London Liverpool Street to Watford Junction

[StephenHunter]

Here are up morning timetables from 1956 and 1964: there were occasional trains from further than Watford to Broad Street and a regular service from Watford in both timetables.

What would likely operate those?

 

[Bevan Price]

They didn't run very many towards the end.

1992 timetable says

0752 Watford Junction to Liverpool Street 0902
0906 Liverpool Street to Richmond 0958

1646 Richmond to Liverpool Street 1737
1752 Liverpool Street to Watford Junction 1901

Richmond services were all stations between Dalston Kingsland and Richmond. Watford services called at all stations via and including Primrose Hill. No stops observed on the West Anglia bit.

1989 timetable had

0637 WFJ-LST 0744
0713 WFJ-LST 0818
0729 WFJ-SRA 0835
0749 WFJ-LST 0854
0845 WIJ-LST 0924
1558 WFJ-SRA 1701
1638 WFJ-LST 1738
1711 WFJ-LST 1814

0753 LST-WIJ 0833
0826 LST-WFJ 0930
0847 SRA-WFJ 0955
0901 LST-WFJ 1008
1650 LST-HRW 1741
1713 SRA-WFJ 1819
1749 LST-WFJ 1852
1820 LST-WFJ 1928
1835 LST-WFJ 1940

LST - Liverpool Street, WFJ - Watford Junction, SRA - Stratford, WIJ - Willesden Junction, HRW - Harrow & Wealdstone

Primrose Hill shut when the service finished. Clearly it wasn't good use of capacity at Liverpool Street or the 313 units.

And towards the end, it became prone to cancellation.

 

[30907]

What would likely operate those?

Watfords were 501s by then, the longer distance trains remained loco hauled, but I believe diesel not steam at the end.
(OT, but the transformation of the service beyond Watford since electrification is amazing.)

 

[Taunton]

What would likely operate those?

There were once a couple of trains each peak hour from Bletchley to Broad Street until given up with electrification. In steam days a Black 5, or even a 2-6-4 tank, later a Class 24 diesel, with LMS-era non-corridor stock. They turned up in rail magazine photographs more than most, as a prominent rail photographer of the era lived at Hatch End.

 

[jfollows]

Attached from 9/9/63 to 14/6/64 WTT showing 2A89 07:48 Tring to Broad Street D240 (so diesel, not steam, as per the previous post). Other services such as 2A06 07:14 Bletchley-Euston. In this timetable also 2A89 08:40 Tring-Broad Street. Down departures 17:21 & 18:05 from Broad Street to Tring.
See second attachment in post #27 for public times and station names.
EDIT See second attachment here for station names overlaid also.

 

[Ken H]

We're there not trains from the king's cross suburban lines to broad Street before kings cross suburban electrification?

 

[Railwaysceptic]

We're there not trains from the king's cross suburban lines to broad Street before kings cross suburban electrification?

Monday to Friday rush hour only. In the late '60s I travelled to work and back between Palmers Green and Broad Street. In those days Broad Street to Dalston Junction plus the curve to the North London Line was a four track formation and Canonbury Tunnel was two track.

 

[Magdalia]

Monday to Friday rush hour only. In the late '60s I travelled to work and back between Palmers Green and Broad Street. In those days Broad Street to Dalston Junction plus the curve to the North London Line was a four track formation and Canonbury Tunnel was two track.

Two trains also ran on Saturday mornings, returning at lunchtime.

 

[GS250]

There were once a couple of trains each peak hour from Bletchley to Broad Street until given up with electrification. In steam days a Black 5, or even a 2-6-4 tank, later a Class 24 diesel, with LMS-era non-corridor stock. They turned up in rail magazine photographs more than most, as a prominent rail photographer of the era lived at Hatch End.

Have to say the timings weren't bad considering the relative lack of power available.

Can imagine the arrival of the 310s gave the down services especially (uphill to Tring) a bit of a shot in the arm. Don't think present 350/319 diagrams are that much quicker?

 

[jfollows]

Have to say the timings weren't bad considering the relative lack of power available.

