LNER compulsory reservations - what happens if you don’t have one?

[Bletchleyite]

OK: "You may purchase this ticket without a reservation and use any available seat you can find". Or something like that.

Yes, or even "There are no reservable seats left on this train which means it is likely to be very busy, meaning you may have to stand for all or part of your journey and groups may not find seats together. We strongly recommend you choose a different service", or something.

 

[Basher]

I think it was the 20.30 from Kings Cross last night, the information board stated no reservations required.

 

[Taunton]

To ensure passengers who have a Flexible ticket or pass can still use that benefit and walk-up to board a train, there will be a number of unreserved seats in Coach C for Standard and a number of seats in Coach E or M in First Class, on all of our trains.

This means that if you don't have a seat reservation you'll still be able to travel in the unreserved part of the train.

This comes over that there is only one coach (presumably packed) which those without reservations are allowed to use. What if you go elsewhere and "fit in" among the reservations. Do the other passengers get aggressive? Does the conductor on ticket checking force you to move to Coach C?

 

[skyhigh]

This comes over that there is only one coach (presumably packed) which those without reservations are allowed to use. What if you go elsewhere and "fit in" among the reservations. Do the other passengers get aggressive? Does the conductor on ticket checking force you to move to Coach C?

The RDG brief I've seen states:

Customers without a seat reservation, or with a counted place-only reservation, will be
directed to the above coaches [C etc] and will only be able to travel in these areas unless they find an
unoccupied seat.

 

[DanNCL]

This comes over that there is only one coach (presumably packed) which those without reservations are allowed to use. What if you go elsewhere and "fit in" among the reservations. Do the other passengers get aggressive? Does the conductor on ticket checking force you to move to Coach C?

In practice it’s no different from any other train with seat reservations - sit an any available seat. Coach C is mentioned only as all seats there on 9 and 10 car sets are unreserved.

On southbound Mark 4 operated services coach B is also usually unreserved, although the previous unreserved coach on Mark 4 sets, coach H, does now have seat reservations.

 

[Ianno87]

This comes over that there is only one coach (presumably packed) which those without reservations are allowed to use. What if you go elsewhere and "fit in" among the reservations. Do the other passengers get aggressive? Does the conductor on ticket checking force you to move to Coach C?

The RDG brief I've seen states:

I would take it that "directed" simply means advised that's where the available seats are likely to be, for the unfamiliar.

But I doubt anybody will get upset if you take an available seat elsewhere (provided you are not sitting in somebody else's reserved seat)

I presume LNER will still continue to offer reservations via their website up to 5 mins before departure too, so you can still reserve a seat last minute once you know what train you are on.

 

[py_megapixel]

I would take it that "directed" simply means advised that's where the available seats are likely to be, for the unfamiliar.

The rest of that sentence suggests that they will be prohibited from travelling outside the unreserved coach

 

[Ianno87]

The rest of that sentence suggests that they will be prohibited from travelling outside the unreserved coach

"...unless they find an unoccupied seat" (I take to mean somewhere else on the train).

This is the usual Railforums storm in a teacup anyway. In multiple LNER journeys over the compulsory reservation period, I've never seen sitting in booked seats actually enforced. It's only a problem if you sit in somebody else's booked seat and they come and claim it.

 

[Watershed]

This is the usual Railforums storm in a teacup anyway.

It's hardly a storm in a teacup for a subsidised public service to wrongly refuse to allow people to buy their service.

There was never a need for compulsory reservations. It was always only about getting the messaging right so that people had realistic expectations. If people are warned when booking "Alert: this service is fully reserved. You may have to stand for part or all of your journey if you take this service." they can hardly complain if they have to (shock horror) stand.

 

[Ianno87]

It's hardly a storm in a teacup for a subsidised public service to wrongly refuse to allow people to buy their service.

How is it "wrongly"? That's just your opinion.

There was never a need for compulsory reservations.

