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Metrolink coming to Bolton (?) - Shapps

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Howardh

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Can you a name county in the south east that doesn’t have a least one if not two of the following, train, tram or underground line between its three largest towns? Why should we put up with it Imagine the tube in London without it’s circular lines.
Try commuting to Bury regularly by bus. Most mornings it takes an hour and a half sometimes two hours on the two buses I catch from Bolton. The distance is less than nine miles door to door. The odd morning it goes as it should then you’ve an hour to kill.
The new bus station is smaller than the old one, can’t cope with the volume of buses and is a waste of money.
And the new bus station is still some distance from the station, a good 3 minute walk across the bridge!
I would love to have the old Bolton- Bury rail line back, but to me there's now too much in the way, new builds would have to be demoloshed as well as businesses around Burnden to get the train into Trinity Street, so i think heavy rail is out of the question. A tram could street-run from Burnden to the town centre and along other parts too, but would be winding around the new builds if not demolished.
So to me the ideal solution is a dedicated bus route along as much of the old path as possible, and road-running where it isn't, so from Manchester Road, over the bridge at Burnden, and road-run where necessary but use as much of the old pathway as possible. Might be the cheapest option too.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Can you a name county in the south east that doesn’t have a least one if not two of the following, train, tram or underground line between its three largest towns?

Buckinghamshire for one, at least before EWR is completed. People have this impression that the SE is some utopia of trains every 10 minutes from everywhere to everywhere - it's nothing like that - it's all geared up around getting people to London. Even the bus services between settlements can be decidedly patchy. The North West has a far more web-like network as there are multiple key destinations.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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On Bolton and Atherton we will still have to see what comes out of the Manchester North West Quadrant Highways study which found that more light rail was needed in the area to deal with road congestion as they couldnt simply build their way out of the congestion using roads alone. Consultation on the road elements was due in summer this year which should include some details of the other modelling.

A point very well made.
 

Ianno87

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A point very well made.

The daily congestion on the East Lancs Rd every day suggests that the public transport network as it stands is not providing the attractive altermative to the car it should do. I think in particular access to employment on the south side of the city via Mancunian Way.

A couple of friends were looking to move to the south side of Leigh for a daily commute towards Manchester. I tried to get them to consider the road congestion every day...but public transport was a pretty hard 'sell' as an alternative!
 

boltontopcat

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And the new bus station is still some distance from the station, a good 3 minute walk across the bridge!
I would love to have the old Bolton- Bury rail line back, but to me there's now too much in the way, new builds would have to be demoloshed as well as businesses around Burnden to get the train into Trinity Street, so i think heavy rail is out of the question. A tram could street-run from Burnden to the town centre and along other parts too, but would be winding around the new builds if not demolished.
So to me the ideal solution is a dedicated bus route along as much of the old path as possible, and road-running where it isn't, so from Manchester Road, over the bridge at Burnden, and road-run where necessary but use as much of the old pathway as possible. Might be the cheapest option too.
Even if a bus route was a cheaper solution it would be a waste of time. Firstly as you divert on to the road you’d probably come across another building. Secondly once the bus is on the road it would just be held up in traffic jams. Surely it would be better just to have a National Express type coach going from Bolton to Bury on the road having one or two pick up points on the way? It would be an improvement on just the 471 524 511 etc because these buses are trying perform the function of a train or tram as well as a local regular stopping bus. An express coach can’t do this as quickly as a train or tram through.
So let’s just restore this corridor right through to Heywood Rochdale as well if funding allows.
In any case every motorway or heavy/light railway that has ever been built involves knocking something down even if it’s on a disused corridor. For example the Croydon Tramlink was built mostly on a former railway corridor. New buildings that couldn’t be got round very easily were simply demolished.
I think it would be possible to get through or round the Burden industrial estate and the Bradley fold estate knocking little or nothing down any way.
However if not these buildings will have to be CPOd and demolished.
If people are successful in stopping the Bolton Bury Metrolink bid, the money that the government has made available for reusing old railway corridors will be used some where else by the Mayor (he has the power to over rule it transport is devolved ) eg Bury Rochdale, Leigh (a particularly deserving case with no station at all) to walkden or Eccles, Stockport Ashton etc. For the ones that are successful it will be inevitable that some houses etc will have to be dropped. If you buy a house on a formal railway corridor you run the risk this may happen one day.
If the whole idea of reusing railway corridors is abandoned because of government U turn or local opposition one of the alternatives that has been mooted in the past is a second obital (inner) motor way. Just how many houses etc will they knock down then? It will also be a lot more expensive. That’s before we start on how Greater Manchester is going to make its contribution to the UK’s emission reduction targets.
 

