Maybe a silly question.... Container Trains

[malc-c]

Apologies in advance if this seems a silly question, but do container trains do multiple drop offs or do they do single transit form distribution point to distribution point or port? The reason I ask is because you often see these trains running half empty, and with randomly spaced containers. I video's one today the 462N London Gateway Frghtliner to Leeds F.L.T. and when it passed me near Stevenage the back half of the train was empty wagons other than the odd container or two near the rear. As far as I can see on RTT it hadn't stopped since departing London Gateway. Or is it simply that there wasn't enough containers to fill the train, but then why have them sporadically placed rather than just load the first 10 of the 20 or so wagons ?

 

[berwicksfinest]

Not s silly question at all, I have worked M34 to East Midlands Gateway all week,

Basically its a shuttle service between East Mids and Felixstowe, just running between those 2 points.

we place the train in situ as Maritime want, and they strip and reload with boxes basically where they want, but logic dictates they don't want to run up and down the pad with boxes hanging from their reachstackers so its a case of easiest position to put on the train, sometimes its where boxes are stored, sometimes where the lorry stops and reachstacker physically is.

Sometime there just isn't the boxes to fill the service, sometimes there is. it changes per service

 

[3973EXL]

Terminals can basically load to suit working practice at the location, provided -

Gauge restrictions are complied with. High boxes on some routes have to be loaded to low floor wagons.

Loading Pattern is complied with. Dictates position of a box/boxes on a wagon by wagon type/weight of box/size of box (length).
EG. 3 x heavy 20' boxes may exceed GLW for a wagon, so, loading pattern may indicate only two are loaded, one at each end.
Weight combinations of a 20' & 40' boxes on a 60' platform wagon.

Should also add -

Any Dangerous Goods (DG) requirements.

 

[malc-c]

Many thanks guys, I have a better understanding now.

 

[Techniquest]

Many thanks guys, I have a better understanding now.

Until I read your thread, and the reply above yours, I had wondered that too. I also have a better understanding of how container trains are loaded now, it all seems so obvious!

 

[swt_passenger]

Another factor will be that the longest trains will be split in two while in the terminal, I think this was mentioned about Southampton maritime a few weeks ago. So they could theoretically load both halves partially side by side and then shunt the two halves together. What might be most efficient for the overhead gantry operation could well result in an odd looking load?

 

[M60lad]

Out of interest and something I've often wondered whenever I've seen container trains is what's actually in these containers that are being transported about? In particular what's in the ones being transported to/from Trafford Park?

 

[CW2]

Out of interest and something I've often wondered whenever I've seen container trains is what's actually in these containers that are being transported about? In particular what's in the ones being transported to/from Trafford Park?

You will find that people are understandably touchy about answering such questions in any detail, as theft from containers is not unknown.
Basically, any consumer goods (like all the stuff that is made in Asia / Far East / USA / Europe and gets imported by ship).
Foodstuffs (liquid and dry goods).
Chemicals (wet and dry) - usually - but not always - in tank containers
Components for industry (e.g. automotive parts, computer circuit boards)
In other words, just about anything you can fit into a container!

 

[AngelRoad]

Thanks everyone, what an interesting and illuminating thread which has answered some questions I often wondered about

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Loading container ships is a very complicated excercise , less so for trains. I have done very many of the latter back in the day.

Not all trains are fully loaded , but empty spaces do not mean no revenue , as some services are "contract services" and sometimes the contractee does not have traffic to send.(but they often managed to do so)

In an ideal world , part loaded trains would have the containers amalgamated , in one block , near the loco , - as that reduces wind resistance and improves aerodynamics and thus fuel consumption. Not always able to do it , so factors for loading would include container weight - not a great idea to put a very heavy 20ft box on one end of a wagon , and an empty box on the other. Always check wagon springs - the Dangerous / flammable goods which required seperation , vulnerable loads (often best put next to the loco and "blocked in" , and of course , the order in which boxes came up from the stacks would affect the loading patterns.

In terms of contents - anything and everything from semi-bulk to household removals , to containerised Rolls Royce cars (shipped from Crewe via Trafford Park) , to Tunnocks caramel wafers.

One item which amused me was vast quantities of Italian tinned tomatoes , which were always described as "fruit" (technically correct I suppose) , but they got some sort of freight rebate agreed in previous decades.

 

[Dunfanaghy Rd]

Out of interest and something I've often wondered whenever I've seen container trains is what's actually in these containers that are being transported about? In particular what's in the ones being transported to/from Trafford Park?

