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LNER Class 91/Mk4 service status/withdrawals/2021 refurbishment

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Jamesrob637

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The proposed new LNER timetable for May 2022 puts the extra 1tp2h Leeds service back to a long-term aim, and suggests most Middlesbrough services will be curtailed at York until 2023. I am no expert but it would not surprise me to see the 91s/Mk4s being needed for only a very small number of diagrams (if any).

In fact I'd struggle to see how they'd cope with the proposed new timings for the Leeds service (5/10 minutes faster but all services now making at least two calls south of Doncaster).

So Leeds would get 5 trains per 120 minutes?
 
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swt_passenger

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So Leeds would get 5 trains per 120 minutes?
Yes, that’s what’s been consistently consulted on for quite a few years, since about 2016. In the Dec 2016 ECML track access application the “5th” Leeds train used alternate paths with the 0.5 tph Lincoln service, and back then was expected to start in May 2020.
 

Swimbar

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Agreed, I would think that in the medium-term (once all the overhauls they were recently stood down for are complete) it shouldn't be too big a stretch to go for 5 out of 7 sets running each day (would that be 71.4% availability?) Just a shame they have to be based in Leeds now which makes bringing them back to the Anglo-Scot fasts (where they would be best-suited) rather problematic. If I recall correctly the debate on the TfW mark 4s is assuming they will run 6 out of their 7 short sets albeit possibly not making full use of them at weekends. 5 out of 7 for LNER would still seem less stretched than other fleets at various operators.
Regardless whether it's 3 or 4 HSTs XC get running out of a fleet of 5, it's still better than LNER's 3 out of 7 for the Mark 4 fleet which was the point I was trying to make. If XC can get 3 sets out of 5 running, that's a 60% availability rate - 3 out of 7 for the Mark 4 fleet is only 43% availability which is pretty poor. 4 out of 7 Mark 4 sets running each day would be 57% availability, which is still lower than what XC get out of their HSTs and therefore I don't think it's unreasonable to expect LNER to be at least making efforts to get that out of the 91+Mark 4 fleet.
The XC sets entered service after major rebuilding at Doncaster.
The Mk4's have entered service having been allowed to deteriorate as they were going to be scrapped but a late decision was made to keep some of them for further service. The Azuma debacle means they have been pressed into service earlier than anticipated and once they have received remedial attention availability should increase.
I think at the moment arguments regarding availability of XC and LNER is comparing apples with pears!
 

Rhydgaled

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The Azuma debacle means they have been pressed into service earlier than anticipated and once they have received remedial attention availability should increase.
I agree, which is why I said 5 out of 7 sets in "the medium-term (once all the overhauls they were recently stood down for are complete)" - I can understand that availability could be poor while some of the fleet are due for overhaul and not particularly fit for service.
 

greyman42

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Due to the incidents at Stevenage and Rossington with 8xx's, are there any plans to introduce extra 91 sets on the ECML?
 

DanNCL

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91124+NL15 failed this morning on 1A09 06:30 Bradford - Kings Cross between Peterborough and Huntingdon. The set has now returned to Peterborough, but was blocking the southbound line for just under an hour.

91130+NL26 failed this afternoon prior to working 1D17 14:05 Kings Cross - Leeds. Set being dragged to Neville Hill by 67012. No in service failures for a while, and now two in as many days!
 
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DanNCL

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91107 moved light loco from Doncaster Wabtec to Neville Hill yesterday, with 91106 moving the opposite direction.

Can anyone provide an update on the status of 91114 and 91127 please? As far as I know both are at Neville Hill, but neither have been in service since January, are these two likely to be returning to service anytime soon?
 

800001

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91107 moved light loco from Doncaster Wabtec to Neville Hill yesterday, with 91106 moving the opposite direction.

Can anyone provide an update on the status of 91114 and 91127 please? As far as I know both are at Neville Hill, but neither have been in service since January, are these two likely to be returning to service anytime soon?
91114 is available at Neville Hill.
91127 is at Doncaster Wabtec
 

AndyDeltic19

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127 was showing on wnxx as being in Belmont Yard but went past yesterday and couldn't visual anything other than what I presume to be the line of off lease locos. Also went past Neville Hill and could see three 91s I couldn't identify, plus 110. I am currently chasing 107 and 127 myself, a little frustrating.
 

