LNWR - Liverpool to Birmingham - Where have all the advance fares gone (edit: price doubled in two years)?

[Grumpy Git]

As title, looking to travel Wednesday or Thursday but only regular fares available?

 

[185143]

I'm wondering that too. WMT advances seem to be a lot dearer than they used to be these days, if they exist at all! They wanted something like £19 when I looked last night just for a single.

I'm in the Midlands today. Came down on the non stop coach from Manchester, £6.80 return which I booked this morning. It was that close to travel I wasn't on the driver's load sheet! Before they started reducing advance availability I could regularly travel from Liverpool to Brum for about £6.90 each way with a railcard. Wouldn't even entertain the coach with the train at those prices. But risk paying full whack and getting a 350/2, or mortgage the house to pay XC's walk ups...? Or take a guaranteed 2+2 seat on the coach, with a similar journey time?

 

[Grumpy Git]

I'm actually travelling from Cressington to Birmingham International, but the cheapest I can get off-peak (with a split at Wolverhampton to XC) is £38.20.

Due to Covid, its a couple of years since I last made this exact same journey, but I just checked my records and it was exactly £19.00 (25th September 2019), so more than a 100% increase!

 

[sonic2009]

Remember pre-covid you also had 2 tph Liverpool-Birmingham, now it's just the 1.

 

[185143]

Remember pre-covid you also had 2 tph Liverpool-Birmingham, now it's just the 1.

Usually 4 car pre Covid though in my experience, all 8s now. So that one won't wash...

 

[sonic2009]

Usually 4 car pre Covid though in my experience, all 8s now. So that one won't wash...

Yes but it's probably put the number of advance tickets released down.

 

[Merseysider]

Yes I’ve noticed that too. With railcard, I used to regularly get £6.25 advances at pretty short notice. Now £12 odd seems to be the minimum at the times I travel.

I tolerated the uncomfortable seats & slow journey time (1h40 is common) due to the cheaper fares, but I don’t see £25 return as value for money.

End result is I make fewer trips from Birmingham to and from Liverpool and go places like Stafford on XC instead.

 

[185143]

Yes but it's probably put the number of advance tickets released down.

I'd agree if it weren't for the fact that Crewe-Euston is the same. No change in capacity there, fortunately! And the change on that route was starting pre Covid anyway, I always used to get £7.25 advances on the first Southbound on a weekday even at short notice. Now I've seen them just offering Anytimes even a week before. Which has resulted in me travelling down to London a lot less.

 

[infobleep]

Yes but it's probably put the number of advance tickets released down.

But was there a need to do that if the same number of seats still exist? Unless it is because they need to increase the money they make for the Department for Transport.

I'd agree if it weren't for the fact that Crewe-Euston is the same. No change in capacity there, fortunately! And the change on that route was starting pre Covid anyway, I always used to get £7.25 advances on the first Southbound on a weekday even at short notice. Now I've seen them just offering Anytimes even a week before. Which has resulted in me travelling down to London a lot less.

So you think they have made less or more money by you travelling down less but at a higher fare?

 

[Grumpy Git]

In the parallel universe that is LNWR pricing, 1st singles are now cheaper than standard singles on some trains:

 

[setdown]

Noticing the same 18 months ago, one could stomach it because there were tangible improvements to the service- 2 trains an hour (now there's only one, and it's the 'worse' one kept for making connections to London) and through trains to London. Those improvements have gone, but the prices are still higher. So I drive instead!

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the parallel universe that is LNWR pricing, 1st singles are now cheaper than standard singles on some trains:

Given that the accommodation in 1st is inferior to Standard, this sounds about right. You can buy one and sit in Standard tbough

Noticing the same 18 months ago, one could stomach it because there were tangible improvements to the service- 2 trains an hour (now there's only one, and it's the 'worse' one kept for making connections to London) and through trains to London. Those improvements have gone, but the prices are still higher. So I drive instead!

Through trains to London are not an "improvement", they utterly destroyed the timetable. They were also substantially slower than changing at Crewe.

In the end the purpose of LNR is not providing cheapo services to London from Liverpool. The London service from Liverpool is provided by Avanti West Coast. By all means use LNR if it suits (or how about splitting at Brum and using Chiltern?), but it needs to be timetabled around local needs, that being its primary purpose.

 

[plugwash]

In the parallel universe that is LNWR pricing, 1st singles are now cheaper than standard singles on some trains:

This is not a new thing or unique to LNWR. Standard and first class advance tickets have separate quotas and advance first class tickets are often cheaper than flexible standard class tickets (particularly for single jouneys). So if people buy the cheapest tickets first you will reach a point where the cheapest remaining tickets are first class. I have certainly seen this on Virgin west coast before (though I suspect it happens less nowadays with Avanti's standard premium offering).