Can imagine the arrival of the 310s gave the down services especially (uphill to Tring) a bit of a shot in the arm. Don't think present 350/319 diagrams are that much quicker?

We've diverged a bit from the original topic, but so what?

1966: xx.05 Euston to Watford 20 min, Hemel 30 min, Leighton Buzzard 48 min, Bletchley 55 min.
xx.35 to Harrow 14 min, Watford 22 min, all stations to Tring 46 min, all to Bletchley 64 min
Today: xx.24 to Watford 15 min, Hemel 23 min, Berkhamsted, Tring, Leighton Buzzard 42 min, Bletchley 49 min
7 minutes quicker to Hemel Hempstead now; 1 minute slower thence to Bletchley but with 2 more stops.

But the AM10s were limited to 75mph as were the slow lines which they used. They didn't have sparkling acceleration either; I noticed the difference in south Manchester because we had a couple of booked workings and the AM4s accelerated much more quickly.

 

[SouthDevonian]

Network SouthEast ran services from London Liverpool Street to Watford Junction via the Graham Road Curve, North London Line, Primrose Hill and Watford DC Line from 1986 to 1992. What stations did it serve, what were the journey times from each station and the total journey time?

I took the evening service in May 1991 from Liverpool St as far as Willesden Jn LL. It left from platform 7 and took the slow line to London Fields then the route as you describe. First stop was Dalston then all stations but I don't have the times.

 

[Revaulx]

We've diverged a bit from the original topic, but so what?

1966: xx.05 Euston to Watford 20 min, Hemel 30 min, Leighton Buzzard 48 min, Bletchley 55 min.
xx.35 to Harrow 14 min, Watford 22 min, all stations to Tring 46 min, all to Bletchley 64 min
Today: xx.24 to Watford 15 min, Hemel 23 min, Berkhamsted, Tring, Leighton Buzzard 42 min, Bletchley 49 min
7 minutes quicker to Hemel Hempstead now; 1 minute slower thence to Bletchley but with 2 more stops.

But the AM10s were limited to 75mph as were the slow lines which they used. They didn't have sparkling acceleration either; I noticed the difference in south Manchester because we had a couple of booked workings and the AM4s accelerated much more quickly.

Yeah the AM10s had cool wrap-around cab windows but were otherwise pretty rubbish.

The acceleration of the AM4s was worse than the DC electrics they replaced on the Alty line

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Two trains also ran on Saturday mornings, returning at lunchtime.

Ah, thank you. I didn't know that. (I didn't work on Saturdays!)

 

[GS250]

Yeah the AM10s had cool wrap-around cab windows but were otherwise pretty rubbish.

The acceleration of the AM4s was worse than the DC electrics they replaced on the Alty line

I liked travelling on them. They were smooth, comfy and relaxing. The First Class area was particularly cosy. However you could say that about virtually any other outer suburban EMU at the time.

Even the 501s were perfectly fine for inner suburban duties. Only ever travelled on one from Broad Street to Harrow and Wealdstone the once although the journey did seem to drag on somewhat.

 

[jfollows]

The AM10 units were an order of magnitude nicer than the AM4 units (they were a technology step change so it's not surprising), and their presence on stopping services between Manchester and Macclesfield in the 1970s was a mixed blessing: it was nicer to travel on them but they served as a reminder of how much better the base service out of London was - we had them as a "treat" whereas Londoners had them all the time. They had diagrammed runs to Manchester, usually escaping from Birmingham and returning later, so that in any timetable period their presence on particular services could be guaranteed: the 16:10 and 17:30 Manchester-Macclesfield was one such unit, which worked back Macclesfield-Manchester inbetween these workings. They also worked in place of loco-hauled services between Manchester and Birmingham on summer Saturdays and just about managed to keep close to time which was probably more a reflection on lax schedules than on their performance.

 

[Taunton]

I took the evening service in May 1991 from Liverpool St as far as Willesden Jn LL. It left from platform 7 and took the slow line to London Fields then the route as you describe.