Tractor37

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127 was showing on wnxx as being in Belmont Yard but went past yesterday and couldn't visual anything other than what I presume to be the line of off lease locos. Also went past Neville Hill and could see three 91s I couldn't identify, plus 110. I am currently chasing 107 and 127 myself, a little frustrating.
91107 is currently in the yard at Neville Hill at the east end. Unattached to any coaching stock but not normally visible from the mainline due to IET’s etc blocking the view. Its just come back from overhaul at Doncaster this last week so might be putting an appearance in on the mainline soon.
 

800001

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127 was showing on wnxx as being in Belmont Yard but went past yesterday and couldn't visual anything other than what I presume to be the line of off lease locos. Also went past Neville Hill and could see three 91s I couldn't identify, plus 110. I am currently chasing 107 and 127 myself, a little frustrating.
107 NL
127 Wabtec

91107 is currently in the yard at Neville Hill at the east end. Unattached to any coaching stock but not normally visible from the mainline due to IET’s etc blocking the view. Its just come back from overhaul at Doncaster this last week so might be putting an appearance in on the mainline soon.
91107 it getting put onto NL26 tonight, and is booked to work the following on Tuesday 28/06:-

1A09 0630 Bradford to Kings
1D09 1003 Kings to Leeds
1A30 1245 Leeds to Kings
1D21 1603 Kings to Leeds
1A48 1845 Leeds to Kings
1D33 2133 Kings to Leeds
 
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tubeuser

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107

107 NL
127 Wabtec


91107 it getting put onto NL26 tonight, and is booked to work the following on Tuesday 28/06:-

1A09 0630 Bradford to Kings
1D09 1003 Kings to Leeds
1A30 1245 Leeds to Kings
1D21 1603 Kings to Leeds
1A48 1845 Leeds to Kings
1D33 2133 Kings to Leeds
Apparently, LNER are taking back the ex Grand Central mk4 coaches and possibly class 90 locomotives. There is a possibility of reintroducing sets on north of England services, from what a member of staff said the other night when I was travelling.
 

Mack91

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Apparently, LNER are taking back the ex Grand Central mk4 coaches and possibly class 90 locomotives. There is a possibility of reintroducing sets on north of England services, from what a member of staff said the other night when I was travelling.
The ex-Grand Central sets are going to Transport for Wales
 

hexagon789

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Apparently, LNER are taking back the ex Grand Central mk4 coaches and possibly class 90 locomotives. There is a possibility of reintroducing sets on north of England services, from what a member of staff said the other night when I was travelling.
How can they when TfW are taking the ex-GC sets?
 

DanNCL

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If any extra Mark 4 sets came back on lease, it would almost certainly be the few 9 car sets that remain at Worksop, and likely run either with the current pool of 91s (bearing in mind there’s 12 of them for a fleet of only 7 sets), or if they need more locos some of the stored 91s from Belmont. 90s wouldn’t be likely, as driver knowledge on them will have lapsed by now, and the lower top speed would cause timekeeping issues like it did when 90s were used previously.

As nice as it would be to see extra 91s and Mark 4 sets return, especially on the North East route, I’d rather wait for some sort of official confirmation than get my hopes up now, seeing as it’s just speculation at present.
 

43096

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If any extra Mark 4 sets came back on lease, it would almost certainly be the few 9 car sets that remain at Worksop, and likely run either with the current pool of 91s (bearing in mind there’s 12 of them for a fleet of only 7 sets), or if they need more locos some of the stored 91s from Belmont. 90s wouldn’t be likely, as driver knowledge on them will have lapsed by now, and the lower top speed would cause timekeeping issues like it did when 90s were used previously.

As nice as it would be to see extra 91s and Mark 4 sets return, especially on the North East route, I’d rather wait for some sort of official confirmation than get my hopes up now, seeing as it’s just speculation at present.
You’d be struggling to get a single set together of the required vehicle types from the off lease vehicles at Worksop. A huge number have gone for scrap.
 

