Manchester Recovery Taskforce (timetable) consultation

[JonathanH]

- I'm inclined to think that the Manchester - Scotlands should stop at Bolton anyway. It's an important regional centre and the train has to slow down to go through there anyway.

Yes, to pick up and set down only. What no one wants is people from Bolton crowding aboard the TPE service and leaving no room for longer distance passengers.

It really depends on how well it can be 'hidden' in the timetable so that local passengers don't use it.

 

[Glenn1969]

i think Option A reduces via Bradford Calder Valley frequency to 1 per hour which post Covid is sub optimal and not acceptable

 

[cle]

Will anything replace the fast stop at Wigan NW on the Cumbria service?

I am just glad that the whole timetable isn't based around leisure travellers' annual trip to Manchester Airport from every northern town and village.

Frequency is freedom, as is regularity. Having something templatized at 2tph is far better for both occasional and regular users, and is better for scheduling connections. And likely for missed connections.

People need to understand that:
the railway needs to evolve
Manchester has grown and evolved too, and Victoria is 'back' as a principle station. Piccadilly is not the be all and end all. It's one edge of the centre.
they can walk the rest of their journey (or cycle/tram)
they can change (same platform) for the airport, or the other city station they need
leisure travel is not that important (and most are shorthaul - i.e. hand luggage)

A proper Salford Central development would really help round this out though, all platforms reinstated but possibly even with a spare side/bay for more terminating options.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, to pick up and set down only. What no one wants is people from Bolton crowding aboard the TPE service and leaving no room for longer distance passengers.

It really depends on how well it can be 'hidden' in the timetable so that local passengers don't use it.

True. They could time it right behind a Northern non-stop to Salford Crescent.

i think Option A reduces via Bradford Calder Valley frequency to 1 per hour which post Covid is sub optimal and not acceptable

I think the Chester goes via Bradford as well doesn't it ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd be inclined to go with option A. It keeps most of the inter-regional links, and I don't like the idea of splitting the Man - Liv CLC stopper at Warrington.

I don't entirely understand why they need to do that. Presumably on the Liverpool side there is space for 2tph of stoppers as I think was what operated before the services were joined - surely one of them can run through.

True. They could time it right behind a Northern non-stop to Salford Crescent.

Or just space them out to a perfect 15 minute clockface, and people will use whatever?

With the Blackpool services being 6.331, and 331s having nice interiors (provided you're not bothered about looking out of the window) I'm not sure people will jump to the fast trains with an identical journey time, they'll spread out. It's also less of an issue with the longer TPE trains; there was a much bigger issue when it involved crowding 3.185 or 4.350 out.

 

[yorksrob]

I don't entirely understand why they need to do that. Presumably on the Liverpool side there is space for 2tph of stoppers as I think was what operated before the services were joined - surely one of them can run through.

Indeed. And I don't have an objection to some of the larger stops being picked up by the expresses to provide a decent service additionally.

With the Blackpool services being 6.331, and 331s having nice interiors (provided you're not bothered about looking out of the window) I'm not sure people will jump to the fast trains with an identical journey time, they'll spread out. It's also less of an issue with the longer TPE trains; there was a much bigger issue when it involved crowding 3.185 or 4.350 out.

I noticed that the 3 carriage Blackpool's were amongst the busier trains I'd been on last year, so some might be tempted to get a longer TPE.

 

[IanXC]

i think Option A reduces via Bradford Calder Valley frequency to 1 per hour which post Covid is sub optimal and not acceptable

You think incorrectly.

Option A has:
1tph Leeds - Bradford - Victoria - Chester
1tph Leeds - Bradford - Victoria - Wigan
1tph Leeds - Dewsbury - Victoria - Wigan

 

[43074]

I'd be inclined to go with option A. It keeps most of the inter-regional links, and I don't like the idea of splitting the Man - Liv CLC stopper at Warrington. The only things I would add are:

- Why are they dropping to 1 Buxton an hour ? Given it terminates in the bay at Pic, these services should presumably cause minimal disruption.
- I'm inclined to think that the Manchester - Scotlands should stop at Bolton anyway. It's an important regional centre and the train has to slow down to go through there anyway.
- To improve services on the mid-cheshire line, couldn't they have an additional train an hour to Stockport, connecting into Manchester.

