Mandated vaccines for care work

[AlterEgo]

So western enlightenment says nothing about responsibility to others? If you are a care worker you should care about the people you look after. Needlessly putting their lives at risk isn’t caring. We’re not talking about brickies or mechanics but people who have prolonged close contact with vulnerable people. If you don't care don't go into care work.

It’s not that it says nothing, but rather that the principle of the individual as sovereign is paramount. It is the very reason we live in a modern democracy and the reason so much freedom has been extended to previously suppressed groups.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

It’s not that it says nothing, but rather that the principle of the individual as sovereign is paramount. It is the very reason we live in a modern democracy and the reason so much freedom has been extended to previously suppressed groups.

Whose fighting for our modern democracy - it certainly aint Labour or the Liberals the latter who have this as a fundamental part of their DNA - no we are left with a number of right wing Tories aka messrs Harper & Baker who are the only ones fighting to keep our rights intact. Enforced vaccination reeks of dictatorships who end up stopping at nothing if not checked. They will believe they can get away with anything and the people are just subservient to it and blinded to what is happening around them due the brainwashing and a complete lack of credible opposition.

 

[kristiang85]

I was saddened to see on a recent all-staff virtual meeting in my place that someone anonymously asked if it could be mandated that those who want to return to the office get vaccinated.

The leadership team didn't answer that one, but I hope they take a sensible approach. But I don't like to think I'm working beside these kinds of people.

 

[RuralRambler]

Vulnerable people that will be offered / given a vaccine? What exactly is the responsibility you are referring to here?

People with certain health conditions can't have the vaccine. They're more likely to be in care homes, hospitals, etc., They need to be protected in some way from staff who may be infectious. It's one of the reasons why oncology staff are already subject to mandatory vaccinations for other things. Hospitals and care homes need to be made into "safe" places. Whether that's by staff vaccinations, better "policing" of hand-washing and other personal hygiene of the staff, is a matter for the management/politicians.

Perhaps we need different kinds of care homes. One for those with vaccinated patients where there staff don't need to be vaccinated. One for those without vaccinated patients where the staff do need to be vaccinated? That way care staff can choose which kind of care home they work in and patients can choose whether they want to be cared for by vaccinated staff or not.

 

[Watershed]

I was saddened to see on a recent all-staff virtual meeting in my place that someone anonymously asked if it could be mandated that those who want to return to the office get vaccinated.

The leadership team didn't answer that one, but I hope they take a sensible approach. But I don't like to think I'm working beside these kinds of people.

I get where you are coming from, but the way to 'deal' with people with that mindset isn't to ignore or antagonise them. It's to engage with them, and try and get them to realise why their suggestion isn't all that great. Of course that won't always be possible, but it's still a better approach than increasing division and factionalism.

 

[kristiang85]

I get where you are coming from, but the way to 'deal' with people with that mindset isn't to ignore or antagonise them. It's to engage with them, and try and get them to realise why their suggestion isn't all that great. Of course that won't always be possible, but it's still a better approach than increasing division and factionalism.

Well if they remain anonymous, how can you do that? The fact that they are asking without identifying themselves means they probably know they are in the wrong, but I see it as utter ignorance of the situation others might be in. Anything that creates any tiers within society should be strongly pushed back on.

 

[richw]

In care work? Yes they may find it harder for existing employees

I seen a leaked letter to staff of a local care home to me, that the owner/operator was offering a 5% pay rise to all staff that took the vaccine, and a pay freeze for 2021 for those who didn’t.

 

[37424]

Whose fighting for our modern democracy - it certainly aint Labour or the Liberals the latter who have this as a fundamental part of their DNA - no we are left with a number of right wing Tories aka messrs Harper & Baker who are the only ones fighting to keep our rights intact. Enforced vaccination reeks of dictatorships who end up stopping at nothing if not checked. They will believe they can get away with anything and the people are just subservient to it and blinded to what is happening around them due the brainwashing and a complete lack of credible opposition.

If you are a care worker and your potentially putting those you care for at risk then that's not acceptable either, and as has been already stated there are some people with medical conditions where they cannot have the vaccine, or they can have it but it may not be fully effective

I am against compulsory vaccination but certain jobs have certain requirements, and if in this case if you don't want to meet those requirements then perhaps you need to consider a different line of work. A bus driver who fails a medical may not be able to drive, and that's tough but potentially beyond that persons control, where as in this situation its up to you whether you want to meet the requirements of the job or not.

