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May 2021 Timetable Change

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OFFDN

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I think it’s worth bearing in mind that in reaction to the pandemic the industry has moved to four timetable interventions a year, rather than two.

Timetable changes that were previously in May and December of each year will now be March, May, September and December.

The scope of each change will be reduced, and large scale changes will need approval, but I do think the slightly more frequent changes will give operators the ability to react better to medium term needs.
 
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newtownmgr

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I think it’s worth bearing in mind that in reaction to the pandemic the industry has moved to four timetable interventions a year, rather than two.

Timetable changes that were previously in May and December of each year will now be March, May, September and December.

The scope of each change will be reduced, and large scale changes will need approval, but I do think the slightly more frequent changes will give operators the ability to react better to medium term needs.
Don’t think that’s long term. That was in reaction to the various changes in lockdown/schools returning etc. should imagine it will be back to normal May/Dec if not this year then next year.
 

Bald Rick

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Don’t think that’s long term. That was in reaction to the various changes in lockdown/schools returning etc. should imagine it will be back to normal May/Dec if not this year then next year.

It’s this year, and probably next at least.
 

Class 466

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GA’s May Timetable is split dated in September, I expect only a few have been so organised to do this - most others are set through to December.
 

newtownmgr

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It’s this year, and probably next at least.
For train crew diagramming it’s been mentioned as May & Dec as normal for this year,with any additional services reinstated or indeed services cancelled depending on the situation dealt with under STP arrangements.
 

HamworthyGoods

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As December timetable change was an EU thing perhaps it should go back to early October ?

It makes planning International trains very difficult if we do that. Most non EU counties in Europe follow the same change date to keep things simple.
 

Austriantrain

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It makes planning International trains very difficult if we do that. Most non EU counties in Europe follow the same change date to keep things simple.

How many international trains would you need to coordinate apart from Eurostar, whose paths are basically set in stone anyway?;)

On the continent of course, having common timetable changeover dates is essential, whether countries are an EU member or not.
 

zwk500

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How many international trains would you need to coordinate apart from Eurostar, whose paths are basically set in stone anyway?;)

On the continent of course, having common timetable changeover dates is essential, whether countries are an EU member or not.
Freight through Dollands Moor, who's paths to Wembley are fixed by treaty. Also try timing HS1 domestic services to change at St Pancras without causing problems in Kent, or vice versa.

It makes sense to change Kent with HS1. As Eurostar and Chunnel freight is fixed, you have to go with the European dates. Given the level of interaction, it makes sense to change Sussex when Kent goes, and with Thameslink that brings in the ECML and MML in with them. etc, etc...
 

Ianno87

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Freight through Dollands Moor, who's paths to Wembley are fixed by treaty. Also try timing HS1 domestic services to change at St Pancras without causing problems in Kent, or vice versa.

It makes sense to change Kent with HS1. As Eurostar and Chunnel freight is fixed, you have to go with the European dates. Given the level of interaction, it makes sense to change Sussex when Kent goes, and with Thameslink that brings in the ECML and MML in with them. etc, etc...

I‘d argue what is the benefit of moving back to a September/ October change? The May/December changes are evenly spread across the year, for example.
 

zwk500

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I‘d argue what is the benefit of moving back to a September/ October change? The May/December changes are evenly spread across the year, for example.
I can see a September change justified, as holidays end and the start of a new academic year. Would also mean that NR didn't have to sort out a timetable change and major xmas/NY blockades in short order. However, if you shift to September you'd also shift the May change to March, and you'd be planning a timetable change at the same time as Easter.

There's never a good time to change timetables, so picking the same time as everybody else makes it a lot easier for NR.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Freight through Dollands Moor, who's paths to Wembley are fixed by treaty. Also try timing HS1 domestic services to change at St Pancras without causing problems in Kent, or vice versa.

It makes sense to change Kent with HS1. As Eurostar and Chunnel freight is fixed, you have to go with the European dates. Given the level of interaction, it makes sense to change Sussex when Kent goes, and with Thameslink that brings in the ECML and MML in with them. etc, etc...

