Llangollen Railway appoints receivers

[John Luxton]

What concerns me about Llangollen is the major infrastructure they have - the Dee Bridge and the tunnel. Neither of those are cheap or easy to maintain, and any period of neglect could lead to costs mounting up to the point where the infrastructure is unusable.

The bridge was being dealt with this winter as they had raised separate funds for that. But what worries me about that bridge is just how vulnerable it could be should there be an extreme weather event. The Dee can be very turbulent and I am sure regular visitors to the line will have noticed how the retaining wall by the Chainbridge Hotel has been undermined and subsequently repaired several times. When I was last in the line in March 2020 I noticed that once again that wall despite being repaired a couple of years earlier was once again being undermined. The bridge is probably the line's weakest spot. If only the clock could be turned back to the 70s and the push had been towards Ruabon then the railway could have been really useful and could have survived without relying on the bridge. Given that the demise of this line as a through route was premature to the official closing date due to flooding I wonder how much consideration has been given to the proximity of the Dee and possible problems?

 

[paul1609]

Heritage Railways do not, imho, employ paid staff because they want to. They employ paid staff because they have to. A combination of the need to ensure certain roles are staffed on every running day, roles that are full time business critical, roles that volunteers are not willing to carry out or have the skills set / competencies to carry out create the need to employ paid staff. Ironically the problems of recruiting seasonal staff seems to have encouraged some heritage railways to employ staff on a full time basis when perhaps arguably they are not needed 5 days a week year round, but 6 days a week in the summer and not at all in November, January and February (excluding half term).

As staff costs seem to rise inexorably year on year (in part caused by NLW / NMW and compulsory pension schemes) heritage railway finances are put under more and more pressure. Farebox revenues alone will not meet the total cost of running a heritage railway. Donations, legacies and grants are all needed to balance the books.

I fear that the economics of the industry are moving towards the point where some of the weaker heritage railways will go to the wall simply because they can not balance the books.

I do wonder if rather than trying to do more (which seems invariably to require more paid staff) , some heritage railways would be more financially secure if they did less so they could dispense with some paid staff and possibly dare I say it reduce the fleet size.

One point to ponder is "Santa Specials". yes they are a big revenue generator but do they justify all the costs which are incurred especially if it means having year round paid staff compared with say opening for Easter and Closing end of October (or even perish the thought closing end of September when the traffic on many heritage railways falls very considerably).

I can only speak for my railway but the Santa Specials are a major earner for the railway and basically what puts money in the bank and the cashflow for the business through till about May. We had sufficient reserves to survive cancelling the santas this year when Kent was placed in tier three but its been a big knock back.

 

[JonathanH]

The West Somerset Railway should just give up and join the mainline public railway system for example

You can have that view but for the West Somerset Railway to be part of the mainline public railway again would involve a complete rebuild requiring substantial capital investment from local or national government that isn't available and an ongoing subsidy. It just isn't going to happen.

Either the West Somerset Railway continues to function as a preserved railway or it is ripped up and sold off for scrap. Those are the only two options.

 

[reddragon]

You can have that view but for the West Somerset Railway to be part of the mainline public railway again would involve a complete rebuild requiring substantial capital investment from local or national government that isn't available and an ongoing subsidy. It just isn't going to happen.

Either the West Somerset Railway continues to function as a preserved railway or it is ripped up and sold off for scrap. Those are the only two options.

For that to happen and for it survive, maybe a passenger operating grant could be awarded to make the railway viable and dare I say franchise the operation in part to operate a decent service from Taunton to Minehead.

Perhaps that way a progressive case could be built to gradually upgrade the line?

Back to Llangollen, another excellent railway but it needs viability, joint working with local groups, maybe Park & Ride operations for Llangollen? Scaling back operations to something that is viable either commercially or as a volunteer led operation operating less days per year until it gets on its feet.

 

[JonathanH]

For that to happen and for it survive, maybe a passenger operating grant could be awarded to make the railway viable and dare I say franchise the operation in part to operate a decent service from Taunton to Minehead.

Perhaps that way a progressive case could be built to gradually upgrade the line?

At 25mph and with manual signalling it just isn't going to work. That is probably why it was shut in the first place.

Back to Llangollen, another excellent railway but it needs viability, joint working with local groups, maybe Park & Ride operations for Llangollen? Scaling back operations to something that is viable either commercially or as a volunteer led operation operating less days per year until it gets on its feet.

Llangollen - yes, a park and ride for Llangollen would be a great source of income (eg like Swanage) but most people going there would have to first drive through Llangollen to get to the car park. In many ways, it is a shame that it didn't get any line on the east side (and as discussed previously, that isn't a possibility now).