Unless it carries hazardous stickers the contents of any given container are usually unknown, at least to the guys on the ground. One exception was wine (I think) in bulk bags inside 20ft boxes, as there were warning stickers with instructions about opening the doors.
Theft from containers on trains was a problem, don't know if it still is. Best solution is to load boxes door to door, if poss. Any gap and the children are sent in to squeeze through.
Pat

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Unless it carries hazardous stickers the contents of any given container are usually unknown, at least to the guys on the ground. One exception was wine (I think) in bulk bags inside 20ft boxes, as there were warning stickers with instructions about opening the doors.
Theft from containers on trains was a problem, don't know if it still is. Best solution is to load boxes door to door, if poss. Any gap and the children are sent in to squeeze through.
Pat

In my day - theft could be a real problem , with certain "hot spots" - Gospel Oak ? Primrose Hill on the NLL , Woodgrange Park for anything coming up from Barking and Tilbury , but the masterclass of theft operations was the Garston area. Not unknown for trains waiting at signals to be immobilised by criminals who had some knowledge on how to do it. Not just in Merseyside.

The latter had things down to a very fine art , including access to train running information and knowledge of special workings. There was vigorous police action which greatly assisted. Ditto for car trains.

I recall an offer of 8 x 30ft French containers for Liverpool , which had side doors and were carrying cased brandy. It would have been fatal to send it to Garston , so they went to Trafford Park for onwards road delivery with every possible precaution taken. They got there safely.

Containers used to have consignment notes and a declaration of hazardous goods. A classic let off was to describe a load as "mixed groupage" (UN8989 from memory) ....the worst traffic to deal with was Octel , a traffic which is no longer needed. (basically liquid lead) , carbon black could be an awkward one. (as the containers were dedicated to this flow and could not be used for anything else) - bulk scotch was classed as flammable.

 

[Meerkat]

In an ideal world , part loaded trains would have the containers amalgamated , in one block , near the loco , - as that reduces wind resistance and improves aerodynamics and thus fuel consumption

The drag from randomly placed containers going at 75mph must be quite considerable! Will they have to do anything about this if they really go for faster speed?
I vaguely remember something about it being better to not have empty flats at the end of the train??

 

[TheSeeker]

I vaguely remember something about it being better to not have empty flats at the end of the train??

I was just thinking that I'd read the opposite somewhere. Cases in the US where containers were all to the rear of the train. The lighter empty wagons towards the loco were pulled off the track on a bend.

 

[BanburyBlue]

Slightly off topic, but I am always amazed watching container ships being loaded and unloaded at ports. There seem to be multiple cranes seemingly taking off and putting on containers. I guess it's all computerised these days, but how do the crane drivers know which containers to take off/put on, and where?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Slightly off topic, but I am always amazed watching container ships being loaded and unloaded at ports. There seem to be multiple cranes seemingly taking off and putting on containers. I guess it's all computerised these days, but how do the crane drivers know which containers to take off/put on, and where?

The logistics are carefully planned , - there are people who do container disposition plans according to all sorts of requirements - like HMC Borderforce or what ever they are called these days, reefers , empties and loaded etc etc.

I was just thinking that I'd read the opposite somewhere. Cases in the US where containers were all to the rear of the train. The lighter empty wagons towards the loco were pulled off the track on a bend.

There was a rear end collision on the WCML where a freight hit the back of a Freightliner under "caution" working arrangements - in the dark , with I think an unlit tail lamp - the rear wagons of the FLL were empty and it was considered had there been some containers on the rear , the driver might have seen the train earlier.

 

[6Gman]

In my day - theft could be a real problem , with certain "hot spots" - Gospel Oak ? Primrose Hill on the NLL , Woodgrange Park for anything coming up from Barking and Tilbury , but the masterclass of theft operations was the Garston area. Not unknown for trains waiting at signals to be immobilised by criminals who had some knowledge on how to do it. Not just in Merseyside.

The latter had things down to a very fine art , including access to train running information and knowledge of special workings. There was vigorous police action which greatly assisted. Ditto for car trains.

I recall an offer of 8 x 30ft French containers for Liverpool , which had side doors and were carrying cased brandy. It would have been fatal to send it to Garston , so they went to Trafford Park for onwards road delivery with every possible precaution taken. They got there safely.