I happened to be working in The City when the Liverpool Street diversion started, and went over early the first morning just to see the initial arrival, viewed from tho onetime high level footbridge over the barrier line. Came into Platform 1. No ceremony of any sort, not even a lone BR photographer. And just a handful of passengers, mainly city-suited (not just high rollers came like that in those days, almost everyone did). Lone 3-car 313 unit, among all the 9-car and 12-car GE trains alongside.

 

[Revaulx]

I liked travelling on them. They were smooth, comfy and relaxing. The First Class area was particularly cosy. However you could say that about virtually any other outer suburban EMU at the time.

Even the 501s were perfectly fine for inner suburban duties. Only ever travelled on one from Broad Street to Harrow and Wealdstone the once although the journey did seem to drag on somewhat.

The AM10 ride was certainly better than the AM4! Though the latter offered compensation by way of the bouncy seats.

I had a morning exploring the Broad Street lines in the early 80s, when it was obvious that Broad Street wasn’t going to last much longer. The 501s, while obviously of Southern ancestry, seemed a lot dowdier and more rickety than their brethren south of the river. The barred windows clearly didn’t help.

 

[GS250]

The AM10 ride was certainly better than the AM4! Though the latter offered compensation by way of the bouncy seats.

I had a morning exploring the Broad Street lines in the early 80s, when it was obvious that Broad Street wasn’t going to last much longer. The 501s, while obviously of Southern ancestry, seemed a lot dowdier and more rickety than their brethren south of the river. The barred windows clearly didn’t help.

Yes the barred windows were pretty horrible. Weren't they implemented due to the limited clearance in some of the tunnels on the NLL? Did any of the Southern Units have barred tunnels out of interest? I seem to recall 2 car Southern units being used on the NLL for a brief period although wasn't for long.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

Yes the barred windows were pretty horrible. Weren't they implemented due to the limited clearance in some of the tunnels on the NLL? Did any of the Southern Units have barred tunnels out of interest? I seem to recall 2 car Southern units being used on the NLL for a brief period although wasn't for long.

Hampstead Heath tunnel on the North London Line. Subsequently 416s and 423s got them, I think for Oxted tunnel which is apparently the tightest on the local network and the cause of 319s and other Mk 3 derived EMUs never making it south of Sanderstead.

 

[StephenHunter]

Hampstead Heath tunnel on the North London Line. Subsequently 416s and 423s got them, I think for Oxted tunnel which is apparently the tightest on the local network and the cause of 319s and other Mk 3 derived EMUs never making it south of Sanderstead.

The NSE Society's 4CIG has barred windows too.

 

[JonathanH]

The NSE Society's 4CIG has barred windows too.

As did all Southern CIGs (and VEPs) that made it to the end of operations, but the introduction of window bars was much later.

 

[GS250]

Wasn't Broad Street once a terminus for a Tilbury boat train too? Can imagine it would have turned 'right' onto the NLN, crossed over South of Stratford and then made its way onto the line to Tilbury via Barking?

Wonder if any genuine long distance services started from there?

 

[30907]

Wasn't Broad Street once a terminus for a Tilbury boat train too? Can imagine it would have turned 'right' onto the NLN, crossed over South of Stratford and then made its way onto the line to Tilbury via Barking?

Wonder if any genuine long distance services started from there?

I'm sure I've read that the LNWR ran Broad St to Birmingham at one time (1910?), but can't find confirmation.
Tilbury seems less likely - pre-grouping it would have involved LNWR, GER and LTSR while competing with the more straightforward route from St Pancras (MR/LTSR).

 

[jfollows]

I'm sure I've read that the LNWR ran Broad St to Birmingham at one time (1910?), but can't find confirmation.
Tilbury seems less likely - pre-grouping it would have involved LNWR, GER and LTSR while competing with the more straightforward route from St Pancras (MR/LTSR).

