LNER Class 91/Mk4 service status/withdrawals/2021 refurbishment

[DanNCL]

Do you mean ETCS? If so, I didn’t think ETCS was installed/operational on the ECML yet. Does anyone know when it will be installed?

It's not operational on the ECML, but the 80xs are all fitted with it. On the LNER, TPE and Hull Trains 80xs there is no traditional speedometer so ETCS has to be functioning correctly to display the speedometer on the screen, even though the route itself is not ETCS equipped, otherwise the train has to be declared a failure. The GWR units don't have the same issue as they have a seperate speedometer for the Great Western ATP system.

 

[800001]

Do you mean ETCS? If so, I didn’t think ETCS was installed/operational on the ECML yet. Does anyone know when it will be installed?

ETCS is not operational, you are correct. However Azuma has this installed, and certain faults with that system can cause issues with Azuma, usually speedo fault, and not being able to pressurise the doors.
If this happens, depending on the nature of Fault, they can continue using the speedo displayed on the TMS (train management system), but not always.

 

[Wapps]

Got it, thank you.

 

[35B]

Nobody (or at least not me anyway) is suggesting removing mark 4 sets from the Leeds route to run to Newcastle instead. Operationally it is more convenient to use them on the Leeds route, and where they can be used on the Leeds route without causing undue inconvenience for customers then by all means that should be where they are used, but operational convenience and saving money on crew refreshers and an extra thunderbird should not be taking precedent over getting paying customers (many of whom will have paid more than £100 for their ticket) to where they're going in a reasonable timeframe. Most passengers couldn't care less whether it was an Azuma, Mark 4 set or a brick on wheels taking them to their destination as long as it gets them there without unreasonable delay - passengers in the main will not consider "wrong type of train" as a vaild reason for a delay or cancellation.

Out of interest, do LNER have the spare staff for the additional training that would be required to reinstate the Mk4s on the Newcastles?

When the 90s were last on the line a few years ago, my memory is that they did get the odd outing to Newcastle once the crew knowledge had reached a certain level - but it still had to be carefully controlled, and could cause issues.

I also observe that they're on off peak turns, working against the main flow, and on captive diagrams. For a fleet (91s and Mk4s) that aren't known for rock stable reliability, that strikes me as a sound operational model that gets additional trains onto the ECML, but minimises the possibility of delays and disruption.

 

[43096]

I also observe that they're on off peak turns, working against the main flow, and on captive diagrams. For a fleet (91s and Mk4s) that aren't known for rock stable reliability, that strikes me as a sound operational model that gets additional trains onto the ECML, but minimises the possibility of delays and disruption.

I wouldn’t describe the up Skipton or 1703 off London as “off peak” or against the main flow.

The Mark 4s had better availability than the 801/2s which are the like-for-like replacements. They did usually cover the 26 planned diagrams, unlike their replacements which regularly fail to get to 20 available for traffic.

 

[47827]

90s only ran to Newcastle with one of the link of London drivers who were passed out on them, hence no overnights there as Newcastle drivers weren't ever used for those.

 

[YorksLad12]

If you'll accept me an an honest broker, I'm on the 1215 (9-car Azuma) down on the 1st, 1803 (5-car Azuma) back on the 2nd. I'll report back on the busyness (or not).

I'd say the 1215 was about 50-50 today. I was in Coach G which was all red or amber; anyone who reserved a single seat usually had an amber "Might be reserved later" seat next to them. But not everyone turned up; at least four seats near me were reserved but unoccupied.

There isn't an 1145 departure and it is the week before schools return so might not be typical loadings. But certainly lots of people alighting at Kings Cross.

 

[Swimbar]

Realtime Trains - 0Z30 0923 Neville Hill T&R.S.M.D to Polmadie D.H.S.

Realtime Trains is an independent source of live realtime running information for the Great British railway network.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Presumably this is the 91 moving to Scotland to work the 'This Time it's Personal (Day 3)' rail tour to Newcastle on Saturday 4th?

Realtime Trains - 1Z31 1252 Oban to Carlisle

Realtime Trains is an independent source of live realtime running information for the Great British railway network.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Mossend Up Yard to Newcastle?

 

[Fuzzytop]

Realtime Trains - 0Z30 0923 Neville Hill T&R.S.M.D to Polmadie D.H.S.

Realtime Trains is an independent source of live realtime running information for the Great British railway network.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Presumably this is the 91 moving to Scotland to work the 'This Time it's Personal (Day 3)' rail tour to Newcastle on Saturday 4th?

Apparently 91130, which a headcode of 0Z30 might corroborate?

 

[DanNCL]

Realtime Trains - 0Z30 0923 Neville Hill T&R.S.M.D to Polmadie D.H.S.