Wtloild

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Howardh

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Depends how wide an area the orbital route is. How about one that will serve both Affetside and Doffcocker?.....:)
I remember the old No11 circular bus!! Anyhow, the south/southwest side of town needs much better links, and I reckon the money should be spent on a busway using the old rail links wherever possible to link that side up with the current route; or for trams and somehow likn up at Eccles.
 

boltontopcat

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Both the Croydon and the Metrolink trams are closely based on those supplied to Cologne, which unusually has some high and some low floor routes. I haven't tried the seats there myself but on a quick image search they look pretty similar.
That’s because they are similar. The main difference between the two trams is the height of the doors
That’s not the point - when the time comes to renew the rolling stock on the south east commuter lines into London, I doubt it will be with trams with seating of this spec. Not like it has already been on some northwest commuter lines into Manchester, and is being suggested as an ‘upgrade’ on the the Atherton line. (Full heavy rail electricfication is what that line needs right though to Southport if the lines going follow the same route.)
The CR4000s may not have the most comfortable seats, but Tramlink is a considerable upgrade on an empty rail corridor which what was there before. However an empty corridor is what Bolton/Bury (which is what this link’s about) still has.
 

Chester1

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That’s because they are similar. The main difference between the two trams is the height of the doors
That’s not the point - when the time comes to renew the rolling stock on the south east commuter lines into London, I doubt it will be with trams with seating of this spec. Not like it has already been on some northwest commuter lines into Manchester, and is being suggested as an ‘upgrade’ on the the Atherton line. (Full heavy rail electricfication is what that line needs right though to Southport if the lines going follow the same route.)
The CR4000s may not have the most comfortable seats, but Tramlink is a considerable upgrade on an empty rail corridor which what was there before. However an empty corridor is what Bolton/Bury (which is what this link’s about) still has.

I went on a trip to Edinburgh ages ago and was impressed by their tram seats. They are significantly more comfortable than than Metrolink seats. I wouldn't want to spend much more than half an hour on them though. Wigan to Manchester is too far for Metrolink for a true service (as opposed to Bury - Altrincham which is really two services put together for convenience).
 

WatcherZero

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If such a line did materialise the purpose wouldnt be end to journeys as there would be two alternative faster heavy rail routes remaining (three if they are smart and include a service on the Manchester-Scotland HS2 link) journey time would probably be same as diesel with electric acceleration and shorter dwell times offsetting additional stops, but to serve the communities in between. Similar to the Airport and Rochdale lines.

Sadly the decline in seat padding and comfort is directly proportional to the ever increasing fire ignition resistance time requirements.
 

Johnny de Riva

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First time post on here, referred by a friend who makes an occasional contribution . . .

It so happens that last summer, for nostalgic reasons I re-visited a spot which has haunted my memory since 1973, when I caught a fleeting glimpse of what I now know to have been the remains of Bradley Fold Station. That ephemeral vision stayed with me down the years, because although clearly derelict, the station still had all its trappings, and the whole scene had remained weird and strange in my recollection, gathering mystery as the decades went by.

When at last I returned to seek out the spot 46 years later in July 2019, I realised that it had actually been part of the ill-fated Picc-Vic metro project, announced in 1970 and cancelled in 1977. So it turned out that I had touched Bradley Fold in the middle of its seven years in limbo, before the station finally went to Jesus - no wonder it had seemed like a strange apparition!