The line is in a great setting but there isn't really somewhere obvious for Llangollen park and ride in a rural location.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

Plenty of trains to Rhiwabon, plenty of buses from there to Llangollen

 

[kje7812]

Heritage Railways do not, imho, employ paid staff because they want to. They employ paid staff because they have to. A combination of the need to ensure certain roles are staffed on every running day, roles that are full time business critical, roles that volunteers are not willing to carry out or have the skills set / competencies to carry out create the need to employ paid staff. Ironically the problems of recruiting seasonal staff seems to have encouraged some heritage railways to employ staff on a full time basis when perhaps arguably they are not needed 5 days a week year round, but 6 days a week in the summer and not at all in November, January and February (excluding half term).

As staff costs seem to rise inexorably year on year (in part caused by NLW / NMW and compulsory pension schemes) heritage railway finances are put under more and more pressure. Farebox revenues alone will not meet the total cost of running a heritage railway. Donations, legacies and grants are all needed to balance the books.

I fear that the economics of the industry are moving towards the point where some of the weaker heritage railways will go to the wall simply because they can not balance the books.

I do wonder if rather than trying to do more (which seems invariably to require more paid staff) , some heritage railways would be more financially secure if they did less so they could dispense with some paid staff and possibly dare I say it reduce the fleet size.

One point to ponder is "Santa Specials". yes they are a big revenue generator but do they justify all the costs which are incurred especially if it means having year round paid staff compared with say opening for Easter and Closing end of October (or even perish the thought closing end of September when the traffic on many heritage railways falls very considerably).

In my experience Santas provide a huge income boost. Passenger numbers in May/June and September are very variable and thus can not be relied upon to cover costs. Even Easter running can be hit and miss, busy one year, quiet the next.

Plenty of trains to Rhiwabon, plenty of buses from there to Llangollen

Multiple changes of transport put people off. I know it does for me.

 

[Titfield]

In my experience Santas provide a huge income boost. Passenger numbers in May/June and September are very variable and thus can not be relied upon to cover costs. Even Easter running can be hit and miss, busy one year, quiet the next.

Yes agreed on some heritage railways Santas are a huge income boost but less so on others.

As regards Easter, given its variable date and the variable weather, I have always advocated viewing March and April en bloc for the purposes of comparison rather than just taking the Easter week / fortnight in isolation.

 

[WesternLancer]

What happens in these instances - I assume the PLC trading bit of the railway has no or next to no assets - so the only option the Receiver has is to close it down or take it over and restructure it to see if they can get it back up and running as a viable business, presumably - I guess with the active help and partnership of the charitable trust bit of the railway? From that income then there has to be some plan to try to repay the creditors - who are presumably people like - staff with unpaid wages, suppliers of certain goods, and people unhappy with the work they commissioned from the engineering workshops mentioned up thread?

 

[willgreen]

I don't think you can definitively say that, if a heritage railway were to go bust, the line could never rejoin the national network. Several lines have their trackbed owned by councils, and the permanent way will usually be in a fairly good state (better than rebuilding from scratch). Obviously 25mph is not going to lend itself to main line running but most (probably all) of these lines wouldn't require anything more than, say, a 2- or 3-car DMU shuttling back and forth; the track doesn't need to be fantastic, though upgrades would be required to increase the speed at least a bit.

 

[221129]

if a heritage railway were to go bust, the line could never rejoin the national network.

Ermm yes it can.

 

[paul1609]

Llangollen - yes, a park and ride for Llangollen would be a great source of income (eg like Swanage) but most people going there would have to first drive through Llangollen to get to the car park. In many ways, it is a shame that it didn't get any line on the east side (and as discussed previously, that isn't a possibility now).

The line is in a great setting but there isn't really somewhere obvious for Llangollen park and ride in a rural location.

Even the Swanage isn't really a park and ride scheme although its marketed as such. In reality its a simple platform alongside the council run and operated Purbrook Park Car Park there's no park and ride tickets etc. https://www.dorsetcouncil.gov.uk/parking/find-a-carpark/purbeck-park.aspx

 

[simonw]

What happens in these instances - I assume the PLC trading bit of the railway has no or next to no assets - so the only option the Receiver has is to close it down or take it over and restructure it to see if they can get it back up and running as a viable business, presumably - I guess with the active help and partnership of the charitable trust bit of the railway? From that income then there has to be some plan to try to repay the creditors - who are presumably people like - staff with unpaid wages, suppliers of certain goods, and people unhappy with the work they commissioned from the engineering workshops mentioned up thread?

it is rare for a company that ends up in receivership to come out the Other side as a viable business.