Realtime Trains is an independent source of live realtime running information for the Great British railway network.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Presumably this is the 91 moving to Scotland to work the 'This Time it's Personal (Day 3)' rail tour to Newcastle on Saturday 4th?

Realtime Trains - 1Z31 1252 Oban to Carlisle

Realtime Trains is an independent source of live realtime running information for the Great British railway network.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Mossend Up Yard to Newcastle?

Apparently 91130, which a headcode of 0Z30 might corroborate?

It is indeed 91130 heading up to Scotland for the GBRF tour.

This path is to take it from Polmadie to Mossend on Saturday afternoon, which will take in the Hamilton loop: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:U63189/2021-09-04/detailed
And this path is to take it from Newcastle to Heaton on Saturday evening: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:U63190/2021-09-04/detailed
I have not been able to find a path to get it back to Neville Hill from Heaton.

 

[_toommm_]

Realtime Trains - 0Z30 0923 Neville Hill T&R.S.M.D to Polmadie D.H.S.

Realtime Trains is an independent source of live realtime running information for the Great British railway network.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Presumably this is the 91 moving to Scotland to work the 'This Time it's Personal (Day 3)' rail tour to Newcastle on Saturday 4th?

Realtime Trains - 1Z31 1252 Oban to Carlisle

Realtime Trains is an independent source of live realtime running information for the Great British railway network.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Mossend Up Yard to Newcastle?

If it’s a lone 91, won’t some of the journey be done from the blunt end then as it reverses at Doncaster? If so that will be quite interesting…

 

[DanNCL]

If it’s a lone 91, won’t some of the journey be done from the blunt end then as it reverses at Doncaster? If so that will be quite interesting…

Indeed it will, although I'm not sure which way round it'll be, I guess that'll depend on which end they want leading for the tour on Saturday. If the tour is planned to run blunt end first on Saturday then the 91 will need to leave Neville Hill no.1 end first, therefore running blunt end first from Doncaster to Polmadie, and no.1 end first from Polmadie to Mossend. If they want the no.1 end leading on the tour then it'll need to leave Neville Hill blunt end first, running with the no.1 cab leading from Doncaster to Polmadie, then the blunt end leading again from Polmadie to Mossend.

The routing for the tour and associated light loco workings will turn the loco, therefore it'll need turning on the turntable at Neville Hill either tomorrow before heading North or once back at Neville Hill after the tour unless they're planning to make use of the High Level Bridge to turn it on the return working from Heaton to Neville Hill (there remains no path on RTT for that).

The 0Z90/0Z91 workings to swap 91s on overhaul at Wabtec also appear to be booked to run on Friday, so assuming they run that would be three different 91s running light loco on the Leeds - Doncaster route within the space of three hours, at least one of which will be blunt end first.

 

[800001]

It is indeed 91130 heading up to Scotland for the GBRF tour.

This path is to take it from Polmadie to Mossend on Saturday afternoon, which will take in the Hamilton loop: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:U63189/2021-09-04/detailed
And this path is to take it from Newcastle to Heaton on Saturday evening: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:U63190/2021-09-04/detailed
I have not been able to find a path to get it back to Neville Hill from Heaton.

Works back to Doncaster Stables platform 2 then enters Wabtec pm Monday for Exam

 

[43094]

The NL - Wabtec move tomorrow won’t run, as that was originally planned to be 91130.

 

[YorksLad12]

Reporting live from the 18.03 with difficulty thanks to the ride quality, and using 4G as I've no idea how to make the onboard wifi work; the 17.48 only ran as 5 cars, not 10 and this one is definitely full. And there seem to be no seat reservations on LNER services at the moment.

So I would say: yes, actually, people are travelling again, with and without masks so they are busy that some might think. To be contrary I'd have pulled the Peterborough stop on this service if it's only going to 5 cars from now on. The more Mk4s we get back into healthly service, the better from where I sit (D19).

 

[800001]

Reporting live from the 18.03 with difficulty thanks to the ride quality, and using 4G as I've no idea how to make the onboard wifi work; the 17.48 only ran as 5 cars, not 10 and this one is definitely full. And there seem to be no seat reservations on LNER services at the moment.

So I would say: yes, actually, people are travelling again, with and without masks so they are busy that some might think. To be contrary I'd have pulled the Peterborough stop on this service if it's only going to 5 cars from now on. The more Mk4s we get back into healthly service, the better from where I sit (D19).

Normally a 10 on 1748, only a 5 today due to shortage of units.
Reservations won't show on a 5 if it should do been a 9/10

 

[Fuzzytop]

Reporting live from the 18.03 with difficulty thanks to the ride quality, and using 4G as I've no idea how to make the onboard wifi work; the 17.48 only ran as 5 cars, not 10 and this one is definitely full. And there seem to be no seat reservations on LNER services at the moment.