 

[185143]

But was there a need to do that if the same number of seats still exist? Unless it is because they need to increase the money they make for the Department for Transport.


So you think they have made less or more money by you travelling down less but at a higher fare?

Less, for sure. I've used Avanti a few times as they've been cheaper(!) Hell, I've even used Grand Central+Northern!

 

[SickyNicky]

In the parallel universe that is LNWR pricing, 1st singles are now cheaper than standard singles on some trains:

This happens regularly and across the network. It's very normal for FastJP to offer a first class ticket as part of a set of standard class split tickets. So normal that we had to add an explanation clarifying that they could stay in standard if they wish, or move to first for the part covered by the ticket, provided they moved back afterwards.

 

[setdown]

Given that the accommodation in 1st is inferior to Standard, this sounds about right. You can buy one and sit in Standard tbough



Through trains to London are not an "improvement", they utterly destroyed the timetable. They were also substantially slower than changing at Crewe.

In the end the purpose of LNR is not providing cheapo services to London from Liverpool. The London service from Liverpool is provided by Avanti West Coast. By all means use LNR if it suits (or how about splitting at Brum and using Chiltern?), but it needs to be timetabled around local needs, that being its primary purpose.

I'd argue that LM/LNR definitely positioned itself as an operator of services between Liverpool and London, these posters were all over town:

At the end of the day, if the railway has decided they don't want to appeal to that market anymore, and push people to coach and driving, fine. 45 minute interchanges are a deal-breaker, even with cheap fares. It's a shame for me, I like trains (it's why I'm here!), but I'm happy for the railway that they're in the position of turning business away.

(On a slightly different note. If the company wants to timetable around local needs, why stop with splitting services at Birmingham, why not at Crewe too? You'd increase reliability for people travelling north of Crewe, why should someone travelling between Winsford and Hartford get held up because there's congestion at Birmingham? Cancelling short at Crewe still happens, leaving quite a gap in services north of there.)

 

[Grumpy Git]

Through trains to London are not an "improvement", they utterly destroyed the timetable. They were also substantially slower than changing at Crewe.

On an advance, the direct service via New St. was quite a bit less expensive than changing on to the faster service south of Crewe too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd argue that LM/LNR definitely positioned itself as an operator of services between Liverpool and London, these posters were all over town:

I know it did. It was a mind-numbingly stupid idea, chasing extra money from the budget coach market while allowing its bread and butter London commuter services to utterly collapse to the point of near-uselessness.

A plan was in place to first add an extra 20 minute wait at New St and then to re-separate the services over a couple of years. Then along came COVID and it all went away, thank goodness.

At the end of the day, if the railway has decided they don't want to appeal to that market anymore, and push people to coach and driving, fine.

I'm happy that it does that, as minority conquests are not acceptable if they cause the breakdown of the main franchised service.

45 minute interchanges are a deal-breaker, even with cheap fares.

Is this at Crewe onto the Trent Valley semifast? Still quicker than the old through service which took very close to 5 hours end to end.

(On a slightly different note. If the company wants to timetable around local needs, why stop with splitting services at Birmingham, why not at Crewe too? You'd increase reliability for people travelling north of Crewe, why should someone travelling between Winsford and Hartford get held up because there's congestion at Birmingham? Cancelling short at Crewe still happens, leaving quite a gap in services north of there.)

It wasn't "timetabling around local needs", it was "causing the local service not to completely collapse on a daily basis". It was awful, the worst service we have had on the south WCML in my memory outside of strike periods.

The reason not to split at Crewe despite those issues is that LNR provide the primary Liverpool to Birmingham service. Avanti West Coast provide the primary Liverpool to London service, not LNR. As such, breaking the Northampton-London service just so someone can take 5 hours from Liverpool to London for £10 is simply not the right thing to do. Budget passengers can accept changing trains and having to pop for a coffee between them in return for a cheaper price (and Advances aside the walk-ups are still very cheap).

If it had worked I wouldn't mind, and with the 20 minute "step back" at New St it may well have done, but it simply didn't.

 

[185143]

I know it did. It was a mind-numbingly stupid idea, chasing extra money from the budget coach market while allowing its bread and butter London commuter services to utterly collapse to the point of near-uselessness.

A plan was in place to first add an extra 20 minute wait at New St and then to re-separate the services over a couple of years. Then along came COVID and it all went away, thank goodness.



I'm happy that it does that, as minority conquests are not acceptable if they cause the breakdown of the main franchised service.



Is this at Crewe onto the Trent Valley semifast? Still quicker than the old through service which took very close to 5 hours end to end.