 

[reddragon]

Even the Swanage isn't really a park and ride scheme although its marketed as such. In reality its a simple platform alongside the council run and operated Purbrook Park Car Park there's no park and ride tickets etc. https://www.dorsetcouncil.gov.uk/parking/find-a-carpark/purbeck-park.aspx

But it at least allows you to park . . . . and then . . ride! unlike Llangollen

 

[willgreen]

Ermm yes it can.

Read my post fully

 

[WesternLancer]

it is rare for a company that ends up in receivership to come out the Other side as a viable business.

I see - but then these set ups are not 'conventional' companies - they are trading arms of charities - so all the assets to run the 'company' are still there and not available to the receiver - they have lost their debt on bankruptcy - and are presumably free to set up and run the railway again - just needs a viable business and operational plan - I would have thought, but don't know....

 

[221129]

Read my post fully

I did. You made a statement that said a line that has gone bust can never rejoin the national network.

That is false. No matter what else you add to it that statement is false.

 

[35B]

I don't think you can definitively say that, if a heritage railway were to go bust, the line could never rejoin the national network. Several lines have their trackbed owned by councils, and the permanent way will usually be in a fairly good state (better than rebuilding from scratch). Obviously 25mph is not going to lend itself to main line running but most (probably all) of these lines wouldn't require anything more than, say, a 2- or 3-car DMU shuttling back and forth; the track doesn't need to be fantastic, though upgrades would be required to increase the speed at least a bit.

I did. You made a statement that said a line that has gone bust can never rejoin the national network.

That is false. No matter what else you add to it that statement is false.

I think @221129 needs to read the whole statement, which does not say what is suggested. I'd actually be more optimistic than @willgreen, as the 25mph limit on preserved lines is generally to do with the legal regime they operate under, not a fundamental constraints of the railway itself.

However, this has little or nothing to do with Llangollen, where the trackbed to Ruabon is now firmly severed.

 

[WesternLancer]

I did. You made a statement that said a line that has gone bust can never rejoin the national network.

That is false. No matter what else you add to it that statement is false.

Haven't you missed the double negative in the post referred to (which you have not quoted fully)? I read it as saying the exact opposite - that a line that has gone bust could rejoin the network - obv subject to various funding and govt bodies making it happen.

"I don't think you can definitively say that, if a heritage railway were to go bust, the line could never rejoin the national network."

 

[willgreen]

I did. You made a statement that said a line that has gone bust can never rejoin the national network.

That is false. No matter what else you add to it that statement is false.

I didn't phrase it entirely clearly but I still think it's obvious what I meant - 'you can't say that a heritage line can't rejoin the network' i.e. 'it is not impossible for a heritage line to rejoin the network.'

I think @221129 needs to read the whole statement, which does not say what is suggested. I'd actually be more optimistic than @willgreen, as the 25mph limit on preserved lines is generally to do with the legal regime they operate under, not a fundamental constraints of the railway itself.

However, this has little or nothing to do with Llangollen, where the trackbed to Ruabon is now firmly severed.

Yep, this is a fair point - I'm aware that the conversation is fairly off-topic...

 

[Dunfanaghy Rd]

I didn't phrase it entirely clearly but I still think it's obvious what I meant - 'you can't say that a heritage line can't rejoin the network' i.e. 'it is not impossible for a heritage line to rejoin the network.'


Yep, this is a fair point - I'm aware that the conversation is fairly off-topic...

Just as well as they would be wasting their time at Okehampton otherwise!
Pat

 

[willgreen]

Just as well as they would be wasting their time at Okehampton otherwise!
Pat

Yes, absolutely! I suppose Okehampton is a little different in the sense that there has been semi-regular freight on the line, but that's no different to plenty of other heritage operations.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Reading Steam Railway it appears that one other preservation scheme sent one of its locos to Llangollen for overhaul, but it was removed because the work done did not improve the loco's condition, - apparently the reverse. Another group employed them to fit some newly made parts to their loco., but, after removal from the site, it was found that the work had not been done satisfactorily and, in the process of dismantling to re-assemble correctly, the new parts were damaged beyond repair. These are of course only one side of the story, but. if true, it might be reasonable for the organisations concerned to try to recover costs from Llangollen. If the administration means that they will not be able to do this, it will have a knock-on effect on those other groups' finances.
Having visited the Llangollen a few times (not recently) I have the following observations to make;
Parking in Llangollen seems to be actively discouraged. Fair enough to park at the station at the other end, but the timetable seemed to be based on Llangollen, so if one went to the other end, one misses out on the first and last trips - relevant on a Gala Day as individual locos do not work all day.
Having been charged a tidy amount for a Gala Day ticket on the day, I was then asked for another £5 for a timetable !!!
My experience of the Llangollen buffet staff was similar to the view posted up-thread - i.e., negative and unhelpful. But, sadly, I've had experiences of catering at other steam railways that makes this seem far from unusual.