Containers used to have consignment notes and a declaration of hazardous goods. A classic let off was to describe a load as "mixed groupage" (UN8989 from memory) ....the worst traffic to deal with was Octel , a traffic which is no longer needed. (basically liquid lead) , carbon black could be an awkward one. (as the containers were dedicated to this flow and could not be used for anything else) - bulk scotch was classed as flammable.

I do recall having to reroute a car train to avoid reversal at Garston (1980s) in the hope that some might actually reach their destination in a largely complete state!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I was just thinking that I'd read the opposite somewhere. Cases in the US where containers were all to the rear of the train. The lighter empty wagons towards the loco were pulled off the track on a bend.

I've read something similar I think. Also read that in the US where freight trains can be extremely long, it was considered unsafe to have every single wagon loaded, so empty wagons were spaced every 10 wagons or so- to avoid derailments on tight curves. This could well be nonsense though.

 

[James284]

Do the tesco ‘less co2’ containers only carry tesco products going to shops

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think we can look forward to some of the containers on the Ever Given (the ship which ran aground in the Suez Canal in March) reaching UK ports soon.
The ship has just been released after paying a fine for the event, and is carrying 18 300 containers for Europe (Rotterdam).
A lot of goods from the far east will have been delayed some 106 days en route.
I can't remember what the UK limit is for number of containers on a train, but if it is say 50, that's 360-train loads-worth on one ship!

 

[Watershed]

I think we can look forward to some of the containers on the Ever Given (the ship which ran aground in the Suez Canal in March) reaching UK ports soon.
The ship has just been released after paying a fine for the event, and is carrying 18 300 containers for Europe (Rotterdam).
A lot of goods from the far east will have been delayed some 106 days en route.
I can't remember what the UK limit is for number of containers on a train, but if it is say 50, that's 360-train loads-worth on one ship!

The longest trains are now up to 775m long (although these are only on a limited number of flows where loops and pathing allow).

Most container trains tend to be anything up to 35-40 wagons long.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The longest trains are now up to 775m long (although these are only on a limited number of flows where loops and pathing allow).
Most container trains tend to be anything up to 35-40 wagons long.

From this you can see the economic value of mile-long double-stack container trains in the US/Canada, on a 1500+ mile transit from West Coast ports to Chicago and beyond.

 

[CW2]

Back in the day (say 1980s) Freightliner trains ran in fixed formations of 5-sets, so a train might be 5/10/15/20/or 25 wagons long. Exceptionally, there were some 30-wagon workings. Then there were a few exceptions, like workings in Scotland with one or two boxes being conveyed on passenger or freight services. A Freightliner sub-fleet of individual Tiphook wagons was used on such flows. By the time the CHannel Tunnel opened in 1994 the concept of swapbody containers was in vogue, so the vehicles purchased to launch the intermodal services via the Channel Tunnel were Multifret twins, with a lower platform height (945 mm prings a bell) to allow these overheight units to be conveyed on routes where they wouldn't fit on normal wagons. This was at the expense of limiting the length of the loading platform, so you could fir a 20 foot + 30 foot together on a platform, but not 20 foot + 40 foot any more. So increasing the height of containers resulted in a worse loading factor on the trains. The Multifret wagons were also unusual in having three different speed bands, according to how heavily laden the platform was. I can't recall the precise details offhand, but it was something like:
Up to 14 tonnes gross axle load = 140 kph
Up to 17 tonnes gross axle load = 120 kph
Up to 19 tonnes gross axle load = 100 kph
So it was a very versatile wagon, adaptable to different circumstances, but ultimately the sheer productivity of an old fashioned Freightliner service with 40 foot + 20 foot boxes on each wagon cannot be surpassed (in this country).

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

Do the tesco ‘less co2’ containers only carry tesco products going to shops

And what, if anything, do they carry on the way back?
..
I imagine quite a lot of containers are empty, not so much is exported to the far east.

 

[hwl]

I think we can look forward to some of the containers on the Ever Given (the ship which ran aground in the Suez Canal in March) reaching UK ports soon.
The ship has just been released after paying a fine for the event, and is carrying 18 300 containers for Europe (Rotterdam).
A lot of goods from the far east will have been delayed some 106 days en route.
I can't remember what the UK limit is for number of containers on a train, but if it is say 50, that's 360-train loads-worth on one ship!

Rotterdam 1st stop, Felixstowe 2nd stop, (then back to far east was the original plan) lots of UK bound goods on there.
Most container ships do at least 2 channel / north sea port stops.
18300 TEU (Twenty foot equivalent units) which given most are 40' is about 10,000-11,000 in total.

