"Misuse" of Anytime Short Return ticket type by Transpennine Express

[mmh]

While looking up fares from Llandudno Junction to Newcastle, returning early in the morning, I was surprised to see only Anytime Short Returns are available, with no Anytime Return.

The fare setter is Transpennine Express, and this seems to be the case for every station pair I tried, including Holyhead and Pwllheli to Berwick on Tweed. That seems to be stretching any sensible definition of "short" to the limit, and certainly not in the spirit of how the National Rail website describes the purpose of short returns:

The Anytime Short Return has exactly the same terms and conditions as the normal Anytime Return in that there are no time restrictions, EXCEPT that the outward portion of the ticket is valid for ONE day and not FIVE days. The return validity remains the standard calendar month.

It's addition to the existing ticket range aims to give customers increased choice by offering a period Anytime return for use in the peak on short distance flows where traditionally only a Day ticket was available. This then provides both period options for Peak and Off Peak Travel.

 

[pemma]

Anytime Short Returns are also available on Northern routes where there's no Anytime Return. In those cases it seems they've replaced an Off Peak Return (that had no restrictions) with an Anytime Short. Perhaps a sensible move in naming terms, as it avoids an Off Peak Day Return having different restrictions for the outbound journey to the Off Peak Return.

 

[island]

I thought the main purpose of the anytime short return was to reduce misuse of the outbound portion as a 5 day season?

 

[Watershed]

While looking up fares from Llandudno Junction to Newcastle, returning early in the morning, I was surprised to see only Anytime Short Returns are available, with no Anytime Return.

The fare setter is Transpennine Express, and this seems to be the case for every station pair I tried, including Holyhead and Pwllheli to Berwick on Tweed. That seems to be stretching any sensible definition of "short" to the limit, and certainly not in the spirit of how the National Rail website describes the purpose of short returns:

The suggestion that this would be an additional product to offer more flexibility was rapidly disproven. Who could have foreseen that...?!

Several other operators also use SHRs - Northern I can understand, as most of their SHRs were previously just 8A SVRs, but LNER also did it on many of their shorter flows. Clearly the protection against ticket reuse was too attractive to resist.

 

[mmh]

Anytime Short Returns are also available on Northern routes where there's no Anytime Return. In those cases it seems they've replaced an Off Peak Return (that had no restrictions) with an Anytime Short. Perhaps a sensible move in naming terms, as it avoids an Off Peak Day Return having different restrictions for the outbound journey to the Off Peak Return.

That's sensible, for routes that have day tickets.

I thought the main purpose of the anytime short return was to reduce misuse of the outbound portion as a 5 day season?

For routes such as these, where there are no day tickets, and the risk of tickets being used as seasons is roughly zero, it does feel like misuse. What is "short" about Pwllheli to Berwick?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The Berwick upon Tweed -> Pwllheli "Anytime Short Return" is available for return travel within the month, rather than just 5 days, isn't it? So, the key impact will be as regards the one day validity of the outward journey, yes? (Making the product little different from the Off Peak Return, except for being able to use it midweek before 0900)?

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

To the layman, I'm not sure how distance comes into this. My interpretation of "short return" is in respect of the shorter validity, rather than distance.

Almost like an abbreviated form of Short Date Return, rather than Short Distance Return.

You can certainly read it both ways anyway.

 

[mmh]

To the layman, I'm not sure how distance comes into this. My interpretation of "short return" is in respect of the shorter validity, rather than distance.

The description of the ticket type on the National Rail website...

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I have found the bit you're referring to here:

Train Ticket Types | National Rail

Train tickets types explained – find out which ticket you need for your journey: Advance, Off-Peak, Anytime, Season ticket, Flexi Season ticket and more.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

But I suspect, like many others, I buy my tickets without scrolling through irrelevant websites. An app or train company journey planner will tell me what ticket is or isn't valid for my journey and give me an itinerary I can show in the rare event of any issue.

If I bought it at a self service ticket machine for example, I still maintain you can easily read it both ways.

 

[mmh]

I have found the bit you're referring to here:

I quoted this in my initial post!

But I suspect, like many others, I buy my tickets without scrolling through irrelevant websites. An app or train company journey planner will tell me what ticket is or isn't valid for my journey and give me an itinerary I can show in the rare event of any issue.