"Local" yes - (if you can call Kent and HS1 "local" !) , do not buy the argument for the rest of the UK , particularly with a new timetable with changes coming in December - traditionally a time of awful weather and in the past the highest levels of passenger (commuter and off peak) traffics , ditto freight.

In any case - the levels of freight traffic out of Dollands Moor to the rest of the UK could be described as "modest" (I was considering other terms)

The ultra eagerness to fall into European decrees (partly based on SNCF ski train traffics ?) , can now be reviewed - there ought to be some savings within the UK.
 

zwk500

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"Local" yes - (if you can call Kent and HS1 "local" !) , do not buy the argument for the rest of the UK , particularly with a new timetable with changes coming in December - traditionally a time of awful weather and in the past the highest levels of passenger (commuter and off peak) traffics , ditto freight.

In any case - the levels of freight traffic out of Dollands Moor to the rest of the UK could be described as "modest" (I was considering other terms)
Fair points
The ultra eagerness to fall into European decrees (partly based on SNCF ski train traffics ?) , can now be reviewed - there ought to be some savings within the UK.
I've heard fairly authoritatively that for air travel the reason why the UK ends up following everybody else's lead on most of these regulations is that they turn up to the meetings and the UK doesn't. If it wasn't a big enough thing for us to object at the time, I doubt we're going to kick up a fuss about changing back now.
 

Peter0124

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How come May is always picked? Surely June and December would have been better as that means 6 months between the changes instead of 7 months and 5 months
 

PHILIPE

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How come May is always picked? Surely June and December would have been better as that means 6 months between the changes instead of 7 months and 5 months


May goes back historically as an appropriate start of the Summer holiday season kicking off and when there would be a seasonal increase in services to cater for such traffic. The Summer Timetable would then finish towards the end of September when the Winter Timetable would start. December came in to standardise with European Timetables.
 

dk1

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How come May is always picked? Surely June and December would have been better as that means 6 months between the changes instead of 7 months and 5 months
It always used to be mid-May & late-September but changed to mid-December so as to come in line with Europe.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Fair points

I've heard fairly authoritatively that for air travel the reason why the UK ends up following everybody else's lead on most of these regulations is that they turn up to the meetings and the UK doesn't. If it wasn't a big enough thing for us to object at the time, I doubt we're going to kick up a fuss about changing back now.

In a previous life ,I used to "do" the UK National Timetable Conference meetings (and a lot more of a lesser importance like the West Coast sessions !) , and in a different job a lot of the UIC and CER meetings in Paris , Frankfurt and so on. Very interesting sessions I have to say, and the British input was always welcomed and useful (I think !) - particularly after the "ash cloud" scenario. The UK protocol / contingency planning and means of communication with others (ferry and airlines) was taken on board very well with our "over the Channel" partners.

I was generally annoyed about having to toe the line on these mandatory TT changes foisted by European partners. I mentioned the French !

(some of the best work ever -was done in the National Timetable Conference meetings - a lot of honest and sometimes challenging debates , and the CER stands for "Community of European Railways" )

It always used to be mid-May & late-September but changed to mid-December so as to come in line with Europe.

See my comment. Does not apply now (says he in retirement !)
 

Jan Mayen

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I was under the impression that the timetable date changes were a UIC agreement, rather than EU. Am I wrong?
 

zwk500

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In a previous life ,I used to "do" the UK National Timetable Conference meetings (and a lot more of a lesser importance like the West Coast sessions !) , and in a different job a lot of the UIC and CER meetings in Paris , Frankfurt and so on. Very interesting sessions I have to say, and the British input was always welcomed and useful (I think !) - particularly after the "ash cloud" scenario. The UK protocol / contingency planning and means of communication with others (ferry and airlines) was taken on board very well with our "over the Channel" partners.

I was generally annoyed about having to toe the line on these mandatory TT changes foisted by European partners. I mentioned the French !

