains steam hauled and I recall their traction policy stating that steam was very much on the agenda but not in the immediate short term
True, but they are pulling back in terms of not hiring in a resident steam locomotive this summer as they have done previously.
 

paul1609

Established Member
Joined
28 Jan 2006
Messages
7,190
Location
Wittersham Kent
True, but they are pulling back in terms of not hiring in a resident steam locomotive this summer as they have done previously.
The Wensleydale is to be honest a one of a kind financial model in terms of heritage railways. When it was formed they were adament that it was not a heritage railway but a community railway operating a quasi public transport service even though that model had failed elsewhere. It has since morphed in to a diesel heritage railway with special events but it must have considerably more longterm infrastructure costs than any other railway of this type, even without any of the extensions.
 

EbbwJunction1

Established Member
Joined
25 Mar 2010
Messages
1,565
Apparently the management at Llangollen have reached a deal with the new owner of the large crane, which means that it will remain on the railway for the foreseeable future and will not be broken up for scrap.
 

WesternLancer

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
6,999
Apparently the management at Llangollen have reached a deal with the new owner of the large crane, which means that it will remain on the railway for the foreseeable future and will not be broken up for scrap.
That's good to hear.
 

Tomos y Tanc

Member
Joined
1 Jul 2019
Messages
640
Llangollen is a different case unfortunately. There’s more competition in the surrounding area, and the demographic is very different to Porthmadog. You’d certainly have scope for afternoon teas served on the platforms with the view and sound of the river on a nice warm sunny day, but that’s as far as it is likely to go unfortunately.

A lot of the problem with Llangollen seems to be the clientele it attracts. Day trippers from places like Wrexham who simply aren’t really going to bother with the railway, and the sort of holidaymakers who go there are in a lot of cases the types who have probably barely been on a train all their life. This leaves a smattering of retired-type people, and coach tours, albeit with stiff completion from numerous other heritage railways in that corner of Wales as well as other attractions.

It doesn’t help that parking around Llangollen station is quite limited. Not something bothersome for me, but I’m sure it’s an issue for some.
At the risk of straying off topic, Llangollen will be part of the new Clwydian Hills National Park which is due to be designated shortly. It will be the first new national park to established in Wales since 1957 and only the fifth to be designated in the UK since the turn of the century

Over time, national park status is likely to lead to a change both in the nature of the tourism offer and the kind of visitors who are attracted to the area. Not that that helps the railway in the short term, of course.
 

Tynwald

Member
Joined
18 Mar 2016
Messages
175
Wonder what is happening to to other shunters. Sure I heard that the 03 had been sold to the railway not that long ago.
 

kje7812

Member
Joined
1 May 2018
Messages
400
Location
York or Kidderminster
Mark 1 TSO 4702 (the one with the highest selling price of over £38k) has been announced as being purchased by the Mid-Norfolk Railway. On a post of FB, it shown as having already arrived at Dereham.
 

WesternLancer

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
6,999
Mark 1 TSO 4702 (the one with the highest selling price of over £38k) has been announced as being purchased by the Mid-Norfolk Railway. On a post of FB, it shown as having already arrived at Dereham.
maybe they had some decent funds with the rolling stock storage fees from GA etc that they made good use of their track with!
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,556
Location
Mold, Clwyd
At the risk of straying off topic, Llangollen will be part of the new Clwydian Hills National Park which is due to be designated shortly. It will be the first new national park to established in Wales since 1957 and only the fifth to be designated in the UK since the turn of the century

Over time, national park status is likely to lead to a change both in the nature of the tourism offer and the kind of visitors who are attracted to the area. Not that that helps the railway in the short term, of course.
I didn't know that. And I live in it (the current AONB). ;)
That could only improve the tourism offer, and footfall.
 

slimmole

Member
Joined
4 Aug 2016
Messages
7
But Wensleydale, on cost grounds, now pulling back from steam.
This is only a temporary measure while we re-open from Covid lockdown. We have been closed for nearly 15 months and currently dont have any resident steam traction that we can use, which then requires us to hire in a loco at anything from £600 to £1200 a day. Add to that costs of road transport to/from the railway and we need to be able to ensure we have enough passengers to cover those costs. With the uncertainty of lockdown roll back and the current restrictions on seating we made the decision to reopen using our Pacer fleet, then see how numbers pan out before looking at more interesting traction on some services.