Well yes, obviously you can only buy tickets which exist. My suggestion is that the tickets which are available for these journeys are inappropriate. I must admit I'm struggling to understand what point you're trying to make here.

 

[Haywain]

I quoted this in my initial post!

Well yes, obviously you can only buy tickets which exist. My suggestion is that the tickets which are available for these journeys are inappropriate. I must admit I'm struggling to understand what point you're trying to make here.

Why are they inappropriate? How many people actually need 5 days of validity for their outward journey?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Why are they inappropriate? How many people actually need 5 days of validity for their outward journey?

Although, to be fair, Pwllheli to Berwick-upon-Tweed can be a tad tricky in just one day if you don't leave before midday, despite only the one change at Birmingham New Street normally being required.

 

[mmh]

Why are they inappropriate? How many people actually need 5 days of validity for their outward journey?

Perhaps nobody does? In that case that validity should be removed from anytime returns. Problem solved, no need for a different ticket type.

I'll hazard a guess that you're a back office railway employee? I can't see how anybody can justify these differences and anomalies. Your "it's how it is" dismissal is what I've learned to expect from those who are internal, so my apologies if you're an external apologist for such inconsistencies and nonsense.

 

[yorkie]

For the history of this matter, we need to go back to 2009; it was discussed on the forum at the time:

You are correct it was one of the changes sneaked in with Simplification but ATOC partly reversed the situation on tickets sold or valid after 16 March. After this date outward portions of Anytime Returns (First and Standard) would be valid for 5 days rather than the previous 1 day. The Ticket Collector blog addressed these issues (http://theticketcollector.wordpress.com/2009/03/04/anytime-return-u-turn/).

https://theticketcollector.wordpress.com/2009/03/04/anytime-return-u-turn/

ATOC has finally succumbed to the pressure businesses and individuals placed on to it after reducing the validity of the Anytime (previously Open) Return tickets. Before simplification both outward and return portions were valid for 1 month, however afterwards the outward portion was cut back to only being valid for a single day.

ATOC have now decided that the outward portion will be valid for 5 days on a trial period starting 16th March.

Amendment To Outward Portion Validity – Anytime Return
Following a review of Fares Simplification which took place last year, the validity of the outward portion of First & Standard Class Anytime Return tickets will be altered from ‘date on ticket’ to ‘five days’ (including date on ticket). For example, a First Class Anytime Return with an outward date of 20th March will be valid for outward travel until 24th March inclusive. The return portion will remain valid for one month from the date on the outward portion.
This change will apply to tickets sold and dated from 16th March. This will take place for a trial period and will be reviewed in September.
Your Ticket Issuing System will automatically be updated by your supplier to incorporate this change.
First & Standard Class Anytime Singles, and Anytime Day Singles & Returns remain valid on date shown only.
Kind regards
ATOC

Unfortunately, some TOCs didn't like the collective decision of ATOC so have decided to defy ATOC's decision in a sneaky way. And who is going to stop them?

 

[mmh]

For the history of this matter, we need to go back to 2009; it was discussed on the forum at the time:


https://theticketcollector.wordpress.com/2009/03/04/anytime-return-u-turn/

Unfortunately, some TOCs didn't like the collective decision of ATOC so have decided to defy ATOC's decision in a sneaky way. And who is going to stop them?

Thank you for digging those out, most informative!

@Watershed was clearly completely correct with his reply earlier. Who on earth indeed would've thought TOCs might use a change aimed at the passenger for their own benefit.

 

[Haywain]

I can't see how anybody can justify these differences and anomalies. Your "it's how it is" dismissal

Dismissal? I asked a question about your statement. But you choose to attack me rather than answer.

 

[Starmill]

Why are they inappropriate? How many people actually need 5 days of validity for their outward journey?

Why didn't they just change the outward validity of an Anytime Return to up to two days then, rather than messing around creating a new ticket type called "short distance"?

 

[mmh]

Dismissal? I asked a question about your statement. But you choose to attack me rather than answer.

Sigh. I did not attack. As I've said before, my very first post quotes the apparent reason for the existence of these tickets existing.

I would rather you explained why I'm wrong to think this ticket type is being misused by Transpennine Express.

 

[Haywain]

Sigh. I did not attack.

Looked like it to me.