So I would say: yes, actually, people are travelling again, with and without masks so they are busy that some might think. To be contrary I'd have pulled the Peterborough stop on this service if it's only going to 5 cars from now on. The more Mk4s we get back into healthly service, the better from where I sit (D19).

The 1803 will need to end up as 10 cars once the Huddersfield services start, if they are still planning to divide it from the Skipton portion in Leeds.

But four consecutive Leeds-bound services - the 1748, 1803, 1833, 1903 - seem to be five cars tonight. The 1933 looks like 91109+NL26 but missing Coach E. At least services are still running, availability of both fleets seems particularly bad at the moment - maybe even getting worse?

 

[800001]

The 1803 will need to end up as 10 cars once the Huddersfield services start, if they are still planning to divide it from the Skipton portion in Leeds.

But four consecutive Leeds-bound services - the 1748, 1803, 1833, 1903 - seem to be five cars tonight. The 1933 looks like 91109+NL26 but missing Coach E. At least services are still running, availability of both fleets seems particularly bad at the moment - maybe even getting worse?

It's been a very poor few days, with lots of 5 car vice 9/10

 

[YorksLad12]

Normally a 10 on 1748, only a 5 today due to shortage of units.
Reservations won't show on a 5 if it should do been a 9/10

The 18.03 is a 5 as it comes off Lincoln (as I discovered in a different thread) and was 'sold' as such when I made the booking. The automated announcement announced we were at Leeds, but that was it so it might have been a different issue. The screens at KX were showing no reservations on the 17.48 and 18.33 but I didn't see a similar message on the 18.03 - only that reservations were recommended.

The 1803 will need to end up as 10 cars once the Huddersfield services start, if they are still planning to divide it from the Skipton portion in Leeds.

But four consecutive Leeds-bound services - the 1748, 1803, 1833, 1903 - seem to be five cars tonight. The 1933 looks like 91109+NL26 but missing Coach E. At least services are still running, availability of both fleets seems particularly bad at the moment - maybe even getting worse?

The 5-car Skipton service still divided at Leeds, according to RTT (poor thing) which was showing the same unit as coaches A to E, then E to A. But yes, it will need to be 2x5 in the near future. If it's still coming off a Lincoln turn, that sounds like having a spare set running ECS to KX and coupling up with the inbound train from Lincoln. Unless they run 10 cars to Lincoln which sounds optimistic!

 

[WesternLancer]

Are the 91s out today (11 sept - sat) as per the planned diagrams as listed on 225 group website does anyone know? Thanks in advance

 

[800001]

Are the 91s out today (11 sept - sat) as per the planned diagrams as listed on 225 group website does anyone know? Thanks in advance

Only 2 sets out, Azuma covering the 1A09 Bradford diagram.

 

[WesternLancer]

Only 2 sets out, Azuma covering the 1A09 Bradford diagram.

Thanks!

Only 2 sets out, Azuma covering the 1A09 Bradford diagram.

Tho 1A09 not listed as a 225 here anyway

https://225group.org.uk/docs/InterCity-225-Services-LNER-from-7th-June-2021.pdf

 

[800001]

Thanks!


Tho 1A09 not listed as a 225 here anyway

https://225group.org.uk/docs/InterCity-225-Services-LNER-from-7th-June-2021.pdf

It's a Saturday mk4 diagram

 

[WesternLancer]

It's a Saturday mk4 diagram

Thx - useful to knwo for future ref

 

[43 302]

Only 2 sets out, Azuma covering the 1A09 Bradford diagram.

Technically three with the late night York move.

 

[dan4291]

Passed a Mk4 set broken down in Welwyn North tunnel on Wednesday. Anyone know what happened to it? Was about 1100 that I passed it. Bad place to break down!

 

[43096]

Passed a Mk4 set broken down in Welwyn North tunnel on Wednesday. Anyone know what happened to it? Was about 1100 that I passed it. Bad place to break down!

Brake fault apparently. It was rescued by the Bounds Green Thunderbird (67006) which worked through to Kings Cross. As the fault meant it couldn’t be driven from 91107 the set then sat in Platform 1 until 1940 waiting for the Doncaster Thunderbird (67028) to take it empty to Neville Hill.

 

[Gordonman]

Technically three with the late night York move.

Or technically four if you include 5Z20/5Z50 NL - PBO and return

 

[43 302]

Or technically four if you include 5Z20/5Z50 NL - PBO and return

Ooh true!

 

[LastTango]

This may have been covered before but does the refurbishment programme for the 91s/Mk4s include any kind of re-paint/vinyl? I commute from Yorkshire to London and really enjoy these trains for the comfort - but all the ones I have seen recently are looking decidedly grubby on the outside which rather tarnishes the image!