It wasn't "timetabling around local needs", it was "causing the local service not to completely collapse on a daily basis". It was awful, the worst service we have had on the south WCML in my memory outside of strike periods.

The reason not to split at Crewe despite those issues is that LNR provide the primary Liverpool to Birmingham service. Avanti West Coast provide the primary Liverpool to London service, not LNR. As such, breaking the Northampton-London service just so someone can take 5 hours from Liverpool to London for £10 is simply not the right thing to do. Budget passengers can accept changing trains and having to pop for a coffee between them in return for a cheaper price (and Advances aside the walk-ups are still very cheap).

If it had worked I wouldn't mind, and with the 20 minute "step back" at New St it may well have done, but it simply didn't.

I used it twice. I think one journey was 4hrs 55mins and another was 4hrs 40mins.

The first one was after a night shift and I got a 350/1. Had a couple of beers and then an excellent sleep from Wolverhampton to Euston, set me up well for the afternoon and evening!

The second was a 350/2. I wasn't in a rush to repeat the experience!

 

[OhNoAPacer]

I have to agree with Bletchleyite on this, the prime purpose of the service should have been ensured before any chasing of the Liverpool to London traffic.

My partners son commutes from Leighton Buzzard to Euston, or at least was doing so prior to the pandemic. His experiences of last minute cancellations caused a lot of stress. I say last minute, on some occasions it was later than that, the train had left Euston when they announced that it was not going to stop at Leighton Buzzard, cue an unexpected and unwanted visit to Milton Keynes.

 

[Merseysider]

I know it did. It was a mind-numbingly stupid idea, chasing extra money from the budget coach market while allowing its bread and butter London commuter services to utterly collapse to the point of near-uselessness.

I agree. It was embarrassing how bad the service was. I remember that it was not uncommon at all to see 3 services in a row cancelled from Liverpool, with them turning back at the incredibly picturesque dump that is Crewe.

There were times when (with half-hourly service) you could go 2 or 3 hours without a train from Liverpool to Birmingham.

I hope to God those long 4/5 hour snake-like services never return, even if they are the price of a pint.

In fairness I’d take reliability and higher fares over an unusable service that is cheap.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In fairness I’d take reliability and higher fares over an unusable service that is cheap.

And those wanting cheap can accept the change of trains in return for the low fare. Go via Brum rather than Crewe and you could get food or wander round the shops between trains if the connection is a bit long.

 

[Ianno87]

And those wanting cheap can accept the change of trains in return for the low fare. Go via Brum rather than Crewe and you could get food or wander round the shops between trains if the connection is a bit long.

The "trick" is that making it direct (even if slow) makes journey planners pick it up, and thus bring out the cheap fare when searching for a Liverpool-London journey. If not, it's hidden away, and you have to know the tricks in a journey planner to show it.

 

[Grumpy Git]

And those wanting cheap can accept the change of trains in return for the low fare. Go via Brum rather than Crewe and you could get food or wander round the shops between trains if the connection is a bit long.

True enough, any wait over 20 minutes at Crewe is torture, it really is a desolate dump.

 

[infobleep]

True enough, any wait over 20 minutes at Crewe is torture, it really is a desolate dump.

I changes trains at Crewe recently. I didn't find it that unbearable. I wasn't waiting 20 minutes though. I use to do that length if wait regularly at Clapham Junction and took to making short metro journeys to and from near by stations to kill time.

Possible in Lonson but perhaps not so in Crewe

 

[Starmill]

In the parallel universe that is LNWR pricing, 1st singles are now cheaper than standard singles on some trains:

View attachment 103186

That's always been common on WMT services to be honest, where Standard sells more quickly.

I'm actually travelling from Cressington to Birmingham International, but the cheapest I can get off-peak (with a split at Wolverhampton to XC) is £38.20.

Due to Covid, its a couple of years since I last made this exact same journey, but I just checked my records and it was exactly £19.00 (25th September 2019), so more than a 100% increase!

The availability of the cheap tickets is now very low. Some trains have just thirty advance tickets available.

 

[gray1404]

I too have noticed the lack of cheap tier LNR advances from Liverpool to South WCML destinations (Milton Keynes, Euston and Hemel Hempstead) since the service went hourly from Liverpool. This includes when I force a journey planner to send me via Birmingham rather then changing at Crewe. I think this is due to a combination of the Liverpool service no longer being 2 trains per hour and also (when I enter Birmingham as a via point) still less LNR services to Euston then before.

The only true workable solution for a through Liverpool to Euston service by LNR would be for them to extend the current Trent Valley service to Liverpool that currently runs between Crewe and Euston. Ideally it would be a simple extension of the current service rather then trains splitting at Crewe - as experience suggests this just adds to the likelihood of service disruption.