 

[Darandio]

What about people to cannot have the vaccine that want to visit a relative in a care home. Are they deemed too dangerous so can no longer visit the family member again?

Enforced vaccination in any form needs to be opposed. Talk of things like this, vaccine passports and the effectively unchallenged abuse of statutory instruments isn't seeing us gently slide down a slippery slope, we are barrelling at high speed down it.

 

[37424]

What about people to cannot have the vaccine that want to visit a relative in a care home. Are they deemed too dangerous so can no longer visit the family member again?

Enforced vaccination in any form needs to be opposed. Talk of things like this, vaccine passports and the effectively unchallenged abuse of statutory instruments isn't seeing us gently slide down a slippery slope, we are barrelling at high speed down it.

Is suspect for the odd visit they can put extra precautions in place, as per usual the anti will try scape the bottom of the barrel with reasons in order to justify the we do as we want position and never mind the potential impact on others.

 

[WelshBluebird]

The fact that they are asking without identifying themselves means they probably know they are in the wrong

I just want to pull up on this, because being anonomus in that setting really is no where near accepting that you are in the wrong.
In terms of a corporate all hands meeting, there are loads of reasons why someone may want to stay anonymous whilst asking questions.

 

[kristiang85]

I just want to pull up on this, because being anonomus in that setting really is no where near accepting that you are in the wrong.
In terms of a corporate all hands meeting, there are loads of reasons why someone may want to stay anonymous whilst asking questions.

Sorry, I clumsily worded it. Yes, there should be a space for people to bring up grievances without necessarily identifying themselves.

But in this case I personally feel it is akin to saying a disabled person can't come into the office - and that would obviously be met with outrage. I'm just hoping it isn't even considered.

Some people can't get vaccinated due to health reasons, and they don't have to disclose why. Some have other personal reasons. So I believe this kind of attitude to having your access to the working environment dependent on your vaccination status absolutely abhorrant, and against all the work we've been bombarded with in the past year about equal opportunities, fairness in the workplace and making it a safe environment for all.

 

[Darandio]

If i'd have started a thread on here only two years ago predicting a near future where very basic liberties have been removed and said the following......

The right of foreign travel to even the nearest neighbours potentially revoked unless you provide papers to prove you have been vaccinated. The right to pursue emplyoment in a certain sector revoked for the same reason. Basic rights to protest decimated.

If I said this the majority of you would have me carted off to the asylum for life. Yet now i'm seeing more and more people just accepting it all as if there is absolutely nothing wrong. What the hell happened? It's like some Beijing orchestrated mind control gas cloud experiment that has veered off course and settled over our country.

 

[jumble]

Should it happen it will almost certainly be for new starters and therefore would in no way be compulsory medical treatment. It would be a requirement of the job. If you don't want it don't apply.

You are championing discrimination against people who are unable to have the vaccine on medical grounds which I find abhorrent
I wonder if you and your family were faced with being able to eat or not you would take the same view.
It is also nonsense for you to claim that people do not have to apply as you know nothing about other peoples family circumstances especially members of my family who work in care
What do you think will happen next if there is a shortage of care workers because of such discrimination ?
I know for a fact that the vaccine requirements of some medical professions are on occasion quietly dropped because of shortage of qualified staff and the employer simply adapted.

 

[notlob.divad]

A fundamental cornerstone of western enlightenment is that a person is sovereign over their own body and medical interventions, and this is a red line.

Unless you are a woman living in Northern Ireland.

I was saddened to see on a recent all-staff virtual meeting in my place that someone anonymously asked if it could be mandated that those who want to return to the office get vaccinated.

The leadership team didn't answer that one, but I hope they take a sensible approach. But I don't like to think I'm working beside these kinds of people.

I am not sure what your problem is with this. From what you have written it is impossible for me to tell if:
a) the person was asking if it could be mandated, because they wanted it to be and wanted to push the organisation in that particular direction, or
b) the person was asking if it could be mandated, because they didn't want it to be and wanted to know if the organisation had the grounds to do so.

I am not sure how from what you have written you can make a judgement on 'these kind of people', asking the question is surely the best way to open up the debate so voices like your own and those you appear to disagree with can all be heard.

I seen a leaked letter to staff of a local care home to me, that the owner/operator was offering a 5% pay rise to all staff that took the vaccine, and a pay freeze for 2021 for those who didn’t.