It was an effective way of managing social distancing.

It was always only about getting the messaging right so that people had realistic expectations. If people are warned when booking "Alert: this service is fully reserved. You may have to stand for part or all of your journey if you take this service." they can hardly complain if they have to (shock horror) stand.

Agreed. Although I still think some people will gloss over such a message and still manage to complain.

 

[Watershed]

How is it "wrongly"? That's just your opinion.


It was an effective way of managing social distancing.

No other operator felt the need to have such a policy. Including several other intercity operators who operate identical length of services using identical units.

Now, they weren't the only ones to mark services as "reservation compulsory" in the timetable data, but that is almost the least of it.

 

[Falcon1200]

No other operator felt the need to have such a policy. Including several other intercity operators who operate identical length of services using identical units.

Other Operators did impose a mandatory reservation policy; Passengers joining Avanti WC trains at Glasgow Central were not allowed on without a reservation.

 

[infobleep]

What is technically stopping them for removing the reservation required timetable flag?

 

[35B]

No other operator felt the need to have such a policy. Including several other intercity operators who operate identical length of services using identical units.

Now, they weren't the only ones to mark services as "reservation compulsory" in the timetable data, but that is almost the least of it.

Personally, I prefer the public policy to match what's on the computer - and give credit to LNER for their consistency.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Personally, I prefer the public policy to match what's on the computer - and give credit to LNER for their consistency.

Absolutely. Have CR or don't, but if you do then you need to enforce it as it is grossly unfair otherwise.

 

[Taunton]

Anyway, I'll drive. I read of LNER short forms, cancelled services, etc. Shame.

What the railway seem not to have got at present is that they are going to have to present a pleasant, encouraging, joined-up attitude to patronage from the general public, all within the regulations and commonsense. So much of what has been done over the last year comes across as a "like it or lump it" attitude from the sergeant major to the troops, confusingly worded or completely impractical. Businesses are going to rise and fall in the future because of it, even more than normal. Among my work associates I think I'm the only one to even have considered long distance rail at present. The rest wouldn't touch it with a bargepole currently.

 

[Watershed]

What is technically stopping them for removing the reservation required timetable flag?

The fact that it would be a rather substantial exercise on both their and Network Rail's part. It would either have to be done manually for every one of the 3000-odd passenger schedules they currently have in the Network Rail system, or done in bulk. But the latter could mean overwriting trains that are currently in the process of being worked on. So probably option 1.

It's not quite as easy as it may sound, with the current system for marking reservations as compulsory, available etc.

 

[35B]

Anyway, I'll drive. I read of LNER short forms, cancelled services, etc. Shame.

What the railway seem not to have got at present is that they are going to have to present a pleasant, encouraging, joined-up attitude to patronage from the general public, all within the regulations and commonsense. So much of what has been done over the last year comes across as a "like it or lump it" attitude from the sergeant major to the troops, confusingly worded or completely impractical. Businesses are going to rise and fall in the future because of it, even more than normal. Among my work associates I think I'm the only one to even have considered long distance rail at present. The rest wouldn't touch it with a bargepole currently.

I'm really frustrated with LNER at times over the short forms, but I can't blame them for the position they've been left in by DfT and Hitachi. That's not something they're going to solve immediately, and there will be people like you who choose to drive rather than tolerate them. In my case, the choice is generally between a reasonably straightforward 1 hour journey by train and a significantly longer drive at peak - no contest.

 

[infobleep]

The fact that it would be a rather substantial exercise on both their and Network Rail's part. It would either have to be done manually for every one of the 3000-odd passenger schedules they currently have in the Network Rail system, or done in bulk. But the latter could mean overwriting trains that are currently in the process of being worked on. So probably option 1.

It's not quite as easy as it may sound, with the current system for marking reservations as compulsory, available etc.

In hindsight would it have been better not to add it to the timetable in the first place?

