Man Vic to London Sleeper?

[NightatLaira]

(First post on this forum!)

So I though I'd ask an old question of mine which no one has ever successfully been able to answer.

I once heard a rumour that there used to be a sleeper service of some description which went from Manchester Victoria to one of the London Terminii. This was discontinued in the late 60s / early 70s IIRC and left very late at night, arriving quite early on in the morning.

I believe it was a genuine 'sleeper service' with some sleeper accommodation, it may also have had seated accommodation, but I'm told it had no restaurant or buffet. I do not believe it was principally a newspaper/parcels job - although I'm quite sure it participated in some of that work too!

Can anyone shed any more light on the matter? Thanks!

 

[yorksrob]

I do remember reading somewhere that there were some late night trains which ran between Paddington and various places in the North and Scotland. as I understand it, these were formed of ordinary rather than sleeper stock, were very slow (using circuitous routes) and very cheap.

Personally I'd love the idea of cheap train in the middle of the night taking three times as long formed of a rake of Mk 1's and loco's

 

[4SRKT]

I do remember reading somewhere that there were some late night trains which ran between Paddington and various places in the North and Scotland. as I understand it, these were formed of ordinary rather than sleeper stock, were very slow (using circuitous routes) and very cheap.

Personally I'd love the idea of cheap train in the middle of the night taking three times as long formed of a rake of Mk 1's and loco's

It was great. I used these sorts of trains all the time in the 1980s, my main one being the 02:25 York > Shrewsbury mail, that arrived at Shrewsbury at 03:03. It had one SK tucked into the rake of BGs, TPOs and GUVs. Sometimes even only a BSK, and therefore only 24 seats! It was a really useful train, which connected at Stockport into the Manchester > Euston sleeper, at Crewe into the Manchester > Cardiff mail (which left Crewe earlier than the York > Shrewsbury), and at Shrewsbury into 04:08 to Aberystwth, which was a pair of 37s on summer Saturdays!

 

[gordonthemoron]

how come it only took 38 mins from york to shrewsbury, warp drive?

 

[4SRKT]

how come it only took 38 mins from york to shrewsbury, warp drive?

Oops. 22:25 York > Shrewsbury.

 

[flymo]

The BR 1975/76 timetable shows a sleeper, also with seated accommodation, from Manchester to Euston but this went from Piccadilly though, not Victoria. Maybe there were other services from Victoria before this time. Incidentally there was a sleeper from Liverpool as well which ran up as a separate service all the was to Euston but the down sleepers ran as one service and split (I'm guessing here) at Stafford.

Anyway just FYI the times for the Manchester sleeper were as shown below

 

[furryfeet]

definitely man picc to euston.
It carried sleeper coaches and seated accomodation.

I went on it in about 1985, but I cannot remember when it was withdrawn.

 

[MCR247]

Its a shame that there isn't more sleepers, they are a great way of travelling, but I suppose they just aren't profitable enough

 

[yorksrob]

It was great. I used these sorts of trains all the time in the 1980s, my main one being the 02:25 York > Shrewsbury mail, that arrived at Shrewsbury at 03:03. It had one SK tucked into the rake of BGs, TPOs and GUVs. Sometimes even only a BSK, and therefore only 24 seats! It was a really useful train, which connected at Stockport into the Manchester > Euston sleeper, at Crewe into the Manchester > Cardiff mail (which left Crewe earlier than the York > Shrewsbury), and at Shrewsbury into 04:08 to Aberystwth, which was a pair of 37s on summer Saturdays!

These trains must have been extremely useful and I should imagine there must have been quite a sense of exclusivity for those in the know

 

[saracen43]

I remember a man picc to brighton in the early eighties which called at leamington spa
at about 2 oclock in the morning,it was really usefull for getting down south for an early
start.Think it just consisted of mk1 seaters,no sleepers.

 

[Old Timer]

The BR 1975/76 timetable shows a sleeper, also with seated accommodation, from Manchester to Euston but this went from Piccadilly though, not Victoria. Maybe there were other services from Victoria before this time. Incidentally there was a sleeper from Liverpool as well which ran up as a separate service all the was to Euston but the down sleepers ran as one service and split (I'm guessing here) at Stafford.

Anyway just FYI the times for the Manchester sleeper were as shown below

You are referring to 1A01 0027 Manchester Piccadilly / 0025 Liverpool Lime St to Euston sleeper services which joined at Stafford.

 

[flymo]

You are referring to 1A01 0027 Manchester Piccadilly / 0025 Liverpool Lime St to Euston sleeper services which joined at Stafford.

Nope, the 2 Up services ran as separate trains all the way to London, at least during the validity of this timetable. (May75-May76). The down services did run as a single service from Euston and split at Stafford.