Seems legitimate, if that is the cost saving for not having to provide the additional PPE that those who are not vaccinated will have to continue wearing.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

If you are a care worker and your potentially putting those you care for at risk then that's not acceptable either, and as has been already stated there are some people with medical conditions where they cannot have the vaccine, or they can have it but it may not be fully effective

I am against compulsory vaccination but certain jobs have certain requirements, and if in this case if you don't want to meet those requirements then perhaps you need to consider a different line of work. A bus driver who fails a medical may not be able to drive, and that's tough but potentially beyond that persons control, where as in this situation its up to you whether you want to meet the requirements of the job or not.

Well anyone in the medical world falls into that category and why stop at Covid better add in all diseases just in case.

The real issue that needs to be addressed is why there is a reluctance among care workers to receive the vaccine - at my clinic on Saturday people were absolutely delighted to have the opportunity to receive it and they will have completed all the cohorts by end of month at a 95%+ takeup. I know no one who hasn't taken it and know many sub 50 year old desperate to get it. So govt needs to deal with the root cause first not resort to strong arm tactics against the weaker members of the population. They aren't there servants anymore.

 

[kristiang85]

I am not sure what your problem is with this. From what you have written it is impossible for me to tell if:
a) the person was asking if it could be mandated, because they wanted it to be and wanted to push the organisation in that particular direction, or
b) the person was asking if it could be mandated, because they didn't want it to be and wanted to know if the organisation had the grounds to do so.

I am not sure how from what you have written you can make a judgement on 'these kind of people', asking the question is surely the best way to open up the debate so voices like your own and those you appear to disagree with can all be heard.

The question was asked in a way that clearly inferred they thought people shouldn't be allowed into the office unless they are vaccinated. As I said in my next post, I clarified my wording.

I am not against people bringing up legitimate concerns, but the wholesale discrimination against a subset of society is absolutely unacceptable, especially in my place where we are bombarded with equality paraphenalia at an almost distracting rate now.

It is basically legitimising a form of disability discrimination. I'm luckily personally not affected by it, but after all the strides made in our society this kind of thinking is a huge backward step, and I'm just worried it will be listened to and accepted by some organisations.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Some of the outraged people on this thread are the same people who for months championed the Great Barrington Declaration, the gist of which was protect the vulnerable and let the rest get on with it. Now an idea of how to protect the vulnerable has been mooted it has suddenly changed to you can’t do that, it’s a human rights violation.

If not this then how, exactly, can the most vulnerable be protected? Totally isolate them from all human contact so they can live out their final months in the most miserable, inhumane way possible?

 

[kristiang85]

Some of the outraged people on this thread are the same people who for months championed the Great Barrington Declaration, the gist of which was protect the vulnerable and let the rest get on with it. Now an idea of how to protect the vulnerable has been mooted it has suddenly changed to you can’t do that, it’s a human rights violation.

If not this then how, exactly, can the most vulnerable be protected? Totally isolate them from all human contact so they can live out their final months in the most miserable, inhumane way possible?

I don't see how this is related - the vulnerable will have been offered a vaccine. Some might not be able to have it for their own health reasons, but are they going to be excluded from care homes? Are family members who cannot be vaccinated going to be excluded from visiting? So therefore why should people lose thier livelihoods over it? More to the point, there is already a care staffing crisis, and this isn't going to help - thus the vulnerable lose out.

Haven't you realised that those in care homes have been isolated from their families for much of the past year, and many did live their final months in the most miserable, inhumane way possible due to lockdown rules? The average length of stay in a care home is 15 months, and obviously that usually ends with the death of the resident. So half of the care home population of January 2020 in the UK have probably passed without having much contact with any of their loved ones from that date. That's a scandal in itself that isn't being talked about much.

People were allowed to work in care homes - as far as I know - whether they had the flu vaccine or not. I'm pretty sure it wasn't a job requirement (though I'm happy to be corrected?). Yet the flu still kills off the vulnerable, and the vaccines' effictiveness was far lower than the COVID ones, so why should that change for COVID?

 

[Yew]

Is suspect for the odd visit they can put extra precautions in place, as per usual the anti will try scape the bottom of the barrel with reasons in order to justify the we do as we want position and never mind the potential impact on others.

So now we can't go and see granny unless we're vaccinated?

 

[Horizon22]

I don't see how this is related - the vulnerable will have been offered a vaccine. Some might not be able to have it for their own health reasons, but are they going to be excluded from care homes? Are family members who cannot be vaccinated going to be excluded from visiting? So therefore why should people lose thier livelihoods over it? More to the point, there is already a care staffing crisis, and this isn't going to help - thus the vulnerable lose out.