The stopper via Warrington Central is timed very tightly between the 2 fasts at either end, whereas splitting it at Warrington provides a longer gap between it and either the preceding or following fast train so is therefore more resilient when mixed with late running long distance trains.

I believe Northern offered terminating mid-Cheshire services at Altrincham or Stockport to the user group as an option to provide 2tph at a previous timetable change, but it fell through.

Personally, I would support option C, as it provides the greatest benefits to both demand and performance, and local services in the Manchester area would benefit from the regularity that repeating 2tph or 4tph patterns provide. Anything less is a fudge of what existed pre-Covid which we already know doesn't work very well, it just requires some brave decisions being made.

 

[Greybeard33]

Class 769s.....?

I suspect a 769 on diesel might struggle on the long 1 in 73 drag from Bolton up to Entwhistle.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I noticed that the 3 carriage Blackpool's were amongst the busier trains I'd been on last year, so some might be tempted to get a longer TPE.

I believe they're near enough all 6-car now and that's permanent (and so it should be; we should be planning for 9-car in the next 10 years rather than building more white elephants).

I suspect a 769 on diesel might struggle on the long 1 in 73 drag from Bolton up to Entwhistle.

If they can get to Buxton they'll manage. It's not like it didn't used to be operated using knackered, seriously underpowered heritage DMUs.

 

[yorksrob]

The stopper via Warrington Central is timed very tightly between the 2 fasts at either end, whereas splitting it at Warrington provides a longer gap between it and either the preceding or following fast train so is therefore more resilient when mixed with late running long distance trains.

I believe Northern offered terminating mid-Cheshire services at Altrincham or Stockport to the user group as an option to provide 2tph at a previous timetable change, but it fell through.

Personally, I would support option C, as it provides the greatest benefits to both demand and performance, and local services in the Manchester area would benefit from the regularity that repeating 2tph or 4tph patterns provide. Anything less is a fudge of what existed pre-Covid which we already know doesn't work very well, it just requires some brave decisions being made.

That's interesting. I wonder why they turned down terminating at Stockport/Altricham, as the stoppers currently only go as far as Oxford Road.

I believe they're near enough all 6-car now and that's permanent (and so it should be; we should be planning for 9-car in the next 10 years rather than building more white elephants).

That's good. I agree with the move to longer trains. In the post covid world, that one will be busy.

 

[Greybeard33]

I don't entirely understand why they need to do that. Presumably on the Liverpool side there is space for 2tph of stoppers as I think was what operated before the services were joined - surely one of them can run through.

Splitting the CLC stoppers at Warrington enables them to provide an even 2tph Takt service at all stations. A through service to Liverpool has to be skip-stop to fit between the 2tph semi-fasts, resulting in an irregular service that is only 1tp2h at some of the Greater Manchester stations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Splitting the CLC stoppers at Warrington enables them to provide an even 2tph Takt service at all stations. A through service to Liverpool has to be skip-stop to fit between the 2tph semi-fasts, resulting in an irregular service that is only 1tp2h at some of the Greater Manchester stations.

Of course if it were Switzerland we'd build another platform at Warrington, allowing it to be parked in there for an overtake. But we never design infrastructure for the required service.

The proposals don't say how frequent the Liverpool-Warrington stoppers will be - if 2tph, that's just going back to what it was pre-1998 near enough, though I'm fairly sure that also had an hourly semifast.

 

[Greybeard33]

They seem to have removed the business case for 769s, as Southport-Alderley Edge will be split across Manchester.

The 769s could be transferred to the Southport - Stalybridge via Bolton and Piccadilly - Buxton services.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Absolutely loving Option B. A standard half-hourly path from Lime Street, Warrington Central and Oxford Road to Piccadilly, Stockport and Sheffield. Blinding effort.

 

[Spandau]

Is there not a very simple fix:

1) Divert the Chester/North Wales via Warrington service to Man Vic. Is there nowhere it can turn around there rather than a wasteful extension to S-Vegas? There used to be Red Bank carriage sidings. Is there still space for a reversing siding?
2) Split the Liverpool-Manchester-Crewe stopper into separate Lime St-Victoria and Piccadilly-Crewe services. The joining up only really came about as a sop to former users of the Liverpool-Airport via St Helens Jct semi-fast and have proved a disaster in terms of reliability.