The Manchester train ran as shown above, i.e. 0027 from Manchester and 0407 into London but the Liverpool train left at 0030 SuX (0040 SuO) calling at (Sunday times in italics) The Liverpool train also carried both sleepers and seated accommodation

Crewe 0124 0216
Stafford 0201 0250
Tamworth 0228 .....
Nuneaton 0243 .....
Rugby 0301 0402
Northampton 0326 0429
Bletchley 0347 0458
Euston 0441 0603

 

[Welshman]

Sorry to be so late in responding, NightatLaira, but I've just discovered your thread re the Manchester Victoria-London service.
While the WC main line was being electrified in the 1960s, services from Manchester to London were often re-routed, and this was one of them.
I used it in 1967 or 68, on a Sunday night, to return to university. It left the long platform 11 at Manchester Victoria about 2330, and went up Miles Platting bank, took the Stalybridge line but then branched off again at Phillips Park and wandered through the NE suburbs of Manchester, eventually reaching the Midland line at Chinley, then through the Hope Valley, round Dore South Curve and the Midland route into St Pancras, arriving about 0700 the Monday morning. I can't remember if it went via the Erewash Valley or via Derby, as I'd dozed-off at that stage!
It was formed of steam-heat Mk1s [no sleepers], but as it was not exactly crowded, I managed to get a compartment to myself, dim the lights and settle down for the night. As the schedule was not very demanding, it stopped for some time at intermediate stations - I seem to remember waking-up at Kettering about 0515!
I used it only once - it ran just for a limited period, but it was a useful and cheap way of returning to London in time for Monday morning's lectures.

 

[route101]

Yeah Compartments are only good if your the only one in them . The thing is if this service would operate now it would leave late and arrive far too early . Ive got a Scotrail timetable from 87 showing intra scotland sleepers Glasgow/ edinburgh to inverness!

 

[saracen43]

Regarding overnight trains in 80s,does anyone remember a man-picc to brighton passenger working which called at leamington spa at about 2.15am
The return working called at L/spa at around 12.30 the next day.

 

[jamesontheroad]

Yeah Compartments are only good if your the only one in them . The thing is if this service would operate now it would leave late and arrive far too early . Ive got a Scotrail timetable from 87 showing intra scotland sleepers Glasgow/ edinburgh to inverness!

Having just done the ~ eight hour roundtrip from Glasgow to Inverness on Wednesday to file a report on the Scottish Housing Expo, I'm now going to dedicate my energies to restoring that service!

What were the timings like? I'm thinking Glasgow -> Perth -> Dundee -> Aberdeen -> Inverness would be a sensible route to serve all the major towns and cities (and to stretch the journey out into a reasonable night's kip!)

 

[NightatLaira]

Sorry to be so late in responding, NightatLaira, but I've just discovered your thread re the Manchester Victoria-London service.
While the WC main line was being electrified in the 1960s, services from Manchester to London were often re-routed, and this was one of them.
I used it in 1967 or 68, on a Sunday night, to return to university. It left the long platform 11 at Manchester Victoria about 2330, and went up Miles Platting bank, took the Stalybridge line but then branched off again at Phillips Park and wandered through the NE suburbs of Manchester, eventually reaching the Midland line at Chinley, then through the Hope Valley, round Dore South Curve and the Midland route into St Pancras, arriving about 0700 the Monday morning. I can't remember if it went via the Erewash Valley or via Derby, as I'd dozed-off at that stage!
It was formed of steam-heat Mk1s [no sleepers], but as it was not exactly crowded, I managed to get a compartment to myself, dim the lights and settle down for the night. As the schedule was not very demanding, it stopped for some time at intermediate stations - I seem to remember waking-up at Kettering about 0515!
I used it only once - it ran just for a limited period, but it was a useful and cheap way of returning to London in time for Monday morning's lectures.

Fascinating stuff! Proves St Pancras ha had a role for short-term diversions from Manchester even before the Project Rio days...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Having just done the ~ eight hour roundtrip from Glasgow to Inverness on Wednesday to file a report on the Scottish Housing Expo, I'm now going to dedicate my energies to restoring that service!

What were the timings like? I'm thinking Glasgow -> Perth -> Dundee -> Aberdeen -> Inverness would be a sensible route to serve all the major towns and cities (and to stretch the journey out into a reasonable night's kip!)

Could also be a useful bargaining proposition if they ever threatened to kill off the Highland Sleeper on cost grounds in the future as well?

Split it into just 2 sections: a West Highland section and a Stirling > Perth > Dundee > East Coast > Moray Coast sleeper train. One bar car and a similar sized crew could be used to operate it as Moray Coast to Inverness customers need not be woken up till after Aberdeen. - (shame Dunkeld to Carrbridge would lose out tho!)

 

[route101]

Cant see a GLA/EDI to inverness sleeper operating now . ill dig out the timetable with the timings.

 

[flymo]

From the '84 - '85 timetable the timings for the Edinburgh / Glasgow QS - Inverness sleeper are in the attached.
I did this once, a few years later, in seated accommodation, then took the early train to Thurso. Not a huge amount to do in Inverness at 0450 but the train was healthily loaded.