I would rather you explained why I'm wrong to think this ticket type is being misused by Transpennine Express.

You’re entitled to an opinion, it’s one I dont entirely agree with.

Why didn't they just change the outward validity of an Anytime Return to up to two days then, rather than messing around creating a new ticket type called "short distance"?

I haven’t the faintest idea, it would have been easier and consistent with the Anytime Single.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I haven’t the faintest idea, it would have been easier and consistent with the Anytime Single.

Instead, for the Pwllheli->Berwick upon Tweed flow, there's now just the Anytime Day Single walk-up through ticket (and a few Advances)

 

[Paul Kelly]

So, the key impact will be as regards the one day validity of the outward journey, yes? (Making the product little different from the Off Peak Return, except for being able to use it midweek before 0900)?

This sounds wrong to me; the outward portion of an Off-Peak Return is valid for 2 days if the journey cannot be completed on the first day, whereas the outward portion of an Anytime Short Return is only valid for 1 day no matter what.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

This sounds wrong to me; the outward portion of an Off-Peak Return is valid for 2 days if the journey cannot be completed on the first day, whereas the outward portion of an Anytime Short Return is only valid for 1 day no matter what.

You may well be right.

BR Fares does however seem to indicate just the 1 day outward validity for both return product types.

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

 

[yorkie]

You may well be right.

BR Fares does however seem to indicate just the 1 day outward validity for both return product types.

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

Yes but providing you start the journey on day one, there is provision for a journey made on an Off Peak Return to resume the following day under the circumstances described:

Off-Peak Return | National Rail

Looking for Off-Peak Return? A portal into UK rail travel, including information on ticket purchase and promotions, train times and delays, and more.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

Off-Peak Return tickets are valid for outward travel on the date shown on the ticket and until 04:29 the following day.

If you cannot complete your journey on the same day you will be allowed to finish it the following day - see 'Break of journey' below. ...

This wording does not appear for an Anytime Short Return; it is unclear if this is intentional or not.

 

[lyndhurst25]

I have been moaning about this since SHRs were rolled out by Northern. It is ridiculous that the Off-Peak SVR product effectively has 2 days outward validity, compared the Anytime SHR’s one day.

And quite how SHRs are supposed to effectively cut down on ticket reuse fraud, I cannot fathom. Surely the serial ticket reuser would just buy two SHRs in opposite directions and just reuse the return portions?

 

[Wallsendmag]

I have been moaning about this since SHRs were rolled out by Northern. It is ridiculous that the Off-Peak SVR product effectively has 2 days outward validity, compared the Anytime SHR’s one day.

And quite how SHRs are supposed to effectively cut down on ticket reuse fraud, I cannot fathom. Surely the serial ticket reuser would just buy two SHRs in opposite directions and just reuse the return portions?

I was under the impression that EastCoast/VTEC rolled them out to introduce an overnight return between Doncaster and York/Leeds

 

[lyndhurst25]

I was under the impression that EastCoast/VTEC rolled them out to introduce an overnight return between Doncaster and York/Leeds

That is true. As stated in the first posting, they were introduced to be an additional product, to give a period return for short distance journeys where previously only day return fares existed. Soon afterwards Northern and others decided to misuse them across their networks and the rest is history.

 

[Wallsendmag]

That is true. As stated in the first posting, they were introduced to be an additional product, to give a period return for short distance journeys where previously only day return fares existed. Soon afterwards Northern and others decided to misuse them across their networks and the rest is history.

I know it’s true as I was involved in the roll out.

 

[Watershed]

I know it’s true as I was involved in the roll out.

Whilst SHRs were genuinely new for some flows, e.g. Doncaster-Leeds/York, there are also plenty of flows (including some fairly long distance ones) where East Coast converted existing SORs into SHRs, e.g. Grantham-Darlington or Doncaster-Alnmouth.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Or even Berwick upon Tweed to Pwllheli, as discussed upthread!

 

[Watershed]

Or even Berwick upon Tweed to Pwllheli, as discussed upthread!

Indeed. I think the point is well established, that LNER, Northern and TPE have all engaged in this practice to varying degrees.

In my view, if a journey is short enough to warrant an Anytime "Short Distance" Return then it's also short enough to warrant a Day Return. Of course if we applied that test, then around 80-90% of SHRs would have to be converted back to SORs!