Mistakes you made as a trainee

[scotraildriver]

Not buying the manager a coffee at the start of passing out day.

 

[Stigy]

Is that like as a local instruction or as a rule? It's not something I've come across yet, but then I am only PQ to be fair .

It’ll be a local instruction (which I case is a rule in it’s own right?) as there’s no Rulebook rules for it. It may be in the TOC’s ARB I guess, if it relates to a few locations?

 

[DunfordBridge]

What is an ARB @Stigy?

 

[Stigy]

What is an ARB @Stigy?

Appendix to the Rulebook. It’s a TOC/FOCs own addition to the rules where they wish to make certain rules more more restrictive than the RSSB Rulebook.

 

[DunfordBridge]

First I knew, not like the Sectional Appendix which applies to all TOCs, or at least TOCs operating in the same particular region.

 

[Stigy]

First I knew, not like the Sectional Appendix which applies to all TOCs, or at least TOCs operating in the same particular region.

Maybe not all TOCs have one? I kind of just assumed they did to be honest, as it made sense. It’s generally more specific to the Rulebook than the Sectional Appendix.

 

[387star]

At Coulsdon South I often waited for at least a double yellow before moving as the wait is for stoats nest junction where you can see the train you're waiting for passing before proceeding

 

[DunfordBridge]

Maybe not all TOCs have one? I kind of just assumed they did to be honest, as it made sense. It’s generally more specific to the Rulebook than the Sectional Appendix.

Your post was of interest though because I know you have had dealings with both SWR and now GWR. I was thinking about the sectional appendix because @Jlob2804 mentioned something about local instructions a few posts upstream.

 

[djack123son]

Not putting the brake handle into emergency during static fault finding.. embarrassing and led to me losing my trainee driver position.. back as a guard, but not the same obviously.

 

[OneLowban]

I almost left my key in when completing a journey where another driver takes it on from the other end

I was in the same situation on my final pass out, I took my key out but left the brake in emergency as if the driver was taking over in the same direction.

Didn’t realise until the shunt driver couldn’t get the brakes off. Luckily it was almost midnight so didn’t cause any delays and we just laughed about it but I learned that day!

 

[WestRiding]

As a non driver, can I ask, is it against the rules to start off with a single yellow, or just considered bad practice, as best to wait till you can get going without the immediate prospect of having to stop (and perhaps blocking crossings)?

Its not a Rule. Single Yellow is a proceed aspect. Often happens at Sheffield out of the station, particularly going South. Only had one EMR driver complain about 'unsafe signalling practices'. I asked him if he was unsure of working his train in a safe manor. That wrapped up that conversation.

 

[ComUtoR]

Its not a Rule. Single Yellow is a proceed aspect. Often happens at Sheffield out of the station, particularly going South. Only had one EMR driver complain about 'unsafe signalling practices'. I asked him if he was unsure of working his train in a safe manor. That wrapped up that conversation.

So you decided to shame the Driver instead of taking his concerns onboard and addressing them in a professional manner ? SOY SPADs are a well known and documented risk.

 

[WestRiding]

So you decided to shame the Driver instead of taking his concerns onboard and addressing them in a professional manner ? SOY SPADs are a well known and documented risk.

Taking concerns on board, went out the window when he accused me of unsafe signalling practice, and his attitude really didn't help, telling me that I 'should not be departing trains on a single yellow, its dangerous'. The correct signalling sequence was given. Getting a single yellow South out of 1, 2, 2c and 5 into B tunnel is an every day occurrance since 1973 and should be part of said route learning. And it was dealt with professionally at the time. Obviously the conversation was longer, and included asking the driver if he had received an incorrect sequence. Filling out a RT3185 was offered.

 

[ComUtoR]

We all know it happens. Some of us know the ins and outs of the signalling system, most don't. Departing on single yellows leads to incidents, it is understandable why Drivers see it as 'dangerous' The railways is better served by people sharing knowledge and understanding rather than the constant bickering between grades.