Anyway, as a result I ended up walking the whole line from Bolton to Radcliffe, never suspecting in a million years that it could ever come back to life, but as a life-long tram enthusiast my thoughts, as ever, turned to possibilities and chewed them over . . .

So imagine my surprise when only a few weeks after that, restoration of the line and its associated branch to Bury actually became part of the Tories’ General Election blurb!

Here’s a link to my photo-study on SkyScraperCity (beware, it’s a lengthy piece!) :-

https://www.skyscrapercity.com/thre...sport-pictures.2072821/page-19#post-162250590

I hope they do resurrect this line – the MP for Bolton NE Mark Logan and Council Leader David Greenhalgh are currently lobbying for it. After my admittedly amateur on-the-ground survey, my conclusions were :-
  1. A tramway could deviate around certain overbuilt sections, notably through Little Lever, and areas around Ainsworth Road, Radcliffe Black Lane.
  2. If these are not possible, CPOs and demolitions would only amount to a very small fraction of those which occurred, for example, during the building of the Metrolink East Manchester Line.
  3. Caveat emptor! Never buy property these days on an old railway . . .
Cheers, Johnny de Rivative
 

Hey 3

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It amazes me just how many people don't know what HS2 is for. Its primary purpose is to relieve capacity on the south WCML. Therefore, Phase 1 (London-Brum) is by far the most important bit to get built first.
Excatly

Have you ever travelled on the Leigh Guided Busway V1 service from Leigh bus station to Ellenbrook that was mainly the old rail route from and made note of the modern double-decker service provision. There are only certain well-placed stops that all serve communities and the buses reach quite a good speed on this section.

For those who still have aspirations for a heavy rail station in Leigh, where in the town centre do you envisage this to be or do you favour a parkway station in an out-of-town area. How much would it cost for the actual new Leigh station complex, plus signalling and trackwork needed to connect to a heavy rail line?

Remember those RMT strike days when local rail services did not offer a reasonable service provision, but the V1 service on the Leigh Guided Busway still provided a service provision at intervals that only "service down south" seem to accept as the norm.
I think the station should be in Pennington(SW of the Lowton bypass/St Helens Rd Jn) or at thr Ellesmere suite right next to the bus station

Excatly


I think the station should be in Pennington(SW of the Lowton bypass/St Helens Rd Jn) or at thr Ellesmere suite right next to the bus station
Also with a stop at Pennington

The biggest issue with Bury is it doesn't have any direct rail transport links with it's two direct neighbours Bolton & Rochdale. Although it is home to the East Lancashire heritage railway - it doesn't have a dedicated traditional railway station.

Bury was actually one of the first locations to benefit from the Metrolink when it's first phase opened in 1992.

Anyone relying on public transport living in Bury generally has to make do with the bus services if they are going anywhere other than along the Metrolink corridor into Manchester Victoria.

Leigh is another town suffering from lack of rail links - it's train station closed in 1964. Leigh's biggest issue was being swollowed up by Wigan Borough following the alightment of the council boundaries in the 1970s. Leigh has become like the poorly treated cousin with all key services and investment being steered towards Wigan.

Leigh did benefit from the construction of a multi million pound busway connecting the town centre with central Manchester a few years ago which has improved transport links with the town.

Like I said previously I can't see anywhere else in the Greater Manchester region getting access to further Metrolink extensions given the financial devastation caused by the Covid19 crisis.

CJ
Its last train station closed in 1969

Come to Cambridge to see how well they can work (I'd still prefer a tram, of course...)
Buses are a short term solution. Trains/trams are long term solutions
 
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Trackman

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  1. A tramway could deviate around certain overbuilt sections, notably through Little Lever, and areas around Ainsworth Road, Radcliffe Black Lane.
  2. If these are not possible, CPOs and demolitions would only amount to a very small fraction of those which occurred, for example, during the building of the Metrolink East Manchester Line.
  3. Caveat emptor! Never buy property these days on an old railway . . .
Cheers, Johnny de Rivative

Great read, just been looking through the photos.
Did you see the double track still in situ in the woods near Radcliffe?
Apparently it was left there deliberately because of something to do with the earthing on the old Bury DC system. Anyway, it was there 6 months ago.
Here's a recent photo with permission: (click for bigger)
radcliffe.jpg

As for the tram idea, the consensus is that the bus would be quicker and even more so if they resurrected the fabled 'Trans Lancs Express' bus service which was actually introduced because of the closure of the line.
Anyway, Bury council don't seem too that bothered about it, they are spending 600k on expanding the bridle-way in the Radcliffe/Bury area.
 