For the Birmingham services: wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broad_Street_railway_station_(England))

Broad Street was an immediate success and caused NLR traffic to double in a short space of time. A fourth approach line was added in 1874, a further (eighth) platform in 1891,[8] and a final (ninth) platform in 1913.[9] At its peak at the turn of the 20th century, Broad Street was the third-busiest station in London (after Liverpool Street and Victoria).[3] At this time, more than one train per minute arrived or departed Broad Street during rush hour, with over 27 million passengers in 1902. The Great Northern Railway also used Broad Street as a supplement to its King's Cross terminal to the west.[9] On 1 February 1910, the LNWR introduced a "City to City" service from Broad Street to Coventry, Birmingham New Street and Wolverhampton. The service only lasted for a few years, before being withdrawn on 22 February 1915 as a result of World War I.[10]Nevertheless, the majority of Broad Street's traffic was local suburban services.[9]

Carriages of LNWR

Coaches for the “City-to-City” express, which ran between Wolverhampton, Birmingham and London Broad Street. It was the LNWR’s response to the Great Western opening the Aynho cut-off, and the prospect of two-hour expresses between Birmingham and Paddington. The up train left Wolverhampton at 7.50, Birmingham at 8.20 and arrived at Broad Street at 10.35; the down train left Broad Street at 17.25, arriving Birmingham 19.40 and Wolverhampton 20.05. A typewriting compartment was provided, as were breakfast/meal facilities in the splendid 12-wheel diner. The up train was marshalled brake third / composite / composite diner / brake composite (with typewriting compartment)

For Tilbury and Southend: http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/broad_street/

On the 18th May 1869 an eastwards spur was added at Bow onto the London Tilbury and Southern Railway allowing through running between Broad Street and Southend. After protracted negotiations the North London finally reached agreement with the London & Blackwall in 1870 for an eastern spur at Poplar allowing trains to reach Blackwall where passengers could catch the steamer services to Margate from Blackwall Pier. By this time however, the steamers were in decline and the train service was withdrawn in 1890 and the connection at Poplar was severed.

 

[Ken H]

Page from May 1978 timetable showing 3 an hour Watford - Broad St and 3 an hour Watford - Euston. No indication there were any through trains to Broad St from anywhere. But I think jfollows post above (#54) is talking about an earlier time.

 

[delt1c]

Interestingly , I got on a mid day service from Hertford East to Liverpool St in mid 90’s and was surprised that it was a 313 and not a 315. Wish now I had takes a photo but this was before mobiles had cameras

 

[StephenHunter]

314s worked out of LST?

 

[delt1c]

314s worked out of LST?

Sorry meant 315 typo

 

[leytongabriel]

Page from May 1978 timetable showing 3 an hour Watford - Broad St and 3 an hour Watford - Euston. No indication there were any through trains to Broad St from anywhere. But I think jfollows post above (#54) is talking about an earlier time.

Isn't 3 an hour Richmond - Broad St ( + 3 an hour Watford -Euston ) which is what I remember from that time. Sunday afternoons went up to 4 an hour in summer with all the trippers to Kew Gdns when it was still a token coin to get in. BR London Midland region ran an advertising campaign with poster 'Our North Circular - Use It or Lose It' at that this time and there were some 25p explorer special days which were popular with the public but less so with BR management as the extra passengers were said to not have generated additional income at that price.

The AM10 ride was certainly better than the AM4! Though the latter offered compensation by way of the bouncy seats.

I had a morning exploring the Broad Street lines in the early 80s, when it was obvious that Broad Street wasn’t going to last much longer. The 501s, while obviously of Southern ancestry, seemed a lot dowdier and more rickety than their brethren south of the river. The barred windows clearly didn’t help.

Yes they were pretty awful or vintage depending on how you saw them.We wondered it they sent over the most rattly ones. But they had open compartments which was the point of the exercise. Seeing the little two-coach trains leaving the remains of Broad St or Dalston Junction was a grim and clear reminder of the state of rail decay we had got into.

 

[30907]

Yes they were pretty awful or vintage depending on how you saw them.We wondered it they sent over the most rattly ones. But they had open compartments which was the point of the exercise. Seeing the little two-coach trains leaving the remains of Broad St or Dalston Junction was a grim and clear reminder of the state of rail decay we had got into.

Little bit of confusion here: the 2-car sets with open saloons were ex BR(S) 2-EPB (Bulleid style), the 501s were the BR-style 3-cars that they replaced.