Challenging the box should be encouraged and other than the few times where I've had crappy responses from the Sig, most have been gratefull I've challenged something. During a couple of box visits I've been given insight as to why I get signalled a certain way. The industry working together is what we need to aim for.

 

[WestRiding]

We all know it happens. Some of us know the ins and outs of the signalling system, most don't. Departing on single yellows leads to incidents, it is understandable why Drivers see it as 'dangerous' The railways is better served by people sharing knowledge and understanding rather than the constant bickering between grades.

Challenging the box should be encouraged and other than the few times where I've had crappy responses from the Sig, most have been gratefull I've challenged something. During a couple of box visits I've been given insight as to why I get signalled a certain way. The industry working together is what we need to aim for.

I agree. If it is in a friendly way. I would not tell a driver how to drive his train. I do not expect a driver to tell me how to signal. Which he did with the 'you should not'. He didn't ask why, he told me.

 

[ComUtoR]

As I said, most Drivers don't understand the intracises of the signalling system. All I have been taught is 2Y 1Y R and you get a Red because the section ahead is occupied. It took me a good 10yrs to finally understand what is actually going on. We still teach that approach control doesnt exist :/

Both sides get frustrated with each other, thats the nature of the job unfortunately.

I've had the road go back on me on many occasions. Suffice to say at times I have been rather upset and considerably angry. Those conversations haven't been always friendly or professional. When the Sig gives you a wrong route it can really mess up your day. Again, you can understand why Drivers get a little short at times. Mistakes happen on both sides. Somedays you sit there and stare at that single yellow with a clear road behind it and you just think to yourself 'pull the £%£"% road'

I'm not excusing the Drivers behaviour and again, both sides need to understand each other a little better. Even with all the knowledge I have I still get frustrated with the signalling system and yes, I get frustrated with the person sitting in the warm in feeding the fish instead of giving me the road.

 

[MistaMatthews]

Not putting the brake handle into emergency during static fault finding.. embarrassing and led to me losing my trainee driver position.. back as a guard, but not the same obviously.

Can you explain a bit more about this to someone who’s not a driver. Did you have an instructor with you?

 

[LCC106]

I'm a bit surprised this ended your training. Just illustrates the "hard job to get, easy job to lose" I mentioned before.

 

[choochoochoo]

Can you explain a bit more about this to someone who’s not a driver. Did you have an instructor with you?

I'm curious about this too. I'd understand if it was during an assessed practical assessment on a Traction Course, but if you're with your driving instructor, it seems very harsh.

I'll be honest and say the only time i remember being told to put the brake into emergency is if you're stepping in front/behind your train or you're investigating a brake fault. Maybe it's traction specific, but the rest of the time, full service brake and key out seems sufficient.

 

[dctraindriver]

I'm curious about this too. I'd understand if it was during an assessed practical assessment on a Traction Course, but if you're with your driving instructor, it seems very harsh.

I'll be honest and say the only time i remember being told to put the brake into emergency is if you're stepping in front/behind your train or you're investigating a brake fault. Maybe it's traction specific, but the rest of the time, full service brake and key out seems sufficient.

From memory part of your traction course is to isolate a dragging brake as part of your assessment. If memory serves you need to put into emergency otherwise the train could potentially roll. I know of a couple of drivers who didn’t pass traction thus did not continue on the course.

 

[Stigy]

From memory part of your traction course is to isolate a dragging brake as part of your assessment. If memory serves you need to put into emergency otherwise the train could potentially roll. I know of a couple of drivers who didn’t pass traction thus did not continue on the course.

Seems very harsh to fail on that alone....maybe other factors leading up to it? Attitude etc?

 

[djack123son]

Can you explain a bit more about this to someone who’s not a driver. Did you have an instructor with you?

yes of course, it's the first time I've ever actually openly talked about the whole thing to anyone..

From memory part of your traction course is to isolate a dragging brake as part of your assessment. If memory serves you need to put into emergency otherwise the train could potentially roll. I know of a couple of drivers who didn’t pass traction thus did not continue on the course.