 

[John Luxton]

I don't think you can definitively say that, if a heritage railway were to go bust, the line could never rejoin the national network. Several lines have their trackbed owned by councils, and the permanent way will usually be in a fairly good state (better than rebuilding from scratch). Obviously 25mph is not going to lend itself to main line running but most (probably all) of these lines wouldn't require anything more than, say, a 2- or 3-car DMU shuttling back and forth; the track doesn't need to be fantastic, though upgrades would be required to increase the speed at least a bit.

We only have to look to Dartmoor Railway. Heritage operation goes bust in 2020 will re-join the network in 2021 with eight trains a day to Exeter. I am sure in such circumstances it be better to have a regular service than just rely on the heritage option which to be honest on the line was not particularly attractive and I am saying that having used it quite a few times.

 

[D6130]

At 25mph and with manual signalling it just isn't going to work. That is probably why it was shut in the first place.



Llangollen - yes, a park and ride for Llangollen would be a great source of income (eg like Swanage) but most people going there would have to first drive through Llangollen to get to the car park. In many ways, it is a shame that it didn't get any line on the east side (and as discussed previously, that isn't a possibility now).

The line is in a great setting but there isn't really somewhere obvious for Llangollen park and ride in a rural location.

To be fair, the maximum permitted line speed on the West Somerset in BR days was considerably more than 25 mph. I can't recall the exact figure but, IIRC, it was in the region of 45-55 mph. Perhaps someone on here (Taunton?) who has a pre-1971 sectional appendix could confirm?

 

[paul1609]

To be fair, the maximum permitted line speed on the West Somerset in BR days was considerably more than 25 mph. I can't recall the exact figure but, IIRC, it was in the region of 45-55 mph. Perhaps someone on here (Taunton?) who has a pre-1971 sectional appendix could confirm?

That doesn't necessarily mean that the ex BR speeds could be easily (cheaply) reinstated. Id imagine the level crossings (road, UWC and footpath) would be problematic. Oakhampton was a heritage operation over a privately operated freight line with I think a limit of 40. As the Llangollen connection to the national network is as I understand built over its unlikely to happen there I think.

 

[D6130]

That doesn't necessarily mean that the ex BR speeds could be easily (cheaply) reinstated. Id imagine the level crossings (road, UWC and footpath) would be problematic. Oakhampton was a heritage operation over a privately operated freight line with I think a limit of 40. As the Llangollen connection to the national network is as I understand built over its unlikely to happen there I think.

Yes, I fully agree. My comment was made in the context of the implication in response #65 that the West Somerset may have originally been closed by BR because of a 25 mph speed limit and manual signalling.

 

[Parham Wood]

There are about 416 public car park spaces in Llangollen. I am not sure how well they are signed as I did not realise as a frequent visitor where two of the larger parks were, but I would not have been looking at the signs! There is also some on street parking. Whether this is enough I don't know but from experience I imagine it would suffice except perhaps for peak times. A lot of visitors come by coach either as a stop over or a few hours stop before going on to the mountains or coast. How many coach party timings allow for a train trip I don't know. This may explain the crowds on the bridge which do not travel. (The river in flood is also quite a sight from the bridge and btw East Street car park can flood at high river levels). So I am not sure how much parking is really an issue in terms of affecting the numbers of people travelling. It looks as though they normally get a healthy patronage but whether this offsets the line's operating costs it was not clear from the 2019 accounts. Certainly the engineering business was the main contributor to the loss and the accounts reported 32 paid employees in "engineering" but this would have included part time and any engineering staff required to run the railway I assume. Whether this extended to footplate or signalling staff it was not clear. Only a few other admin staff were listed in the accounts.

 

[Titfield]

It is highly unlikely that fare revenue alone will cover the operating costs of a heritage railway even with predominantly "volunteer labour". The shortfall is usually made up by general donations and legacies as well as some ancillary income from catering and retail activities. Capital requirements are funded by donations, legacies, specific appeals and grants.

The challenge is that operating costs and capital requirements are generally increasing at a faster rate than fare revenue and other sources of income.

Compliance with regulatory requirements including having an effective and proven Safety Management System (SMS) is essential. The regulatory authorities are increasingly focusing on compliance by HRs given the well publicised failures on two HRs in the SW of England. Paid members of staff are becoming essential to ensure compliance and business continuity thus placing a greater financial burden on Heritage Railways.

 

[paul1609]

I think that in normal times at least it would be possible to run a minimalist heritage railway service on my railway from the farebox and direct commercial income but it would be a much less attractive to enthusiast railway. I think that youd have a fleet of maybe half a dozen locos, all mk1 rplling stock, get rid of most of the signalling. Most of our donations and legacies are actually going to the icing on the cake even though that may not be clear from the accounts.