800001

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Apparently, LNER are taking back the ex Grand Central mk4 coaches and possibly class 90 locomotives. There is a possibility of reintroducing sets on north of England services, from what a member of staff said the other night when I was travelling.
Completely wrong.

There is another set coming, from the stored coaches that lner still lease. Will be hauled by a 91.

DB did send 2 x 90s to Wembley, specutivily, thinking lner may he keen to use them, lner have no intention (at the current time) to use 90s.
 

gimmea50anyday

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90s could only be used on Kings Cross-Leeds/York workings anyway if at all. Their lower top speed partly mitigated by a slight acceleration advantage compared to a 91and the frequent stops on those workings
 

Wyrleybart

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90s could only be used on Kings Cross-Leeds/York workings anyway if at all. Their lower top speed partly mitigated by a slight acceleration advantage compared to a 91and the frequent stops on those workings
I am guessing that any LNER crew north of Leeds will have either lapsed, or need traction refreshers on 91s and Mk4s anyway
 

hexagon789

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If any extra Mark 4 sets came back on lease, it would almost certainly be the few 9 car sets that remain at Worksop, and likely run either with the current pool of 91s (bearing in mind there’s 12 of them for a fleet of only 7 sets), or if they need more locos some of the stored 91s from Belmont. 90s wouldn’t be likely, as driver knowledge on them will have lapsed by now, and the lower top speed would cause timekeeping issues like it did when 90s were used previously.

As nice as it would be to see extra 91s and Mark 4 sets return, especially on the North East route, I’d rather wait for some sort of official confirmation than get my hopes up now, seeing as it’s just speculation at present.
Didn't TfW also obtain a further 30 Mk4s in addition to the GC ones to enable the existing sets to be made up to the same length and provide (10?) spares. So that would reduce available Mk4s to about 50 if I've done my maths correctly. Not many.

I am guessing that any LNER crew north of Leeds will have either lapsed, or need traction refreshers on 91s and Mk4s anyway
Almost certainly, I believe it lapses after 6 months
 

DanNCL

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I am guessing that any LNER crew north of Leeds will have either lapsed, or need traction refreshers on 91s and Mk4s anyway
Existing Mark 4 crews sign as far as Newcastle, so in theory the Sunday Newcastle out and back workings could be Mark 4 worked without any extra training, but refreshers would be required to run to Edinburgh, as Newcastle and Edinburgh based crews haven’t worked them for almost 12 months.


Didn't TfW also obtain a further 30 Mk4s in addition to the GC ones to enable the existing sets to be made up to the same length and provide (10?) spares. So that would reduce available Mk4s to about 50 if I've done my maths correctly. Not many.
Not many but likely enough of the correct types to form at least one full 9 car set. The only vehicles actually required as such are the DVTs and the TSOEs, plus for PRM at least one coach with an accessible toilet, so as a last resort sets could be made up with (say) the catering coach missing.
 

800001

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Existing Mark 4 crews sign as far as Newcastle, so in theory the Sunday Newcastle out and back workings could be Mark 4 worked without any extra training, but refreshers would be required to run to Edinburgh, as Newcastle and Edinburgh based crews haven’t worked them for almost 12 months.



Not many but likely enough of the correct types to form at least one full 9 car set. The only vehicles actually required as such are the DVTs and the TSOEs, plus for PRM at least one coach with an accessible toilet, so as a last resort sets could be made up with (say) the catering coach missing.
Station staff at Northallerton, Darlington, Durham and Newcastle would also all need refreshers on Mk4 as well, as there competency has lapsed.
 

DanNCL

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Station staff at Northallerton, Darlington, Durham and Newcastle would also all need refreshers on Mk4 as well, as there competency has lapsed.
Northallerton is self dispatch. Do they really need specific mark 4 dispatch competency? They didn’t need any extra training when XC converted their HSTs from slam door to sliding door operation, and Carlisle station didn’t need any training for the 80xs when the first diversions with them happened. Why are the Mark 4s different in that regard? Or is it like the thunderbird “issue” where really it’s just being used as an excuse for not bothering, as a 91 is no more likely to require recovery by a loco than any other train operating on the rail network.
 
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