110 TEU is about the UK train limit

 

[DelW]

I was just thinking that I'd read the opposite somewhere. Cases in the US where containers were all to the rear of the train. The lighter empty wagons towards the loco were pulled off the track on a bend.

There were a couple of cases like that on Horseshoe Curve in Pennsylvania a year or two ago. A number of wagon bodies (less bogies) were left alongside the tracks within view of a webcam for some months until a full track closure allowed their recovery.

From this you can see the economic value of mile-long double-stack container trains in the US/Canada, on a 1500+ mile transit from West Coast ports to Chicago and beyond.

A mile long counts as short on US transcontinental stack trains - two to three miles long is routine, usually with distributed power at mid-train or rear, or occasionally both. That's around six to eight 4000+ hp locos on one train.

 

[edwin_m]

Back in the day (say 1980s) Freightliner trains ran in fixed formations of 5-sets, so a train might be 5/10/15/20/or 25 wagons long. Exceptionally, there were some 30-wagon workings. Then there were a few exceptions, like workings in Scotland with one or two boxes being conveyed on passenger or freight services. A Freightliner sub-fleet of individual Tiphook wagons was used on such flows. By the time the CHannel Tunnel opened in 1994 the concept of swapbody containers was in vogue, so the vehicles purchased to launch the intermodal services via the Channel Tunnel were Multifret twins, with a lower platform height (945 mm prings a bell) to allow these overheight units to be conveyed on routes where they wouldn't fit on normal wagons. This was at the expense of limiting the length of the loading platform, so you could fir a 20 foot + 30 foot together on a platform, but not 20 foot + 40 foot any more. So increasing the height of containers resulted in a worse loading factor on the trains. The Multifret wagons were also unusual in having three different speed bands, according to how heavily laden the platform was. I can't recall the precise details offhand, but it was something like:
Up to 14 tonnes gross axle load = 140 kph
Up to 17 tonnes gross axle load = 120 kph
Up to 19 tonnes gross axle load = 100 kph
So it was a very versatile wagon, adaptable to different circumstances, but ultimately the sheer productivity of an old fashioned Freightliner service with 40 foot + 20 foot boxes on each wagon cannot be surpassed (in this country).

However, the ratio of 40ft to 20ft containers is now much greater than 1:1, so some newer wagons are only 40ft long to avoid the wasted space when a 40ft is carried on a 60ft wagon and there is no 20ft to go with it. There are also 45ft containers in use internationally, but I don't think they're legal on roads in the UK so unlikely to be seen on rail even if they do fit.

From this you can see the economic value of mile-long double-stack container trains in the US/Canada, on a 1500+ mile transit from West Coast ports to Chicago and beyond.

There's a correlation between the length of the run and the capacity of the train. On that sort of journey it's probably OK for the container to sit around for a bit until there are enough to load a train of that size, and the combination of higher speed and lower price on the trunk haul still beats road transit. Even if we could accommodate that sort of train in the UK it's fairly unlikely there would be much demand for it, as the lower service frequency would lengthen average transit times.

There were a couple of cases like that on Horseshoe Curve in Pennsylvania a year or two ago. A number of wagon bodies (less bogies) were left alongside the tracks within view of a webcam for some months until a full track closure allowed their recovery.

Known as stringlining. There's a horseshoe curve in northern California where the line towards Oregon doubles back over a river to gain height by backtracking up a valley, where a similar incident dumped a tanker of toxic chemicals into the watercourse and killed all the fish for many miles dowstream. It now has a sturdy crash barrier built round the inside of the curve in case that happens again.

 

[GB]

45ft containers are carried on uk rail. Rarer than 40fts but not as rare as 30fts or 9’6 20fts.

 

[themiller]

I think that most containers on the Tesco trains (at least those through Carlisle) are 45’. A couple of years ago I even saw a 50’ container on a northbound service(again through Carlisle).

 

[DBS92042]

45ft containers are carried on uk rail. Rarer than 40fts but not as rare as 30fts or 9’6 20fts.

I've started seeing more of the 9'6 20ft boxes but as you say, they're still rare. I think 30ft containers are pretty much gone from regular intermodal traffic these days.

I think that most containers on the Tesco trains (at least those through Carlisle) are 45’. A couple of years ago I even saw a 50’ container on a northbound service(again through Carlisle).

Malcolm have a few 50' containers but they're the only company in the UK that I've seen using them. Tesco/Stobart, Russell and Malcolm all use 45' containers and pretty much all of these 45ft containers go to/from Daventry International Rail Freight Terminal.