I'm glad that you've heard of other people., the attitude among the company was that this was unheard of and that I had performed very poorly and that they were glad to be rid of someone that was "a danger to the lives of others"

Seems very harsh to fail on that alone....maybe other factors leading up to it? Attitude etc?

long story short., I got the job 1st time and took a 10K pay cut to start driving., so I struggled to maintain repayments for 24K debt etc and ultimately had to work elsewhere alongside driving (not ideal and if you're not careful breaches Hidden)., this led to the belief that I wasn't committed to driving and that's the impression I instantly got from the depot manager., so my 3rd/4th DI was told to keep an eye on me and "watch out for the attitude", which I'm happy to say he had no problem with me and we successfully completed about 30 hours of driving before he went on holiday.. which got me to.. wait for it.. 42 hours, impossible to get a DI at the time.

I joined at a time when uniform was scarce if not non-existent.. I was spoken to about 7x, including by drivers who I went route learning with.. which is just embarrassing, but ultimately I had none, and this was a huge sticking point for all involved.

we were joined on 455 traction by a rather unpleasant railway old timer who was there for a refresher due to performance, she bollocked me for climbing into the cab wearing my bag (obviously a big no no.. and something I have never done again), but that ultimately was the beginning of the end as I broke down in another coach and struggled going forwards that week. I felt that I took onboard all the info well and fault finding went fine in practice., but when the assessment came, it was delivered in a Q&A style sat on seats, which was quite difficult as we had learnt moving around the train, through observation and doing stuff practically.. ultimately I bombed this section.

my second opportunity went very well albeit the group knowing "he's the guy that failed"., fantastic trainer, but knowing this was 'last chance saloon', I was incredibly nervous.. this time around questions were asked alongside the identification questions as we moved around the train (much more of what I was expecting from the 1st go)., we get to fault finding, and I do the first 2 fine, make a small mistake on the 3rd.. so already I'm thinking, "crap, ballsed it haven't I"., and on the 4th I forget to put the brake handle into emergency (I don't think that's written as a step in the long list of instructions which you had to follow implicitly).. leave the cab.. "f*ck.. what have I done.." so even if I was lucky enough to pass the assessment otherwise, that was it.

I have 3-ish years left before I'm allowed to drive again for the company., and I've struggled to even get invites to assessments since.. I wonder if this information is stored centrally and shared with all TOCs?

when I interviewed as a guard, I got the impression they were shocked at the story and they actually apologised on behalf of the company and all but offered me the position in that room. I'm now debt free and it was an amazing feeling being able to solely focus on training, but there was the expectation that I knew it all.. which I didn't, 2 years is a long time for skill fade.

 

[Stigy]

yes of course, it's the first time I've ever actually openly talked about the whole thing to anyone..

I'm glad that you've heard of other people., the attitude among the company was that this was unheard of and that I had performed very poorly and that they were glad to be rid of someone that was "a danger to the lives of others"

long story short., I got the job 1st time and took a 10K pay cut to start driving., so I struggled to maintain repayments for 24K debt etc and ultimately had to work elsewhere alongside driving (not ideal and if you're not careful breaches Hidden)., this led to the belief that I wasn't committed to driving and that's the impression I instantly got from the depot manager., so my 3rd/4th DI was told to keep an eye on me and "watch out for the attitude", which I'm happy to say he had no problem with me and we successfully completed about 30 hours of driving before he went on holiday.. which got me to.. wait for it.. 42 hours, impossible to get a DI at the time.

