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London Buses Discussion

Goldfish62

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example 2 : TFL London service permit, a fortnightly update is still showing a version from 7 weeks ago
That's because it's seriously under-resourced. There's currently only one person doing the job.

But then many of TfL's own decisions have directly led to slower bus journey times, whether cycle lanes, or removing gyratories and one way systems. Virtually all their road schemes are designed to improve things for pedestrians and cyclists, which is great but comes at the expense of vehicles, including buses
Yes, that's a weakness of having such a broad remit, plus being under constant political pressure from whoever the Mayor is at the time.

TfL is a highly disfunctional organisation and does not work in a joined-up manner. If you didn't know otherwise you'd think Buses and Cycling were two completely different organisations. Certainly Cycling is higher in the transport hierarchy so it's usually Buses that loses out.

Regarding removal of gyratories, the majority of these have been done by the boroughs and it's been up to TfL to make the bus network fit whatever new road layout they're presented with.
 
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STEVIEBOY1

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Does any know where I can find Spider maps of Vauxhall and Stockwell? I can not seem to locate either of these on the TFL Website.
 
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Snow1964

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That's because it's seriously under-resourced. There's currently only one person doing the job.

Not really a good excuse though, for most organisations informing your existing customers and potential customers of upcoming changes is deemed essential.

But it is a reflection on how how dysfunctional TfL is, that basic bus publicity updates aren’t deemed important and are not resourced. It’s a shame TfL don’t have a publicity or media team that could help out for few hours, so upcoming bus changes (and last few missing fortnightly LSPs) get added to their website.
 

johncrossley

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London has long been poor for publicity, even in the Ken Livingstone era they got rid of printed timetables. However, publicity is not such a serious issue in London because in the vast majority of cases buses run frequently enough that you don't need a timetable. Timetables are just a guide in London as the bus operators are supposed to keep gaps between buses as short as possible, rather than stick to a timetable, except for low frequency services. Anyone actually bothered enough to research their trip will use a journey planner or an app, and enthusiasts are well catered for by www.londonbusroutes.net and www.busmap.co.uk.
 

Goldfish62

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Not really a good excuse though, for most organisations informing your existing customers and potential customers of upcoming changes is deemed essential.

But it is a reflection on how how dysfunctional TfL is, that basic bus publicity updates aren’t deemed important and are not resourced. It’s a shame TfL don’t have a publicity or media team that could help out for few hours, so upcoming bus changes (and last few missing fortnightly LSPs) get added to their website.
The LSP bulletin is not publicity. It's a consultation tool along the lines of Notices and Proceedings. It's produced for the benefit of statutory consultees and is nothing to do with informing customers of upcoming changes. That's the responsibility of the operators of the services.
 

johncrossley

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Are you able to provide any evidence for that statement


MARCH 23 2006 – TRANSPORT FOR LONDON WITHDRAWS LOCAL GUIDES I have never thought London did a good job with publicity when compared with some of the best of the PTEs, yet it always seems to con people into believing it has a good excuse because it’s so large! It stopped issuing proper timetables some time ago but in 2004 said it was to have a series of 28 area guides, which I showed, on this site, adding the date as each was produced. They got as far as publishing 27 of the 28 – but spread over two years, hardly a good record for an organisation with huge resources and a vast budget – but have now announced the series is to cease, giving as an excuse their own lack of bothering to reprint them sufficiently frequently so as to allow them to be reasonably up-to-date.
 

jay38a

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London has long been poor for publicity, even in the Ken Livingstone era they got rid of printed timetables. However, publicity is not such a serious issue in London because in the vast majority of cases buses run frequently enough that you don't need a timetable. Timetables are just a guide in London as the bus operators are supposed to keep gaps between buses as short as possible, rather than stick to a timetable, except for low frequency services. Anyone actually bothered enough to research their trip will use a journey planner or an app, and enthusiasts are well catered for by www.londonbusroutes.net and www.busmap.co.uk.
Some printed timetables are still produced on a very very small scale, for very low frequency routes. There was one printed in 2013 for the R5/R10 then a few years later for the 549.

These were only delivered or found locally around the route.
 

Goldfish62

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Anyone actually bothered enough to research their trip will use a journey planner or an app, and enthusiasts are well catered for by www.londonbusroutes.net and www.busmap.co.uk.
An even better timetable resource for enthusiasts is the TFL website itself, where current schedules can be downloaded:


Bus schedules​

Bus schedules are in PDF format and are on average about 50-100kb in size. Search for a bus route number to find schedules for that route.
 

