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LU to Network Rail track connections.

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Mothball

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Hello all,
I'm starting to build a small model railway based on the Underground, with a Network Rail line running at the back and I'm looking to add a track connection between the two for a bit of added interest. Being from the North I don't know the Underground layout very well, is there many of these connections knocking around? I know of the Ruislip depot and Stonebridge Park connections but I'm looking for any away from the depots I can use as a reference, the seldom used engineering only type.
TIA
 
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Lewlew

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Queens Park on the Bakerloo has connections onto Network Rail track. The trains go through the sheds but 21 and 24 roads are classed as running lines (21 being northbound and 24 southbound).

Platforms 1 and 4 are Network Rail tracks (1 is the UP DC, 4 is the Down DC).

Platforms 2 and 3 are Underground tracks (2 is the southbound, 3 is northbound)

Bakerloo trains can use all 4 platforms but run empty from platform 1 to 4 via Kilburn High Road.

 

MotCO

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Technically Richmond where District and NR use the same track to Gunnersbury and Kew Gardens.
 

MotCO

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The connection between LU and NR is at Gunnersbury, no connection at Richmond

But do they still use the same track, and if so, surely the platform at Richmond (not through lines) connect?
 

Snow1964

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But do they still use the same track, and if so, surely the platform at Richmond (not through lines) connect?

Many years ago was a junction with the mainline (almost opposite the signal box). Until a few years ago platform 5 did have a connection.

Not sure what era the Op is modelling, but used to be many more connections. In SW London as was

Gunnersbury to Kew Bridge spur,
Turnham Green to Acton
Studland Road (near Stamford Brook)
Kensington Olympia
Paddington H&C

Many from when main line freight still had access eg Bow to Upminster,
Central line at Leyton & Newbury Park etc
 

MotCO

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Richmond is all NR infrastructure and trains use all platforms 4-7 (NR only pfm.3)

The point I was making, (somewhat clumsily) was that the NR train from platform 3 must link with the LU lines feeding platforms 4 - 7 since the LU and NR trains all use the same track to Gunnersbury.
 

AlbertBeale

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Many years ago was a junction with the mainline (almost opposite the signal box). Until a few years ago platform 5 did have a connection.

Not sure what era the Op is modelling, but used to be many more connections. In SW London as was

Gunnersbury to Kew Bridge spur,
Turnham Green to Acton
Studland Road (near Stamford Brook)
Kensington Olympia
Paddington H&C

Many from when main line freight still had access eg Bow to Upminster,
Central line at Leyton & Newbury Park etc

Turnham Green to which Acton?
Re Studland Rd, I think that should be Studland St? And if you mean that west-to-north viaduct through the old Grove Road station, surely that diverges after Ravenscourt Park, not Stamford Brook? (I'm a bit picky about that bit of geography, having been born in Queen Charlotte's!)
 

Snow1964

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Turnham Green to which Acton?
Re Studland Rd, I think that should be Studland St? And if you mean that west-to-north viaduct through the old Grove Road station, surely that diverges after Ravenscourt Park, not Stamford Brook? (I'm a bit picky about that bit of geography, having been born in Queen Charlotte's!)

Sorry meant Turnham Green - South Acton (the North side of the triangle where Colonial Drive is now

You we’re also correct about Studland, should have not done it from memory
 

Metroman62

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This picture is Mantles Wood, a mile or so past Amersham station where Network Rail track joins TFL track, just by the small signs on the trackside.
 

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rebmcr

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This picture is Mantles Wood, a mile or so past Amersham station where Network Rail track joins TFL track, just by the small signs on the trackside.

I didn't realise TfL track went that far past the turnback sidings on the north end of Amersham station.
 

jopsuk

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The point I was making, (somewhat clumsily) was that the NR train from platform 3 must link with the LU lines feeding platforms 4 - 7 since the LU and NR trains all use the same track to Gunnersbury.
everything from the boundary at Gunnersby to the buffer stops on all four bay platforms at Richmond is Network Rail. Overground trains are permitted to use all four platforms whilst Underground ones are not permitted in Platform 3. There are no "LU" lines at Richmond.
 

swt_passenger

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Re-Reading the first post, surely what the OP actually wanted was examples of connections of the “seldom used engineering only type”; rather than a list of areas with normal NR/LU timetabled operation?
 