Four trips per hour through the corridor removed at a stroke Job done?

One further thought. ALL tickets valid via Manchester should be accepted on Metrolink. That would tidy up Pic-Vic and vice versa transfers considerably.

 

[Llandudno]

My choice would be Option C, especially since it would improve the service on my local line (the Mid Cheshire)

But I think it will encounter a lot of political opposition, because of the large number of users who would lose direct services and/or have increased journey times. In timetable recasts, the loud complaints from losers always drown out the faint praise from gainers.

I have tried to summarise below all the losers, line by line:
CLC line:
• Loss of direct service Liverpool – Airport (change at Oxford Road)
• Loss of direct cross-Warrington service for the lesser stations (change at Warrington Central)
• Some lesser stations have increased journey times to Manchester (all shacks)
Chat Moss line:
• Loss of direct service Liverpool – Piccadilly & Airport (change at Oxford Road)
Wigan lines:
• Off peak, reduction from 3tph to 2tph on the Atherton line (already cut from 4tph!)
• Loss of direct service Southport – Piccadilly & Stockport (change at Bolton or Salford Crescent, and at Piccadilly for Stockport)
• Off peak, loss of direct service Southport – Oxford Road
• Off peak, loss of fast service Wigan NW – Piccadilly & Airport via Chat Moss
Bolton - Chorley - Preston line:
• Loss of direct service Blackpool – Stockport (change at Piccadilly)
• Off peak, loss of direct service Preston – Salford Central & Victoria (change at Salford Crescent)
Blackburn – Clitheroe line:
• Increased journey times to Manchester via Bolton due to calls at Moses Gate, Farnworth and Kearsley (DMU stoppers on electrified line!)
Hazel Grove line:
• Loss of direct service Hazel Grove – Bolton, Preston & Blackpool (change at Piccadilly, main shed to P13/14, or at both Stockport and Piccadilly)
• Off peak, reduction from 3tph to 2tph (wires to Hazel Grove only used in peaks!)
Stockport – Crewe line:
• Loss of direct stopping service Stockport/Cheadle Hulme/Handforth – Chelford/Goostrey/Holmes Chapel/Sandbach/Crewe (change at Wilmslow)
Sheffield via Hope Valley line:
• Loss of direct service Cleethorpes/Sheffield – Airport (change at Piccadilly)
Huddersfield - Leeds line:
• Increased journey time Piccadilly – Hull (all shacks Stalybridge – Huddersfield)
• Peak only, reduction from 2tph to 1tph on Ordsall Chord (Victoria – Piccadilly & Airport)
Chester & N Wales lines:
• Increased journey time N Wales – Manchester (slower direct service to Piccadilly via Northwich, or change at Chester for Victoria via Warrington)
• Loss of direct services N Wales & Chester – Oxford Road or Airport (large increase in journey times)

Altogether that is going to add up to a lot of aggrieved users kicking off!

The current TfW train from Llandudno to Manchester Piccadilly via Warrington BQ takes around 2hrs 15mins, I wonder how much extra it will take if it was rerouted via Northwich calling only at, say
Northwich, Knutsford, Altrincham and Stockport?

 

[The Planner]

Reasonable amount of freight via Northwich too, a semi fast might cause a few problems there. Not read the report so it may be factored in.

 

[peters]

I'd be inclined to go with option A. It keeps most of the inter-regional links, and I don't like the idea of splitting the Man - Liv CLC stopper at Warrington. The only things I would add are:

- Why are they dropping to 1 Buxton an hour ? Given it terminates in the bay at Pic, these services should presumably cause minimal disruption.
- I'm inclined to think that the Manchester - Scotlands should stop at Bolton anyway. It's an important regional centre and the train has to slow down to go through there anyway.
- To improve services on the mid-cheshire line, couldn't they have an additional train an hour to Stockport, connecting into Manchester.

Mid-Cheshire services only to Stockport isn't a good option, either for passengers or the signallers. The evening peak time extras leaving Stockport are much less well used than the services which start at Piccadilly. On one you get a choice of seats, on the other the choice may be stand in the doorway or don't get on.

Buxton services terminating at Stockport would be much more straight forward as they could use platform 0 at Stockport. Why someone decided more Buxton services northbound crossing every single line at Stockport is OK but more Mid Cheshire services doing it southbound isn't, is beyond me!