 

[jamesontheroad]

From the '84 - '85 timetable the timings for the Edinburgh / Glasgow QS - Inverness sleeper are in the attached.
I did this once, a few years later, in seated accommodation, then took the early train to Thurso. Not a huge amount to do in Inverness at 0450 but the train was healthily loaded.

Thanks for sharing that. I can't imagine the intermediate stops between Perth and Inverness would have had many takers. But on a Friday or Saturday night, a 00:00 or 01:00 departure from GLQ/EDB might appeal to folks looking for a big night out in the city.

 

[Snapper]

Realistically, how many people would use such services now?

They could have been justified when it was a case of shoving a BSK or possibly a genuine sleeper on the rear of a mail or newspaper train, but now they've disappeared they would be completely uneconomic.

 

[Greenback]

Realistically, how many people would use such services now?

They could have been justified when it was a case of shoving a BSK or possibly a genuine sleeper on the rear of a mail or newspaper train, but now they've disappeared they would be completely uneconomic.

Yes, I don;t think it;s feasible under the privatised system we have today. In the past under BR passenger accommodation could be put on at a pretty marginal cost when the train was going to run anyway. Today, all the staff costs would be boren by the TOC, plus the accountants would charge a % of the leasing costs and track access charges to the service, which would make it unprofitable.

 

[route101]

0450 would be too early for me . As long as they let you lie in . A through carriage to thurso would be cool . Im surprised there is not an overnight coach to scrabster for orkney

 

[flymo]

0450 would be too early for me . As long as they let you lie in .

I should have mentioned that on the sleepers you could remain in the berth until 0730 at Inverness, Edinburgh & Glasgow on Monday mornings - Saturday mornings and 0800 on Sundays. I know you did have to get off if you were in seated, or at least you did when I did the trip. Still it did allow a stretch of the legs before getting the 0635 to Thurso.

Whilst I'm sure that this sort of overnight service would be difficult or even impossible to justify nowadays it did allow an early start from Inverness if you were heading up that way.

Is it possible to board the London Euston - Inverness sleeper at Edinburgh now?

 

[MCR247]

Is it possible to board the London Euston - Inverness sleeper at Edinburgh now?

No its not

 

[NightatLaira]

0450 would be too early for me . As long as they let you lie in . A through carriage to thurso would be cool . Im surprised there is not an overnight coach to scrabster for orkney

0450 would be too early for me . As long as they let you lie in . A through carriage to thurso would be cool . Im surprised there is not an overnight coach to scrabster for orkney

I wonder... *and perhaps I'm just in dreamland here but...*

If the Inverness portion of the Highland sleeper couldn't 'carry on' after a short stop, restock and crew change at Inverness to become a morning departure for the Far North Line as well as a direct connection for it and London?

Both services are operated by FSR so decision would need to be taken over whether to keep the existing DMU morning departure or whether to keep the current 3 trains per day. Perhaps a 67 stabled at Georgemas might be a more attractive option than a loco on drag on the rear for the most part of the journey.

This would provide Londoners with ample sleep time if heading north of Inverness and would also open up the prospect of decent night's sleep to Crew and Preston people. The service could still arrive into the Northern Ports before lunchtime providing a London connection to Orcadians and would instantly upgrade the facilties from a trolley and 156 to mk3s and mk2s with a full service hot buffet, so you might also see an increase in long distance intra-Scotland services like 'Perth to Brora' or 'Aviemore to Helmsdale' They may need to add in a 'standard class' seating coach just to even the odds for people joining north of Inverness on Standard tickets (but that wouldn't be difficult).


The locomotive and stock could be stabled for a four hour 'break' at one of the sidings in Thurso, Wick or Georgemas and then return about 1630 as the 'Sleeper to London via Inverness.

 

[route101]

yeah sounds a good idea , breakfast past inverness . How long does it take to drive to thurso?

 

[NightatLaira]

yeah sounds a good idea , breakfast past inverness . How long does it take to drive to thurso?

Ages! It's an hour just to Brora, and although it's A road all the way, it's pretty much all single carriageway with tractors and caravans. You average 40mph at best.

Inverness to Wick/Thurso by car - 4 hours I'd say. And you're knackered from driving at the end of it.

 

[DiscoStu]

I used the Glasgow/Edinburgh - Inverness sleeper many times in the 80/90's. It was nicknamed "The Internal" for obvious reasons.

While it did arrive in Inverness at silly o'clock, the stock for the first Kyle and Wick/Thurso trains were usually sat in their platforms so you could get some kip before departure time. It was particularly good when the trains were formed of MKI compos

I remember being on the internal one night and I sleepwalked onto the platform at Blair Atholl whilst my family were asleep on the train - luckily my old man woke up and managed to get me back on the train in time! That would have been a disaster if the train had left as I was only about ten years old and it was snowing outside!!

 

[route101]

Theres no even internal overnight coach services in Scotland. Glasgow - Thurso overnight with connection to Orkney sounds good.