AlbertBeale

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Sorry meant Turnham Green - South Acton (the North side of the triangle where Colonial Drive is now

You we’re also correct about Studland, should have not done it from memory

Aha - so the north side of the Gunnersbury Triangle was originally defined by the route of that former connection; I never knew there had been one. I just assumed that the north of the triangle was defined by the route of the Underground lines... Was that connection ever used for through passenger services in any era?
 

AlbertBeale

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everything from the boundary at Gunnersby to the buffer stops on all four bay platforms at Richmond is Network Rail. Overground trains are permitted to use all four platforms whilst Underground ones are not permitted in Platform 3. There are no "LU" lines at Richmond.

Should that be "...all five platforms..."? Platform 3 is still used sometimes, isn't it? (Albeit, perhaps, not by Underground trains.)
 

etr221

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This picture is Mantles Wood, a mile or so past Amersham station where Network Rail track joins TFL track, just by the small signs on the trackside.
I didn't realise TfL track went that far past the turnback sidings on the north end of Amersham station.
Yes, it is most convenient to put an ownership boundary somewhere easy with nothing else going on.
I did somewhere come across why it is there: IIRC it was set as being the sighting point for the (then) Amersham up distant signal, as being the furthest LT relevant point on the line.
 

Dstock7080

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I have never noticed that before, thanks for the gen. Has that always been the case at Richmond or was it removed at some stage? What is the reasoning for platform 3 not having the fourth rail?
Platform 3 did form a connection to the Southern lines in later years, after the main crossing before the station was removed.
The NLL to Southern connection was removed a few years ago.
 

etr221

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Richmond is one of those stations with an interesting history...

When I was little, so a a good few years ago (1960s), there was a barrier at platform/concourse level between the main terminating platforms (4-7, used (as the Ticket Office said) by LMS and LPTB District line trains), and the up Windsor line platform (2), also (terminating, bay) platform 3, the other side of its island: if you wanted to to change between the Windsor and Gunnersbury lines, you had to go up to bridge/booking hall level. Whether platform 3 at that stage was electrified I cannot recall (if I even noticed); as I recall, it was very little used, except for parking the occasional van. My recollection was that - almost invariably - LT District trains used platforms 6 & 7, 'LMS' NLL trains 4 & 5: at that time both used 3rd & 4th rail electrification. The double track, but little used, connection east of the station was not electrified: I believe when (after the North Western electric changed to 3rd rail only) a Southern 4-COR used it for a railtour, it coasted across.

I believe the double track Windsor-Gunnersbury connection was removed as part of the Feltham resignalling project, after which I don't think there was any connection: when (in Network South East days?) it was decided to use SR 2-EPB units on the NLL, a connection (electrified) was put in, trailing from the up Windsor line to platform 3, for stock transfer (the units were based at Selhurst). I think it was about that time that the barrier mentioned above was removed, and Richmond station was integrated.

Prior to about 1936 the Windsor line plaforms (1 & 2) were in what was essentially a separate station, a bit further west: when the Southern rebuilt the station 'as one' they do did so providing for quadrupling of the Windsor line: platform 3 would have become a through platform 'Up Windsor Local', while platform 1 would have become an island, with a new 'Down Local' line - I don't know how definite the quadrupling proposal for this was, but I believe the Twickenham Station rebuilding also took account of it.

Going way back (to Edwardian times, or even earlier), I don't know what the arrangements/agreements regarding the terminating platforms were: it may be that platforms 6 & 7 (using modern numbers) were the MDR's, and that originally (for their electrification in 1905) they were the only platforms done; with more (4 & 5) for the LNWR (NLL) electrification in c1916.
 