I joined at a time when uniform was scarce if not non-existent.. I was spoken to about 7x, including by drivers who I went route learning with.. which is just embarrassing, but ultimately I had none, and this was a huge sticking point for all involved.

we were joined on 455 traction by a rather unpleasant railway old timer who was there for a refresher due to performance, she bollocked me for climbing into the cab wearing my bag (obviously a big no no.. and something I have never done again), but that ultimately was the beginning of the end as I broke down in another coach and struggled going forwards that week. I felt that I took onboard all the info well and fault finding went fine in practice., but when the assessment came, it was delivered in a Q&A style sat on seats, which was quite difficult as we had learnt moving around the train, through observation and doing stuff practically.. ultimately I bombed this section.

my second opportunity went very well albeit the group knowing "he's the guy that failed"., fantastic trainer, but knowing this was 'last chance saloon', I was incredibly nervous.. this time around questions were asked alongside the identification questions as we moved around the train (much more of what I was expecting from the 1st go)., we get to fault finding, and I do the first 2 fine, make a small mistake on the 3rd.. so already I'm thinking, "crap, ballsed it haven't I"., and on the 4th I forget to put the brake handle into emergency (I don't think that's written as a step in the long list of instructions which you had to follow implicitly).. leave the cab.. "f*ck.. what have I done.." so even if I was lucky enough to pass the assessment otherwise, that was it.

I have 3-ish years left before I'm allowed to drive again for the company., and I've struggled to even get invites to assessments since.. I wonder if this information is stored centrally and shared with all TOCs?

when I interviewed as a guard, I got the impression they were shocked at the story and they actually apologised on behalf of the company and all but offered me the position in that room. I'm now debt free and it was an amazing feeling being able to solely focus on training, but there was the expectation that I knew it all.. which I didn't, 2 years is a long time for skill fade.

Sorry to hear that experience, but thanks for sharing. To be honest it doesn’t sound a million miles off my traction course. I think a lot of it is to do with the trainer, and a hell of a lot of pressure is put on trainees. I’ve never been one for being put on the spot and asked questions within a group environment. Most trainers are fantastic, but there’s always one or two who let the rest down.

 

[andyccfc]

Wow, so much pressure. I am not particularly good at the Q&A in a group type thing either, just instantly stall and get brain freeze. Doing things practically I like to think is a different story. It’s a bit like if someone asks you for a 5 digit door code.... stood in front of the door you type it in with your eyes closed but if your not you just go ‘errrr’!

I’ll be starting a trainee course soon and I must admit, the pressure of failure is a little unnerving.

 

[LCC106]

If in doubt, just ask! There's no such thing as a silly question, even if you end up getting ribbed for it. The only stupid question is the one you don't ask!

 

[Dieseldriver]

If in doubt, just ask! There's no such thing as a silly question, even if you end up getting ribbed for it. The only stupid question is the one you don't ask!

Also on that note, take advantage of the knowledgeable, approachable Drivers. You’ll find that they enjoy helping and want to answer your questions (no matter how stupid you may think the questions are)

 

[alanyoung165]

I left a platform on one yellow. Said out loud "one yellow, next signal red". Left the TCB in half power as a reminder of the red ahead. Then was worrying about power reduction and keeping a ten car train to 15mph over a crossover. I forgot about the red ahead. Opened up once we were clear and my DI picked me up on it. Came round the corner at about 40 and the signal pinged to green luckily. It was the point I realised for myself that all those SPAD risk videos you watch at the training school aren't just other people messing up. It can happen to anyone, including you. I now use a cue card for one yellow so I'm glad it happened.

Hello, what do you mean by cue card for one yellow??

 

[Timpg]

Also on that note, take advantage of the knowledgeable, approachable Drivers. You’ll find that they enjoy helping and want to answer your questions (no matter how stupid you may think the questions are)

Yep probably the greatest and most valuable source of information you can get!
I’m very fortunate that my depot is full of very experienced and very friendly colleagues that are more than happy to help and advice wherever possible!

 

[Stigy]

Hello, what do you mean by cue card for one yellow??

A card to remind you of your last signal. It’s often good to have little reminders of these things so you don’t forget. Different things work for different people. I tend to find just using effective Risk Triggered Commentary works for me. I don’t overdo it, but just talk to myself.

 

[LCC106]

Similarly a card with STOPPER and one with EXPRESS written on may help avoid fail to calls along the same route.