Snow1964

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Does any know where I can find Spider maps of Vauxhall and Stockwell? I can not seem to locate either of these on the TFL Website.

All the spider maps are supposed to be on this link (but I haven’t checked for missing ones, out of date ones etc)

 

Goldfish62

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Does any know where I can find Spider maps of Vauxhall and Stockwell? I can not seem to locate either of these on the TFL Website.
They're not on there.

If you type "Vauxhall" or "Stockwell" in the search field it'll come up with a geographic map displaying all the stops in the area with route numbers. Click on each stop and it gives you live departures.

Sort of more helpful but less helpful than a spider map at the same time.
 

Andyh82

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An even better timetable resource for enthusiasts is the TFL website itself, where current schedules can be downloaded:

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a bus schedule displayed in that odd format. Even something from an OmniTimes back end system will still display the timetable in the usual familiar way.
 
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markymark2000

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example 2 : TFL London service permit, a fortnightly update is still showing a version from 7 weeks ago

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/lsp-bulletin.pdf
That is because TFL don't want to move into the modern world and just create an online database and instead want to keep publishing bulletins.

If you email in, you can ask to be put onto their mailing list and when the new bulletin is out, it gets automatically sent out to you.
 

Statto

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I don’t think I’ve ever seen a bus schedule displayed in that odd format. Even something from an OmniTimes back end system will still display the timetable in the usual familiar way.

It's the working timetable, type of timetable that would be issued to drivers, quite useful in a way see when the bus makes the return journey, X68 timetable is fun to read, only the first couple of buses make it back to operate the last couple.
 

Goldfish62

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I don’t think I’ve ever seen a bus schedule displayed in that odd format. Even something from an OmniTimes back end system will still display the timetable in the usual familiar way.
That's always been the way schedules have been presented, way back to LT days.

That is because TFL don't want to move into the modern world and just create an online database and instead want to keep publishing bulletins.
Complete and utter nonsense, to be frank.
 

markymark2000

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Complete and utter nonsense, to be frank.
Explain then, what is the point in having a bulletin which needs manually editing each fortnight rather than having a normal database and having an automatic email notification thing each fortnight with the relevant updates? There is no need for the bulletin to be as it is today. I'd certainly welcome information on the benefits of the bulletin rather than a database or something like that on the permit page (For the record, I say database because that is what it is. There are programmes out there which you could use or even a HTML table with all the permits on. I am not implying that they should upload a Microsoft Access Database file to the website).
 

Goldfish62

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Explain then, what is the point in having a bulletin which needs manually editing each fortnight rather than having a normal database and having an automatic email notification thing each fortnight with the relevant updates? There is no need for the bulletin to be as it is today. I'd certainly welcome information on the benefits of the bulletin rather than a database or something like that on the permit page (For the record, I say database because that is what it is. There are programmes out there which you could use or even a HTML table with all the permits on. I am not implying that they should upload a Microsoft Access Database file to the website).
You're right that there's no need for the bulletin as it is - in fact there's no need for the bulletin at all. Statutory consultees can be just as easily contacted direct.

But if you knew what the job involved you'd realise that the bulletin is just one small part and it's simply not worth the time or effort to enhance it any further, not that it needs any enhancement. It already had a major change of format several years ago, linking to TfL's consultation tool. There's no need for further development.
 

Jamdougnut

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Just a random piece of news- RATPs mostly refurbished Citaro Ks (MCMs) for the 117 have been seen out and about on route training around Staines and Hounslow. They will take over the route from September 4th, much to the joy of locals like me!:D
 

STEVIEBOY1

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They're not on there.

If you type "Vauxhall" or "Stockwell" in the search field it'll come up with a geographic map displaying all the stops in the area with route numbers. Click on each stop and it gives you live departures.

Sort of more helpful but less helpful than a spider map at the same time.
Ok, thank you.
 

Snow1964

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You're right that there's no need for the bulletin as it is - in fact there's no need for the bulletin at all. Statutory consultees can be just as easily contacted direct.

But if you knew what the job involved you'd realise that the bulletin is just one small part and it's simply not worth the time or effort to enhance it any further, not that it needs any enhancement. It already had a major change of format several years ago, linking to TfL's consultation tool. There's no need for further development.