Dr_Paul

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Richmond is one of those stations with an interesting history... When I was little, so a a good few years ago (1960s), there was a barrier at platform/concourse level between the main terminating platforms (4-7, used (as the Ticket Office said) by LMS and LPTB District line trains), and the up Windsor line platform (2), also (terminating, bay) platform 3, the other side of its island: if you wanted to to change between the Windsor and Gunnersbury lines, you had to go up to bridge/booking hall level. Whether platform 3 at that stage was electrified I cannot recall (if I even noticed); as I recall, it was very little used, except for parking the occasional van. My recollection was that - almost invariably - LT District trains used platforms 6 & 7, 'LMS' NLL trains 4 & 5: at that time both used 3rd & 4th rail electrification. The double track, but little used, connection east of the station was not electrified: I believe when (after the North Western electric changed to 3rd rail only) a Southern 4-COR used it for a railtour, it coasted across.

I believe the double track Windsor-Gunnersbury connection was removed as part of the Feltham resignalling project, after which I don't think there was any connection: when (in Network South East days?) it was decided to use SR 2-EPB units on the NLL, a connection (electrified) was put in, trailing from the up Windsor line to platform 3, for stock transfer (the units were based at Selhurst). I think it was about that time that the barrier mentioned above was removed, and Richmond station was integrated. Prior to about 1936 the Windsor line plaforms (1 & 2) were in what was essentially a separate station, a bit further west: when the Southern rebuilt the station 'as one' they do did so providing for quadrupling of the Windsor line: platform 3 would have become a through platform 'Up Windsor Local', while platform 1 would have become an island, with a new 'Down Local' line - I don't know how definite the quadrupling proposal for this was, but I believe the Twickenham Station rebuilding also took account of it.

Going way back (to Edwardian times, or even earlier), I don't know what the arrangements/agreements regarding the terminating platforms were: it may be that platforms 6 & 7 (using modern numbers) were the MDR's, and that originally (for their electrification in 1905) they were the only platforms done; with more (4 & 5) for the LNWR (NLL) electrification in c1916.

This map shows Richmond when I knew it as a kid. The double crossover from the Gunnersbury to the Windsor lines can be seen, and there were also two indirect connections via sidings, one via the siding between the Windsor and Gunnersbury lines, the other via a slip from the line from the goods-yard to the up Gunnersbury line. I'm not sure what the double crossover was used for; I lived near the Gasworks Bridge and never saw anything other than NLL and District trains going underneath. Goods services down from Acton Wells to Feltham would go via Kew Bridge. My granny told me of trains loaded with prisoners-of-war going under the Gasworks Bridge during the Second World War; although her memory was often quite inventive, this might well be true as there was a prison camp at Kempton Park and trains coming off the NLL would go via Richmond and Strawberry Hill. (Other details: the two sidings behind the signal box were electrified, and I believe that a couple of Underground sets were kept there overnight; the central siding between platforms 3 and 4 wasn't electrified and I never saw it used; I also don't recall anything on platform 3 except the odd van.)

I've also always been under the impression that the Windsor line station rebuilding in the 1930s was carried out with the opportunity for quadrupling. The map gives us a clue with the shape of the platforms, especially the down one. It would be interesting to poke around the back of the platforms to see whether the Kew Road bridge was rebuilt with space for four tracks. Quadrupling would have required the Parkshot bridge to have been rebuilt, but the Church Road bridge had (and still has) an additional arch on the down side, which was for the line into the original goods yard.

Aha - so the north side of the Gunnersbury Triangle was originally defined by the route of that former connection; I never knew there had been one. I just assumed that the north of the triangle was defined by the route of the Underground lines... Was that connection ever used for through passenger services in any era?

As far as I know, the line from South Acton to Turnham Green was just for the coal trains to and from the Midland coal yard adjacent to Lillie Bridge LT yard. There used to be a line off the down District at West Kensington, as can be seen on this map.
 
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