(some of the best work ever -was done in the National Timetable Conference meetings - a lot of honest and sometimes challenging debates , and the CER stands for "Community of European Railways" )
Really interesting read! And good to know that those sorts of industry sessions go on.
 

Austriantrain

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Freight through Dollands Moor, who's paths to Wembley are fixed by treaty. Also try timing HS1 domestic services to change at St Pancras without causing problems in Kent, or vice versa.

It makes sense to change Kent with HS1. As Eurostar and Chunnel freight is fixed, you have to go with the European dates. Given the level of interaction, it makes sense to change Sussex when Kent goes, and with Thameslink that brings in the ECML and MML in with them. etc, etc...

I thought Channel Tunnel paths are fixed and there is no real possibility to change them around? Then the Continental Timetable change wouldn’t matter. Do I have this wrong?
 

ChiefPlanner

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Really interesting read! And good to know that those sorts of industry sessions go on.

Well , they used to ! Cannot speak for the present day of course. Some of the best , undocumented sessions were done in a gentle stroll out of the conference , before the formal meetings , where a combination of common sense and practicality outwith "contractual issues" were frankly discussed , usually to good effect.

Not to say that some issues were a bit difficult and challenging. Compromise , in my view, is not a bad management tool.
 

zwk500

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I thought Channel Tunnel paths are fixed and there is no real possibility to change them around? Then the Continental Timetable change wouldn’t matter. Do I have this wrong?
I don't know for sure. I've certainly been told before that their times at the terminals are locked in, but I'm guessing that at some point in the almost-30 years since they've started to run at least some of them had to shift at one end or the other.
 

The Planner

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In a previous life ,I used to "do" the UK National Timetable Conference meetings (and a lot more of a lesser importance like the West Coast sessions !) , and in a different job a lot of the UIC and CER meetings in Paris , Frankfurt and so on. Very interesting sessions I have to say, and the British input was always welcomed and useful (I think !) - particularly after the "ash cloud" scenario. The UK protocol / contingency planning and means of communication with others (ferry and airlines) was taken on board very well with our "over the Channel" partners.

I was generally annoyed about having to toe the line on these mandatory TT changes foisted by European partners. I mentioned the French !

(some of the best work ever -was done in the National Timetable Conference meetings - a lot of honest and sometimes challenging debates , and the CER stands for "Community of European Railways" )

Well , they used to ! Cannot speak for the present day of course. Some of the best , undocumented sessions were done in a gentle stroll out of the conference , before the formal meetings , where a combination of common sense and practicality outwith "contractual issues" were frankly discussed , usually to good effect.

Not to say that some issues were a bit difficult and challenging. Compromise , in my view, is not a bad management tool.
Was going to say, arguments during the day and sorted out in the bar later on was the normal way of sorting the issues at those events!
 

theironroad

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It makes planning International trains very difficult if we do that. Most non EU counties in Europe follow the same change date to keep things simple.

Oh, it will definitely change then if Boris gets to know about it. Can't be doing the same thing as others in the brave new world, we've got blue passports don't you know....
 

Peregrine 4903

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The international freight paths have been sold to the rail freight corridor, so they can't really be tinkered with. Almost all of them don't run however.
 

Bald Rick

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Oh, it will definitely change then if Boris gets to know about it. Can't be doing the same thing as others in the brave new world, we've got blue passports don't you know....

Just wait till Nicola realises she can do something different in Scotland. Thinking about it, they already have realised...
 

PHILIPE

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Back to aspects of the Timetable, GWR have an interesting one which is that 2F05 0648 Exeter St Davids starts from Bristol TM at 0525 which indicates it will be a means of moving a Turbo from Bristol onto Exmouth to Paignton services
 

southern442

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Back to aspects of the Timetable, GWR have an interesting one which is that 2F05 0648 Exeter St Davids starts from Bristol TM at 0525 which indicates it will be a means of moving a Turbo from Bristol onto Exmouth to Paignton services
Will this be the first passenger working of a Turbo on the Devon locals?
 
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