I was under the impression (perhaps wrongly) that there was a statutory requirement as part of TfL being permitted to be its own traffic commissioner. It therefore has to publish the same information as other traffic commissioners around the country.
If I have got this wrong then I apologise.

And it’s not linked to the current consultation tool, TfL moved to a new consultation website few months ago, and the consultation link takes you to the old disused one which TfL website is no longer being updated. Pretending to consult by linking an obsolete website which doesn’t show anything for it in its index, is hardly informing any consultees. You can’t email it unless you can guarantee that you are using a current valid and active email address for every statutory consultee, so no emails to an individual who might no longer be at an organisation.
 

Deerfold

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I don’t think I’ve ever seen a bus schedule displayed in that odd format. Even something from an OmniTimes back end system will still display the timetable in the usual familiar way.
It's certainly not the most customer friendly timetable I've ever seen.

I notice they give 3 different references to each stop with a timetabled time, but if you wanted to cross-check with the live times text service you'd need a fourth code, not given there.
 

TRAX

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It's certainly not the most customer friendly timetable I've ever seen.

I notice they give 3 different references to each stop with a timetabled time, but if you wanted to cross-check with the live times text service you'd need a fourth code, not given there.
Because it’s not a customer timetable. As said earlier, it’s an internal working timetable.
 

Deerfold

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Because it’s not a customer timetable. As said earlier, it’s an internal working timetable.
Quite - but some of the public would like a proper timetable.

I certainly find maps a massive help - usually because you can see alternative routes that might go close to your destination but not quite there and you can work out if it's worth catching a bus sooner that doesn't go all the way. Journey planners rarely offer these.
 

Statto

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Those working timetables for the night bus timetables can be really confusing, as they don't go from 23.xx, 00.xx, 01.xx & to 06.xx or 07.xx, they go 23.xx, 24.xx, & 25.xx & to 29.xx some finish at 30.xx.
 

TitanMike

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Those working timetables for the night bus timetables can be really confusing, as they don't go from 23.xx, 00.xx, 01.xx & to 06.xx or 07.xx, they go 23.xx, 24.xx, & 25.xx & to 29.xx some finish at 30.xx.
TFL use a 36 hour clock so for example 0400 is 2800.
 

Deerfold

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TFL use a 36 hour clock so for example 0400 is 2800.
When I used to do analysis comparing predicted times on Countdown signs to actual arrival times and timetabled times, I don't remember coming across anything that reached 3100. As only night routes are going to go far beyond midnight (lots of day routes get to about 2500), I can't see any getting near 3559.
 

Statto

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When I used to do analysis comparing predicted times on Countdown signs to actual arrival times and timetabled times, I don't remember coming across anything that reached 3100. As only night routes are going to go far beyond midnight (lots of day routes get to about 2500), I can't see any getting near 3559.

Yep, all the night routes finish by 7am, so it's only running dead to depot, last N5 arrives back at the depot 31.08 on a Sunday morning

I have a night bus timetable booklet from 1994, when quite a few night routes finished well after 7am, & a few night routes used to start before 11pm.
 

Snow1964

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TfL website bus changes page includes some changes to stopping patterns at Victoria on 16th August and big changes at Aldwych from 21st August (when a one way section becomes 2way)


Stop changes at Victoria - 16 August 2021​

Routes Affected: 185 and C10

From memory temporary changes have been at Victoria ever since they started enlarging the District line station with extra connections to Victoria line, I forget when it started, but feels like decade ago

Aldwych changes - 21 August 2021​

Routes Affected: 1, 6, 9, 11, 15, 26, 59, 68, 76, 87, 91, 168, 172, 188, 243, 341, 521, N1, N9, N11, N15, N21, N44, N68, N87, N89, N91, N155, N171, N199, N343, N550, N551 and X68.

This is part of the Westminster Council public realm works which just seem to reduce road space for buses, so they get even slower

 

Deerfold

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Yep, all the night routes finish by 7am, so it's only running dead to depot, last N5 arrives back at the depot 31.08 on a Sunday morning

I have a night bus timetable booklet from 1994, when quite a few night routes finished well after 7am, & a few night routes used to start before 11pm.
I remember back in the late nineties when day (and weekend) travelcards weren't valid on nightbuses, letting an N15 go past and catching the 15 a few minutes behind it.
 

Andyh82

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Regarding Aldwych, there are usually loads of buses laying over on the offside for buses that terminate there. If this is now a 2 way road with bus stops on that side, where will they now layover?
 

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