I mean there are other TOCs that didn't have such a thing in their timetables.

 

[43096]

Yes. Even LNER's website agrees with you now:

Make a seat reservation

If you're traveling with LNER make sure you have a seat reservation with your ticket for a comfortable journey. Make one here if your ticket or pass doesn't already have one.

www.lner.co.uk

I agree, though I should point out that this problem is unique to their TVMs (and others with a journey planner). For example, at Kings Cross, the GTR TVMs will presumably quite happily sell you a ticket valid on a service that the LNER ones won't, because they don't care about what specific time you are travelling. Likewise with ScotRail TVMs (not Northern ones though, as they are also Flowbird machines with the journey planner, and also are all completely broken at the moment, but that's for another thread)

Ah, those utterly appalling ticket machines where it takes three times as long to get what you’re after. Yet another reason not to use the railway as it makes things over complicated with the distinct impression that you may be paying more than needed. Worse than LNER though is Northern having them where seat reservations are non existent yet they force you to choose a service. I am finding it brilliantly funny that they’ve been hacked and have had to take the hateful things offline.

 

[Starmill]

The RDG brief I've seen states:

I wasn't directed to Coach C when I stood recently. There were no signs either.

 

[alistairlees]

The fact that it would be a rather substantial exercise on both their and Network Rail's part. It would either have to be done manually for every one of the 3000-odd passenger schedules they currently have in the Network Rail system, or done in bulk. But the latter could mean overwriting trains that are currently in the process of being worked on. So probably option 1.

It's not quite as easy as it may sound, with the current system for marking reservations as compulsory, available etc.

I'd be surprised if there are that many schedules (BS records) in the timetable data. Some schedules will cover many services.

 

[Watershed]

I'd be surprised if there are that many schedules (BS records) in the timetable data. Some schedules will cover many services.

No, it's correct. Along with the LTP trains, of which there are of course far less than 3000, you've got to include every STP variation of a schedule for a given day/week, otherwise trains would mostly be "reservations available" in the data but with outliers that are still "reservations compulsory".

 

[Grumbler]

The fact that it would be a rather substantial exercise on both their and Network Rail's part. It would either have to be done manually for every one of the 3000-odd passenger schedules they currently have in the Network Rail system, or done in bulk. But the latter could mean overwriting trains that are currently in the process of being worked on. So probably option 1.

It's not quite as easy as it may sound, with the current system for marking reservations as compulsory, available etc.

Manually? Don't they just change the schedules database and ripple through the changes to the timetables and reservations systems?

 

[py_megapixel]

Ah, those utterly appalling ticket machines where it takes three times as long to get what you’re after.

Yes, exactly those. "Appalling" is the perfect word for them.

 

[Starmill]

GWR have made the stopping trains between Redhill and Reading "compulsory" for reservation now in the timetable data. It's really lost any meaning now

 

[Watershed]

Manually? Don't they just change the schedules database and ripple through the changes to the timetables and reservations systems?

Yes and that change would have to be done manually unless you wanted to risk overwriting WIP trains.

 

[Grumbler]

Yes and that change would have to be done manually unless you wanted to risk overwriting WIP trains.

Just exclude services that are not confirmed.

 

[Mainline421]

Yes and that change would have to be done manually unless you wanted to risk overwriting WIP trains.

They were able to do this the other way round a year ago in a short space of time (with very minor issues such as mssing out a train from Edinburgh to London at one point) so they can clearly do it now. They're just dragging their feet at this point.

 

[DanNCL]

I wish LNER would stop allocating reservations on services that are booked for class 91+mark 4 sets on an 80x seating plan. The service I’m on is one of the booked class 91 diagrams (not a short term substitution for an 80x) yet the reservations have been done for an 80x and it’s caused no end of confusion amongst most of the normal passengers. The word “quiet” in “quiet coach” has also lost all meaning, it’s more like the talk as loudly as you can coach on this service.