All offered a vaccine yes, but it's an issue of engagement - a significant percentage of care workers have not been vaccinated despite 100% of them being eligible. Now a small % might be unable, but the shortfall is primarily related to minority groups who are care workers who are sceptical of the vaccine (unfortunate and counter-intuitive but that's what it is). So it would be completely the wrong approach to then enforce it.

 

[Yew]

Some of the outraged people on this thread are the same people who for months championed the Great Barrington Declaration, the gist of which was protect the vulnerable and let the rest get on with it. Now an idea of how to protect the vulnerable has been mooted it has suddenly changed to you can’t do that, it’s a human rights violation.

`I can sense the straws being grasped at...

Surely you can see the difference between a strategy to protect the vulnerable whilst there isn't a vaccine, and the marginal gains from trying to protect the already vaccinated, by coercing people to undergo medical treatment.

 

[kristiang85]

All offered a vaccine yes, but it's an issue of engagement - a significant percentage of care workers have not been vaccinated despite 100% of them being eligible. Now a small % might be unable, but the shortfall is primarily related to minority groups who are care workers who are sceptical of the vaccine (unfortunate and counter-intuitive but that's what it is). So it would be completely the wrong approach to then enforce it.

Indeed. I find the lower uptake among some minority groups quite fascinating, but I haven't seen too much written about the reasons for it - maybe it can be a separate thread. But absolutely, the optics of a mandation that will naturally target certain groups would be terrible.

 

[37424]

So now we can't go and see granny unless we're vaccinated?

That's not what I said is it? the point is extra precautions might be needed in some cases, which should be possible to arrange for a visit, but are not practical for an everyday carer.

When carers were coming to the house to look after my dad all them that I met were happy to take the vaccine, but if any hadn't have been I would have requested that the care company didn't send that person, and if they refused I would have looked for another care company.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

People in care work are supposed to care for and protect the people they look after. It isn't unreasonable to expect those in such work to not kill people in their charge

This is a wildly inaccurate and scattergun statement. How do you explain a care worker who is unvaccinated is killing people in his/her care?

Utter tosh and more scare-mongering

 

[Yew]

This is a wildly inaccurate and scattergun statement. How do you explain a care worker who is unvaccinated is killing people in his/her care?

Utter tosh and more scare-mongering

Not taking action is now murder. These people have truly lost all perspective, and care only about their insane quest to 'defeat' a virus, all other costs are acceptable, regardless of magnitude.

 

[TheBeard]

Mandatory vaccines for Health Workers have long been a rational well tolerated thing. For example, hepatitis B is a highly contagious disease no worker would want to pass on to the vulnerable, and before vaccines carrying it meant curtailment of a career in the interest of public health. Don't see Covid is any different. They could leave if they don't want to protect the vulnerable. A wider issue is their very low pay, and the huge cost of care, and lack of profitability of Care Homes.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Not all vaccines are mandatory for all health workers. Certainly in some UK hospital settings, many vaccines are voluntary, although strongly encouraged.

If not this then how, exactly, can the most vulnerable be protected? Totally isolate them from all human contact so they can live out their final months in the most miserable, inhumane way possible?

For most people living in care homes, this is exactly how they will live out their days

 

[43096]

So western enlightenment says nothing about responsibility to others? If you are a care worker you should care about the people you look after. Needlessly putting their lives at risk isn’t caring. We’re not talking about brickies or mechanics but people who have prolonged close contact with vulnerable people. If you don't care don't go into care work.

So if the Government then mandates that everyone should be injected with an ID chip so they can use it as a Covid passport which will be read as you go into crowded indoor venues, airports, etc etc , you're OK with that?

 

[HSTEd]

Mandatory vaccines for Health Workers have long been a rational well tolerated thing. For example, hepatitis B is a highly contagious disease no worker would want to pass on to the vulnerable, and before vaccines carrying it meant curtailment of a career in the interest of public health. Don't see Covid is any different. They could leave if they don't want to protect the vulnerable. A wider issue is their very low pay, and the huge cost of care, and lack of profitability of Care Homes.

As far as I am aware, only surgeons are under any requirement to have a Hep B vaccine, and only before performing certain high risk procedures.

This requierment will expand the number of coerced people by several orders of magnitude.

Especially as it has now leaked that all healthcare staff will be under the same requirement