Long term the railway is planning to obtain our own suitable steam locomotives and creating servicing facilities for them, ash disposal pit, water crane etc.
 

alexl92

Established Member
Joined
12 Oct 2014
Messages
2,268
In recent months, statements by the Llangollen Trust have referred to the trust having 3 steam locomotives - Hudswell Clarke 1731 of 1942 Samuel Fox No.20/Jennifer, Kitson 5459 of 1932 Austin 1 and GWR Pannier 7754.

I've just seen a screenshot of an article about Llangollen reopening which states that the trust owns two locomotives - Austin 1 and 7754. Has Jennifer been sold or is this just an error?
 

fgwrich

Established Member
Joined
15 Apr 2009
Messages
9,252
Location
Between Edinburgh and Exeter
Another surprise move is former MK1 RBR W1697 which has now moved from Llangollen to Buckfastleigh for restoration to commence there. This was also one of the Mk1s for sale in the auction and is no stranger to Devon, being both a former western region MK1 and a former Meldon Quarry resident.
 

kje7812

Member
Joined
1 May 2018
Messages
400
Location
York or Kidderminster
Another surprise move is former MK1 RBR W1697 which has now moved from Llangollen to Buckfastleigh for restoration to commence there. This was also one of the Mk1s for sale in the auction and is no stranger to Devon, being both a former western region MK1 and a former Meldon Quarry resident.
This wasn't actually PLC owned. It was put in the sale for convenience. I believe it didn't sell and the owner has now decided to take it elsewhere.
 

headshot119

Established Member
Joined
31 Dec 2010
Messages
2,052
Location
Dubai
This wasn't actually PLC owned. It was put in the sale for convenience. I believe it didn't sell and the owner has now decided to take it elsewhere.

If it's the blue RBR that was dumped up at Carrog for many years, it was owned by High Shipton who is an ex director of the now failed PLC. Hopefully if any paid for work is being done on it at Buckfastleigh they've had the money for it in advance.
 

Marmaduke

Member
Joined
4 Dec 2017
Messages
82
This is only a temporary measure while we re-open from Covid lockdown. We have been closed for nearly 15 months and currently dont have any resident steam traction that we can use, which then requires us to hire in a loco at anything from £600 to £1200 a day. Add to that costs of road transport to/from the railway and we need to be able to ensure we have enough passengers to cover those costs. With the uncertainty of lockdown roll back and the current restrictions on seating we made the decision to reopen using our Pacer fleet, then see how numbers pan out before looking at more interesting traction on some services.

Long term the railway is planning to obtain our own suitable steam locomotives and creating servicing facilities for them, ash disposal pit, water crane etc.
I think anyone who isn't acquainted with the WR should make a visit - Yes they aren't at NYMR \ Severn Valley levels, however there is a great new impetus at the WR these days. Yes it centres around diesels, with quite a lot of Pacers appeared to be stored on site at Leeming Bar, but after all its a very long line.
They've got a proven GM in place now with clearly a supportive PLC and Trust.
I have visited a couple of times over last month and been on a guided tour of the refurbished LB Station House - Its magnificent!! What a start to a journey when they get back to full operations.
There's a new toilet block being built presently in keeping with the bricks on the Station House - The guy whose doing it (Dave?) is a really nice guy, very informative and positive- Superb craftsman as well.
Went round the Station House with the Heritage Officer, Will. What a guy, enthusiasm in bucket loads, knowledgeable and keen as mustard - simply wanted you to enjoy the experience. I called on the off chance to take a few photos. Met an Electrician, lovely guy, who welcomed me and thanked me for coming to the railway!! Never had that before!! I asked him what was happening on the railway, he too was knowledgeable and pointed out a few things, then took me to Will who was great.
That day struck me - I must have spoken to at least 6 or 7 volunteers \ paid staff and all were a real pleasure to speak to - all took time out to speak with me and were extremely polite.
Keep up the good work WR!!
 

fourtytwo

Member
Joined
2 Jun 2021
Messages
75
Location
Norfolk UK
How sad, I have been on this beautiful little railway and many others. As a volunteer myself many years ago involved in locomotive repairs I have long wondered about the contracting out of work at huge expense but the operating PLC's seem to think this is the only way forwards rather then relying upon a once plentiful pool of professional volunteers. Of course Covid has been / is very stressful for any business especially any already teetering.
 
Last edited:

D6130

Established Member
Joined
12 Jan 2021
Messages
5,652
Location
West Yorkshire/Tuscany
I see from Rail Advent that GWR 2-8-0 no. 3802 has been undergoing steam tests over the last couple of days following overhaul and has made its first trip into Llangollen station, so hopefully should be available to haul service trains once the railway reopens.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top