 

[peters]

The current TfW train from Llandudno to Manchester Piccadilly via Warrington BQ takes around 2hrs 15mins, I wonder how much extra it will take if it was rerouted via Northwich calling only at, say
Northwich, Knutsford, Altrincham and Stockport?

When late running Mid-Cheshire trains miss out stations to make up time the time saving is around 2 minutes per stop skipped. Current all stops takes 90 minutes, missing out 10 stations should save 20 minutes, so I reckon 70 minutes should be the target time if the same trains were used.

Would using faster trains be able to reduce the journey time further between Manchester and Altrincham?

 

[Greybeard33]

The current TfW train from Llandudno to Manchester Piccadilly via Warrington BQ takes around 2hrs 15mins, I wonder how much extra it will take if it was rerouted via Northwich calling only at, say
Northwich, Knutsford, Altrincham and Stockport?

Chester - Piccadilly via Warrington BQ is scheduled at 62 minutes. TfW has a daily ECS via Northwich that is scheduled at 67 minutes non-stop. Add a couple of minutes for each stop - say 75 minutes plus any pathing allowances?

 

[peters]

Reasonable amount of freight via Northwich too, a semi fast might cause a few problems there. Not read the report so it may be factored in.

Freight going towards Altrincham often waits at the disused platform at Northwich and then runs just behind the passenger train.

 

[Llandudno]

Chester - Piccadilly via Warrington BQ is scheduled at 62 minutes. TfW has a daily ECS via Northwich that is scheduled at 67 minutes non-stop. Add a couple of minutes for each stop - say 75 minutes plus any pathing allowances?

Great, so not much difference really.

Stockport useful for eastbound connections but losing north bound west coast connections at Warrington BQ will be a disadvantage for north Wales passengers.

 

[Purple Orange]

For those in the know, what time is Peak in Manchester? Is it just everything before 9:30am? Or is it evening too?

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

I can drive from Llandudno to Manchester airport in an hour.

I can take a direct train in just over 2 hours this new timetable could take aroind 2.5 or more hours or slightly quicker with changes, not ideal to North Wales closest main airport also not a direct train to Warrington for Scotland which is also awkward.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I can drive from Llandudno to Manchester airport in an hour.

I can take a direct train in just over 2 hours this new timetable could take aroind 2.5 or more hours or slightly quicker with changes, not ideal to North Wales closest main airport also not a direct train to Warrington for Scotland which is also awkward.

Get what you say about Warrington. Maybe they'll expect people to want to go to Crewe or take advantage of a half-hourly or so frequency along the Coast for a half-hourly Warrington? Double change still isn't attractive, agreed.

Is it even remotely possible (takes gulp) to have the Northern services extended to Llandudno with TfW drivers who already know CAF units driving 195s along the way; and in return 197s are used for the Chester to Manchester via Greenbank which in turn releases something?

 

[Greybeard33]

For those in the know, what time is Peak in Manchester? Is it just everything before 9:30am? Or is it evening too?

According to the franchise TSRs, the Manchester peaks are 0700 - 0959 and 1600 - 1859 (arrival/departure times at Victoria, Oxford Road or Piccadilly).

 

[cle]

Great, so not much difference really.

Stockport useful for eastbound connections but losing north bound west coast connections at Warrington BQ will be a disadvantage for north Wales passengers.

The Chester - Victoria - Leeds services do Chester-Victoria in 51-53 mins, with just the Warrington call.

The new route via Northwich will be a good 20 minutes longer. With four stops minimum (Northwich, Knuts, Alty, Stockport - but you know Hale will want in) and some slow sections, I can see it being 30 mins longer at times.

It may end up being quicker to grab the ex-Leeds to Chester and jump on another service heading west, coming from London/B'ham/Cardiff/Crewe/Halton one day or a Chester starter even, as mixed up as the North Wales timetable is... there is somewhere that needs a proper Taft!

 

[SuperNova]

If the map is correctly labelled, it shows Liverpool to Cleethorpes being transferred to Northern in Options B and C. Interesting...

It's not - it's an oversight.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Given that you've got East Mids services from Cleethorpes to Barton and Lincoln, it's almost worth just letting East Mids have Cleethorpes and Notts to Liverpool using a fleet of 3-car 170s (doubled up, of course).