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Mag_seven

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A reminder that this thread is for the discussion of the Metrolink coming to Bolton. I have had to delete some off topic posts that were discussing HS2.

thanks
 

raetiamann

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The RAIL magazine has tweeted today that the South Yorkshire tram/rain will continue and that new routes will be proposed, so possibily linking Bolton to Bury?
 

johnnychips

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I think reatiamann means new tram-train routes, not new SY routes.
Yes, I knew exactly what he meant, but if you read it in a different way...

Before all this CV kicked off the SY tram-train seemed to be doing quite well. A lot of people moaned that it was massively over budget, but it was an experiment. Hopefully any lessons learned will mean a tram-train in Greater Manchester will be a lot cheaper.

One daft thing here: you can’t use return rail tickets from Sheffield on the tram-train.
 

ic31420

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The train/bus station link is and feels like an afterthought. It's like a trip down an hoover pipe.

The building of Bolton Station Carpark seems to have stalled after the site clearance. As it stands it's a pain to park and use the station. I have a forthcoming trip to Lancaster and would love to drive from Bury area to hop on the tpx train to Lancaster.
But it's just not practical at the moment
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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The train/bus station link is and feels like an afterthought. It's like a trip down an hoover pipe.

My good lady wife and I, both in our 70s, find the new link between the train station and the new bus station to be excellent, being under cover and having a lift to two levels of the bus station. We both have none-too-happy memories of the long walk to the old bus station, especially in times of inclement weather.
 

ic31420

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Don't get me wrong it is a vast improvement on that arrangement. I was always fortunate with the old arrangements my bus stopped at the interchange outside the train station.

I just think it feels temporary and naff as a tacked on afterthought. I'm pretty sure it wasnt in the original plans for the new bus station and was added on late in the build planning following criticism.

I think it'll look awful in 10-15 years time.

Anyway we're getting off topic and that is frowned up on here.
 

Trackman

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The train/bus station link is and feels like an afterthought. It's like a trip down an hoover pipe.

The building of Bolton Station Carpark seems to have stalled after the site clearance. As it stands it's a pain to park and use the station. I have a forthcoming trip to Lancaster and would love to drive from Bury area to hop on the tpx train to Lancaster.
But it's just not practical at the moment
Do you mean the old RRB?
The council have halted work as they are not happy with the plans.

Keeping on OT, DafT have released a video this week featuring the proposed Bolton-Radcliffe train link.
Check it out, and stop it on the map.
Radcliffe appears to have moved, and gawd knows what is going on in Blackpool!
 

Ianno87

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Don't get me wrong it is a vast improvement on that arrangement. I was always fortunate with the old arrangements my bus stopped at the interchange outside the train station.

I just think it feels temporary and naff as a tacked on afterthought. I'm pretty sure it wasnt in the original plans for the new bus station and was added on late in the build planning following criticism.

I think it'll look awful in 10-15 years time.

Anyway we're getting off topic and that is frowned up on here.

It's not really obvious where else is big enough nearby for the bus station to have gone. Its location fills anotherwise bit of "dead" land (previously a surface car park) in the former railway triangle, and gives a good town-centre facing exit for passengers. A vast improvement over the old walk to Moor Lane.
 

geoffk

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Brislington? I assume he means St. Annes Park, which is fairly near, not reopening the North Somerset line, much of which has been built over. It would have been useful as far as Whitchurch as a light rail line if the right of way had been protected, but too late now.
 
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